AlaskanSandman Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Lets reconsider some of what we are told about the histories and the events of Westeros. As I see many who still believe the Andals to not be connected with the Long Night. Quote A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I “Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend." Lets consider this. Quote A Feast for Crows - Prologue The Lord's Sept joined in a moment later, then the Seven Shrines from their gardens across the Honeywine, and finally the Starry Sept that had been the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before Aegon landed at King's Landing. The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown When the Andals came, the Hightowers were amongst the first lords of Westeros to welcome them. "Wars are bad for trade," said Lord Dorian Hightower, when he set aside his wife of twenty years, the mother of his children, to take an Andal princess as his bride. His grandson Lord Damon (the Devout) was the first to accept the Faith. To honor the new gods, he built the first sept in Oldtown and six more elsewhere in his realm. When he died prematurely of a bad belly, Septon Robeson became regent for his newborn son, ruling Oldtown in all but name for the next twenty years and ultimately becoming the first High Septon. The boy he raised and trained, Lord Triston Hightower, raised the Starry Sept in his honor after his passing. Quote A Feast for Crows - Prologue Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted. The Glass Candles came to Old Town when the Andals had invaded most of Westeros Quote The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest The two queens smiled at one another and exchanged courtesies instead. Then Lady Sharra sent for the three crowns (her own regent's coronet, her son's small crown, and the Falcon Crown of Mountain and Vale that the Arryn kings had worn for a thousand years), and surrendered them to Queen Visenya, along with the swords of her garrison. And it was said afterward that the little king flew thrice about the summit of the Giant's Lance and landed to find himself a little lord. Thus did Visenya Targaryen bring the Vale of Arryn into her brother's realm. Quote The World of Ice and Fire - The Vale: House Arryn The true tale of House Arryn contains neither giants nor griffins nor huge falcons, yet from the day Ser Artys first donned the Falcon Crown to the present, they have rightly held a storied place in the history of the Seven Kingdoms. The Arryns have only been ruling for about 1000 years before Aegon conquered. Quote A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I "Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend." The Blackwoods coming south after the Starks booted them out. Quote The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter Even this did not give Winterfell dominion over all the North. Many other petty kings remained, ruling over realms great and small, and it would require thousands of years and many more wars before the last of them was conquered. Yet one by one, the Starks subdued them all, and during these struggles, many proud houses and ancient lines were extinguished forever. Amongst the houses reduced from royals to vassals we can count the Flints of Breakstone Hill, the Slates of Blackpool, the Umbers of Last Hearth, the Lockes of Oldcastle, the Glovers of Deepwood Motte, the Fishers of the Stony Shore, the Ryders of the Rills...and mayhaps even the Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter (certain runic records support this claim, if Maester Barneby's translations can be trusted). Meaning the Starks and the Long Night happened roughly 1500-2000 years before Aegon Conquered. With the Andals making early invasions that broke the Pact, and ending their invasions within 500-1000 years. Its pretty implied that the Andals were around during the Age of Heroes as stated by the legends. So lets compare some other key events in Westeros. Like the War Across the Waters. Quote The World of Ice and Fire - The Vale How far these tales can be trusted is uncertain, but it is worth noting that these atrocities, whilst oft mentioned in accounts of the war written by men from the Vale, go largely unmentioned in Northern chronicles. It cannot be denied, however, that the rule of the Northmen was onerous enough to the Sistermen for them to send their surviving lords scurrying to the Eyrie to plead for help from the King of Mountain and Vale. This help King Mathos Arryn, Second of His Name, was pleased to provide, upon the condition that the Sistermen agreed to do fealty to him and