Southron Ambitions

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

based on "everyone but Great Daenerys is bad" thinking if you ask me

Peasants and pitchforks can beat armored knights if they believe in their empress enough :\

24 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I am already suspicious of Robert and Rickard. I would not be surprised if they were planning something like that.  

Robert would most likely be too drunk and balls deep in some woman to have any time to plot. He's an idiot, too, and a talkative one at that. 

10 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Aerys' actions justified the rebellion regardless of if the rebels had previously considered getting involved in an uprising because the legitimacy of the Targaryen dynasty itself is based on its obligations to its lords, which includes providing them a fair trial before their peers. 

The lords at the time, before Robert's Rebellion, had no justification to plot. Burning criminals alive is fine to Westerosi lords, none of them complained about the poor burnt people besides Rickard. 

[Mystical]

Even if these ambitions existed, for which there is NO proof except fanon based on house/character hate...what does it matter to the current events? All the supposed movers and shakers of these supposed ambitions are all dead. Why would that have any effect on how one sees the currently alive characters, some who weren't even born then? If the argument is that if those ambitions are true, it changes anything about a House as a whole, I seriously doubt it. You won't find a House (especially the big ones) without dirt in their history.

[The Jingo]

10 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

The lords at the time, before Robert's Rebellion, had no justification to plot. Burning criminals alive is fine to Westerosi lords, none of them complained about the poor burnt people besides Rickard. 

Except Aerys didn't burn only random smallfolk criminals. He also burned minor lords that displeased him. 

Now, minor lords are indeed minor. They don't have much in the way of troops or cash to spend. But legally, they're of the same protected class as the Great Houses. So if Aerys was running around burning minor lords, he's already lost the right to rule, and any Southron Ambitions in that case is just people going carefully about building their revolt against tyranny. 

[Quoth the raven,]

On 11/8/2021 at 12:28 AM, The Jingo said:

Not really. Even if someone is guilty of a crime, you can't convict them of anything without a genuine trial with actual evidence presented. 

Aerys' actions justified the rebellion regardless of if the rebels had previously considered getting involved in an uprising because the legitimacy of the Targaryen dynasty itself is based on its obligations to its lords, which includes providing them a fair trial before their peers. 

A trial is not necessary because Brandon more than likely already admitted to his, his father's, and Robert's treasonous intent.  Aerys was justified in killing Brandon and Rickard for treason.  Just the plotting is treason enough.  Eddard had a duty to inform Aerys and turn his father and brother in for the crime of treason. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I hope we find out that Rickard was planning on marrying his firstborn grandson (who turned out to be Robb) to Asha, since Quellon was trying to bind the Iron Islands closer to Westeros anyway and since I think they would have made a lot of sense as a marriage alliance. Maybe a maester convinced him to marry the Piper girl, and maybe Victarion’s first wife was from the mainland too.

Some people think that whatever happened at Summerhall convinced the maesters that the Targs needed to be reigned in, but the interesting thing is that Egg had wanted to eschew incest entirely and marry his children to members of the great houses, so he was pretty much working from the same playbook.

I think this is a theory that we’re going to learn a lot more about in TWOW. And I also think Brandon was probably lying about wanting to marry Barbrey and had plenty of other women on the side. He sure moved on to Ashara rather quickly 

[WhatAnArtist!]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

And I also think Brandon was probably lying about wanting to marry Barbrey and had plenty of other women on the side

I'd love to see Barbrey's reaction to this knowledge. Just yet another reason for her to seethe about the Starks.

[EggBlue]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I hope we find out that Rickard was planning on marrying his firstborn grandson (who turned out to be Robb) to Asha, since Quellon was trying to bind the Iron Islands closer to Westeros anyway and since I think they would have made a lot of sense as a marriage alliance. Maybe a maester convinced him to marry the Piper girl, and maybe Victarion’s first wife was from the mainland too.

this makes total sense . both Quellon and Rickard were from distant somewhat isolated parts of the realm and they both wanted to change their relations with other parts. I used to wonder how a person with sane mind would send his/her daughter to marry into Iron Born!

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Some people think that whatever happened at Summerhall convinced the maesters that the Targs needed to be reigned in, but the interesting thing is that Egg had wanted to eschew incest entirely and marry his children to members of the great houses, so he was pretty much working from the same playbook.

there's a chance that it was even before Summerhall and after the Dance . Egg must have known about their vulnerable position both with Citadel + Faith and with great Lords whom they had not much connection to.

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

He sure moved on to Ashara rather quickly 

Lol. we don't know that yet. but sure seems like it!

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 11/22/2021 at 10:51 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I hope we find out that Rickard was planning on marrying his firstborn grandson (who turned out to be Robb) to Asha, since Quellon was trying to bind the Iron Islands closer to Westeros anyway and since I think they would have made a lot of sense as a marriage alliance. Maybe a maester convinced him to marry the Piper girl, and maybe Victarion’s first wife was from the mainland too.

Some people think that whatever happened at Summerhall convinced the maesters that the Targs needed to be reigned in, but the interesting thing is that Egg had wanted to eschew incest entirely and marry his children to members of the great houses, so he was pretty much working from the same playbook.

I think this is a theory that we’re going to learn a lot more about in TWOW. And I also think Brandon was probably lying about wanting to marry Barbrey and had plenty of other women on the side. He sure moved on to Ashara rather quickly 

To add to this, perhaps the maesters were even inspired by Egg's marriage plans for his children. He hoped to bind the others houses to House Targaryen and bolster their power, whereas the maesters hoped to bind the other houses together to oppose the Targaryens.

[rotting sea cow]

On 11/7/2021 at 8:53 PM, The Jingo said:

Arguably, the purpose of the STAB alliance doesn't have to be inherently a succession plot. I think a lot of people have run with the theory in order to try and villainize the rebels and rehabilitate the Targaryens, as well as try to justify Lyanna's and Rhaegar's behaviour.

However, less malignant explanations of Rickard's "Southron Ambitions" could be 

A) To tie the North to multiple Great Houses in order to give it more political weight that is leveraged to increase economic and political investment in the North, to better ensure Northern prosperity. 

b) To provide a counterweight of powerful lords that can contain the increasingly erratic Aerys. It is not that long ago that Aegon V was going around trying to increase the rights and conditions of the smallfolk at the expense of the lords of the realm.  

Pretty much. Option b) has always been my headcanon.

Also, other houses in the realm were also in the move. You see the unnamed princess of Dorne looking for high stakes marriages for her children with the Hightowers or with the Lannisters.

Similarly, in the Reach, there were a number of marriages between the most important houses tying them together, which had led to a pretty good control over them by the Tyrells.