his descendants thereafter, and acknowledge the right of the Eyrie to rule over them. When his lady wife questioned the wisdom of involving the Vale in this War Across the Water, His Grace famously replied that he would sooner have a pirate than a wolf for his neighbor. The king set sail for Sisterton with a hundred warships. He never returned, but his sons carried on the war after him. For a thousand years, Winterfell and the Eyrie contested for the rule of the Three Sisters. The Worthless War, some dubbed it. Time and time again the fighting seemed at an end, only to flare up once more a generation later. The islands changed hands more than a dozen times. Thrice the Northmen landed on the Fingers. The Arryns sent a fleet up the White Knife to burn the Wolf's Den, and the Starks replied by attacking Gulltown and burning hundreds of ships in their wroth when the city walls proved too strong for them. In the end the Arryns emerged victorious, and the Three Sisters have remained part of the Vale ever since, save for the brief reign of Queen Marla Sunderland in the immediate aftermath of Aegon's Conquest; she was deposed at the sight of the approaching Braavosi fleet that the Northmen had hired at King Aegon's command. Her brother swore homage to the Targaryens, and she herself ended her days as a silent sister. So the War lasted 1000 years before Aegon's Conquest. Quote The exact line of succession is as yet unknown. King Artys I Arryn, called the Falcon Knight and also conflated with the Winged Knight, the first King of Mountain and Vale King Roland I Arryn King Osric V Arryn King Roland II Arryn King Robin Arryn King Hugh Arryn, called the Fat King Hugo Arryn, called the Hopeful King Alester II Arryn King Mathos II Arryn King Osgood Arryn, called the Old Falcon King Oswin Arryn, called the Talon King Oswell I Arryn King Ronnel Arryn, called the King Who Flew, the last lawful King of Mountain and Vale King Jonos Arryn, who rose in rebellion against King Aenys Targaryen and declared himself King of Mountain and Vale With maybe 500 to 1000 years of rulers before Mathos II Arryn. (Being generous based on the list) This does not conflict with the Andals first invading 2000 to 1500 years ago, with the securing Westeros by 1000 years before Aegon Conquered. So lets consider one of the most problematic people and events, Qhored Hoare. Quote The exact number of high kings or driftwood kings chosen by the kingsmoot is unknown and their line of succession is rife with contradictions. The Grey King, the first of the kings on the Iron Islands. Urras Greyiron, known as Urras Ironfoot, the first high king since the Grey King. Erich I Greyiron, who was deposed by Galon Whitestaff. Regnar Drumm, known as Raven-feeder. Sylas Flatnose Harrag Hoare Loron Greyjoy, known as the Old Kraken. Qhored Hoare, known as Qhored the Cruel, expanded the rule of the ironborn over the entire western coast of Westeros Theon III Greyjoy Balon V Greyjoy Erich V Harlaw Harron Harlaw Joron I Blacktyde Urragon III Greyiron Urrathon IV Goodbrother, known as Badbrother. Torgon Greyiron, known as Torgon the Latecomer. Urragon IV Greyiron Urron Greyiron, known as Urron Redhand, the last High King of the Iron Islands. Known Iron Kings/Kings of the Iron Islands Urron Redhand made the kingship hereditary and took the simpler title of King of the Iron Islands or Iron King. Urron Greyiron, known as Urron Redhand. Rognar II Greyiron, the last Greyiron king. Harras Hoare, known as Harras Stump-Hand. Wulfgar Hoare, known as Wulfgar the Widowmaker. Horgan Hoare, known as Horgan Priestkiller. Fergon Hoare, known as Fergon the Fierce. Othgar I Hoare, known as Othgar the Soulless. Othgar II Hoare, known as Othgar the Demonlover. Craghorn Hoare, known as Craghorn of the Red Smile. Harmund I Hoare, known as Harmund the Host. Harmund II Hoare, known as Harmund the Haggler. Harmund III Hoare, known as Harmund the Handsome. Hagon the Heartless, Harmund III's brother. Aubrey Crakehall, who declared himself King of the Iron Islands after casting down Hagon the Heartless Qhorwyn Hoare, known as Qhorwyn the Cunning. Harwyn Hoare, known as Harwyn Hardhand, conqueror of the riverlands Halleck Hoare Harren Hoare, known as Harren the Black, builder of Harrenhal and last King of the Isles and the Rivers. The list tend to place Qhored before the rule of the Grey Iron's. Quote King Rodrik Stark is said to have won the island in a wrestling match and granted it to House Mormont, although some scholars are skeptical of the story. This presumably occurred in the century after Gerold Lannister, King of the Rock, raided the Iron Islands, when weaker driftwood kings lost most ironborn possessions along western Westeros. Quote History After the death of the Old Kraken, Loron Greyjoy, King Rodrik is claimed to have won Bear Island from the ironborn and granted the island to House Mormont. The histories of the north claim that Rodrik won Bear Island back from the ironborn in a wrestling match. Some maesters believe there is truth to this tale, for the driftwood kings were often moved to prove their prowess and right to their crown with feats of strength. Other scholars question the tale and suggest that Rodrik had won the island back with words. After his death, Rodrik's sons and grandsons battled the ironborn for Cape Kraken, though the resulting battles were less decisive. How likely is Qhored before the Andals? Using the Lannisters as a base? Quote Lann the Clever, legendary founding ancestor of House Lannister during the Age of Heroes. Posthumously considered King of the Rock. King Loreon Lannister, "the Lion", the first true known Lannister king. King Tybolt Lannister, "the Thunderbolt", who made sure that the first Andal warlords in the westerlands met a bloody end. When the 3rd listed Lannister King is already dealing with Andals. Meaning even if Qhored is in the time of Gerold Lannister, its still after the Andals invaded. Quote Harmund I Hoare, known as Harmund the Host, was a King of the Iron Islands from House Hoare. The Hoare kings of his era were opposed by the priests of the Drowned God because of their support for the Faith of the Seven, discouraging of reaving, and promotion of trade. History Harmund I was the first literate iron king and a man fond of books. From his seat on Great Wyk he welcomed travelers and merchants to the Iron Islands. He also protected septons and septas of the Faith. Lets also consider that it wasn't till Harmund I, did any Iron born even become Literate. Making any before him and their dating not reliable. Quote Qhored I Hoare, known as Qhored the Cruel,, was one of the greatest High Kings of the Iron Islands. While he is usually associated with House Hoare, some accounts state he was actually of House Greyiron or House Blacktyde. History The young Qhored sacked Oldtown, taking thousands of women as captives. When he was thirty, Qhored defeated King Bernarr II Justman and took his three sons as hostages. Three years later he murdered the boys in the Bloody Keep of Pyke, crushed Bernarr's vengeful army, and drowned the river king as a sacrifice to the Drowned God, putting an end to House Justman. Qhored though is stated to have ended House Justman who had formed after the Andal Invasion. Quote House Justman was a noble house from the riverlands who ruled as Kings of the Trident (or Kings of the Rivers and the Hills). According to semi-canon sources they blazoned their arms with golden scales on white, a double tressure blue. History House Justman was founded after the Andal invasion by Benedict Rivers, a bastard from Houses Blackwood and Bracken. Over a period of thirty years Benedict managed to defeat the petty kings of the Trident, after which he crowned himself. As he was a wise king who came to be known as Benedict the Just, his house became known as House Justman. King Benedict I Justman extended his domains to Maidenpool and the Neck, while his son Benedict II acquired Duskendale, Rosby, and the mouth of the Blackwater Rush. The 1000 years of Grey Iron rule, is either not as long as they say since they are illiterate any ways, or it was 1000 years of Grey Iron rule from the time the Andals first arrived to when the Andals hit the Iron Islands. Either way, it does not conflict with Qhored being during the Andal times and after Grey Iron 1000 year rule. The Fact that there are alot of kings before House GreyIron would back up the Idea that House Hightower were sea faring people akin to the Iron Born and arriving around the same time. As Hightowers predate the first men. Quote Urron Greyiron, known as Urron Redhand and Urron of Orkmont, was a member of House Greyiron. He was the first King of the Iron Islands to make the throne hereditary, five thousand years before the War of the Five Kings. Contents [hide] 1 History 2 Recent Events 2.1 A Feast for Crows 3 Quotes 4 References History Urron was the salt king of Orkmont during the rule of his great-uncle, Urragon IV Greyiron, who had assumed the title High King of the Iron Islands without being chosen in a kingsmoot. It was the dying Urragon's wish for Urron to succeed him, but the priests of the Drowned God were determined not to lose the power of kingmaking for a third time after Urragon's assumption of the throne and, before that, Torgon Greyiron's usurpation from Urrathon IV Goodbrother. Urron put an end to the institution of kingsmoot when he descended with his axemen on Nagga's Hill on Old Wyk, slaying all captains, the thirteen salt and rock kings, and half a hundred priests and prophets assembled for the choosing. Urron made the high kingship hereditary. Calling himself simply King of the Iron Islands, Urron had his crown be made of black iron instead of the traditional driftwood. During Urron's reign of twenty-two years, the rulers of the various Iron Islands were reduced to lords, and several ancient lines that refused to bend the knee were extinguished. Along with the kingsmoot, Galon Whitestaff's decree against ironborn making war upon each other ended. Urron Redhand and his descendants had to deal with half a dozen major rebellions and at least two major thrall uprisings. House Greyiron is said to have ruled the islands for a thousand years, until the coming of the Andals. So shortly after the Andals hit the Iron Islands, Aegon came and invaded as there are not many Hoare Kings till Aegon came. Quote The young Qhored sacked Oldtown, taking thousands of women as captives. When he was thirty, Qhored defeated King Bernarr II Justman and took his three sons as hostages. Three years later he murdered the boys in the Bloody Keep of Pyke, crushed Bernarr's vengeful army, and drowned the river king as a sacrifice to the Drowned God, putting an end to House Justman. This is actually important, as the Banner's of House Hoare show them to rule the Maesters as indicated by the Raven on their sigil. Along with the Arbor, and Bear Island. Suggesting that Harren the Black's family was controlling the Maesters and Old Town. Quote History Harrenhal Harren was born to House Hoare, the ruling house of the Iron Islands. He was the grandson of King Harwyn Hardhand, who extended the ironborn rule over the riverlands from the Neck to the Blackwater Rush, and the son of King Halleck Hoare. Harren's brother rose to become Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Even controlling so far as the Wall and the Night's Watch. Then Aegon invades and changes everything. Aegon, who has a sept on Dragons Stone. Aegon who visits Old Town before conquering Westeros. Old Town, which is held by House Hoare and does not take the field against Aegon the Conqueror. Im guessing the Hightowers invited Aegon's invasion to fend off the Iron Born threat. Something that is now growing in the absence of any Targaryens. Quote The Isle of Ravens is an isle located inside the Citadel in Oldtown. A weathered wooden drawbridge links the isle to the bank of the Honeywine river. The Ravenry, the oldest building in the Citadel, is a castle on the isle. As the name suggests, ravens are housed there. There are separate rookeries, the white in the west tower and the black in the north tower, as the two colors of ravens quarrel. History In the Age of Heroes the Ravenry was supposedly the stronghold of a pirate lord who sat there robbing ships as they came down the Honeywine. The drawbridge has not been raised in living memory. With One Eye Euron seeking to hit Old Town and having had a Glass Candle Quote A Feast for Crows - Samwell V "What feeds the flame?" asked Sam. "What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?" "We would have no more need of ravens." Opposition to Bloodraven, or ally? Quote A Game of Thrones - Catelyn XI Catelyn knelt and took her father's hand in hers. It was a big hand, but fleshless now, the bones moving loosely under the skin, all the strength gone from it. "You should have told me," she said. "A rider, a raven …" "Riders are taken, questioned," he answered. "Ravens are brought down …" A spasm of pain took him, and his fingers clutched hers hard. "The crabs are in my belly … pinching, always pinching. Day and night. They have fierce claws, the crabs. Maester Vyman makes me dreamwine, milk of the poppy … I sleep a lot … but I wanted to be awake to see you, when you came. I was afraid … when the Lannisters took your brother, the camps all around us … I was afraid I would go, before I could see you again … I was afraid …" The Crabs Quote A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain "We shall have no king but from the kingsmoot." The Damphair stood. "No godless man—" "—may sit the Seastone Chair, aye." Euron glanced about the tent. "As it happens I have oft sat upon the Seastone Chair of late. It raises no objections." His smiling eye was glittering. "Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air . . . I know them all. I have seen their peoples garland them with flowers, and shed the blood of goats and bulls and children in their names. And I have heard the prayers, in half a hundred tongues. Cure my withered leg, make the maiden love me, grant me a healthy son. Save me, succor me, make me wealthy . . . protect me! Protect me from mine enemies, protect me from the darkness, protect me from the crabs inside my belly, from the horselords, from the slavers, from the sellswords at my door. Protect me from the Silence." He laughed. "Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, Damphair, but I have served ten thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray." Considering the time line and taking things into account, Imo, a more interesting picture is painted involving the Iron Born that spans from their Mythic Grey King, to Qhored Hoare holding Old Town, to Harren the Black and his brother holding most of Westeros till Aegon arrived. Was House Hoare preparring against the Dragons? Valyrian steel was making its way into Westeros except for to the Iron Born, who have to take one from House Rein. (Red Rein) Did the Hightowers welcome the Dragons? Only to worry they might have ended them in the Dance of the Dragons? What is Lord Leyton doing up in his Hightower. Talking to Euron via Glass Candles? Watching him? Quote A Feast for Crows - Prologue A hush fell over the torchlit terrace. Armen sighed and shook his head. Mollander began to laugh. The Sphinx studied Leo with his big black eyes. Roone looked lost. Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted. Reconsidering the timeline, the Andal Invasion during the Age of Heroes, Iron Born exansion to the Wall and Old Town, and Glass Candles, along with Valyrians. What do you think is going on? Quote The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals The clans of the Mountains of the Moon are clearly descendants of the First Men who did not bend the knee to the Andals and so were driven into the mountains. Furthermore, there are similarities in their customs to the customs of the wildlings beyond the Wall—such as bride-stealing, a stubborn desire to rule themselves, and the like—and the wildlings are indisputably descended from the First Men. As with the First Men before them, the Andals proved bitter enemies to the remaining children. To their eyes, the children worshipped strange gods and had strange customs, and so the Andals drove them out of all the deep woods the Pact had once given them. Weakened and grown insular over the years, the children lacked whatever advantages they had once had over the First Men. And what the First Men could never succeed in doing—eradicating the children entirely—the Andals managed to achieve in short order. Some few children may have fled to the Neck, where there was safety amidst the bogs and crannogs, but if they did, no trace of them remains. It is possible that a few survived on the Isle of Faces, as some have written, under the protection of the green men, whom the Andals never succeeded in destroying. But again, no definitive proof has ever been found. Quote The World of Ice and Fire - The Vale Moreover, the Vale and its surrounding peaks were divided into a score of petty kingdoms when the first Andals began wading ashore, with the seven-pointed star painted (or carved, in some cases) on their chests. Riven by ancient enmities, the kings of the First Men did not unite against the invaders when first they appeared but rather made pacts and alliances with them, seeking to use the newcomers in their wars against one another. (A familiar folly that was to be repeated time and time again as the Andals spread out across Westeros). What was the Pact? Quote The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Coming of First Men Regardless, the children of the forest fought as fiercely as the First Men to defend their lives. Inexorably, the war ground on across generations, until at last the children understood that they could not win. The First Men, perhaps tired of war, also wished to see an end to the fighting. The wisest of both races prevailed, and the chief heroes and rulers of both sides met upon the isle in the Gods Eye to form the Pact. Giving up all the lands of Westeros save for the deep forests, the children won from the First Men the promise that they would no longer cut down the weirwoods. All the weirwoods of the isle on which the Pact was forged were then carved with faces so that the gods could witness the Pact, and the order of green men was made afterward to tend to the weirwoods and protect the isle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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