Arya Stark's height and build

[Lady Dacey]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:54 PM, AryaRegina said:

we do learn in ASOS that she’s small for her age at around 4 feet tall,

I do not think we can infer such precise mesurement just from from the comments regarding the Ghost's height and Arya's own. Actually, I think we should take most numbers presented to us by POVs with a grain of salt. They are 'guesstimates', at best. And when they come from a child's POV they're even less realiable. The thing is, if Arya is 4 feet tall in ASOS, she had to be even shorter, if only by a little, in Clash, right? Feet confuse me to no end so I'll stick to metric. 4 feet tall is around 1,20m. This is my son's height, he is a tall six-year-old. In Clash, Arya V, just before Arya and Gendry are captured by the mountain's men, we get this passage:

Quote

Arya had to scamper to keep up. Gendry was five years older and a foot taller than she was, and long of leg as well.

That would make Gendry only about 1,50m. You think so? That does not add up, not at all. Gendry is constantly said to be tall and strong for his age. He has a beard 'thick as and black briar' in Clash, which means he's at least in puberty already. Does it make sense for him to be only 5 feet tall? I'd say not at all. That is not to say that the difference between them is indeed one foot and therefore Arya must be over four feet tall in Clash already, it's only to point out that these numbers don't mean much as it is. They are there only to give us a vague notion of size, not to be a true mesure of a character's height. Maybe Arya is indeed four feet tall and Gendry is taller than her by much more than one foot. Maybe the Ghost of High Heart is under three feet and Arya but Arya is taller than her by more than a foot. We can't know for certain.  I do not think Arya actually used a stadiometer to gauge her own height or no one else's, not the Ghost of Hight Heart's nor Gendry's. 

What we can say for certain, I believe, is that Arya's height is below average for her age and sex. This does not seem to be connected to undernourishment, as she's presented that way when we first meet her in Winterfell. It might have been aggravated due to malnourishment, but due to her age and the amount of time she goes without good food (not long stretches) it's more likely she'll undergo wasting (low weight for height) rather than stunting (low height for age). I'm speaking from a real-world standpoint, of course. Maybe GRRM does not care for that. I on the other hand deal with classifying children according to the WHO's weight-for-age curve on a daily basis. My guess is Arya would be around -1 z-score in the height-for-age graph (i.e. the lowest 15th percentile, meaning 85% of all kids her age and sex are taller than her). That would make her, at age 9, around 126cm (median is 132cm). At 11 she would be 137cm (median is 145cm).  

Of course a girl's height before she hits puberty does not have to have a huge impact in her adult stature. We can safely say 9yo Arya has not yet started puberty, as she can pass for a boy. Puberty is a process, not an event, and for girls it begins months or even years before menarche. Puberty in girls is regarded as 'started' when breast develpment initiates. This usually coincides with a 'growth spurt', not as dramatic as boy's, but relevant nonetheless - about 8 cm per year is what is expected in the years leading up to menarche. This is probably what Arya is experiencing when she says her legs are growing as the blind girl in Braavos. It's common to grow at least 5 to 7cm after menarche, but than again we should take into account that undernourishment and low bodyfat will considerably delay menarche, giving a girl's body more time to grow in height in the meantime. Another thing to consider is that girls who have halthy but early menache grow even more after they first start cycling. There are a lot of variables in reaching one's genetic potential when it comes to stature. 

Ok i'm rambling. Sorry for that. I am sure Arya has a light build and is not the tallest of the bunch, but she does not stand out to me as a particularly short person, not like Rohanne Webber was for exemple. She is problably below average, but not by much. People don't usually call atention to her height, only to her built (she is not 'tiny' or 'short' in other people's description, only 'skinny' and 'small'.). 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The work to bad food ratio was still bad though and although she was in HH for like 6 months (give or take) a decent amount was as cupbearer so I think her work to food improved then.

Anyway, I don't think any of this stunted her growth (I think it made her way stronger)

I do believe she ate a much better fare as Roose Bolton's cupbearer then and Weese's underling, but I have to point out it it simply absurd (not to say borderline disrespectiful) to state that forced labour and malnourishment makes anyone stronger. Just look at true historical events when people were put under such circunstances and see what happened to them. Arya makes it clear that stealing from the kitchens is not a habit (that is why she is so tempted) and she often goes to bed hungry. Other than that, her diet is specially poor in protein, which is a really big deal for kids. Even if she was getting a decent amount of calories (which she didn't) the low-protein meals she ate severely prohibits the synthesis  of new tissues in the body, be it muscle or anything else. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk. She's not weasel. The times in between Yorens death and Harrenhall were bad, that's like a couple weeks at most. Then after leaving Harrenhall but before being abducted by Harwin was also bad but also less then ten days. She ate full meals most for most of those eighteen months, slept on a bed and everything. 

Even the times with Yoren weren't great when it came to food. They had to forage for it in a war zone. She caught a rabbit, so Yoren gave her a whole leg that she shared with Gendry, but the others (IIRC they were about 19 in the group) got a spoonful, which is nowhere near enough for growing boys or grown men. The last good meal she had was at the Ivy Inn.

After Yoren died, she ate bugs and worms and acorn paste, sometimes she had only water and acorn and she went days without eating anything.

Arya was on the road for months before she landed at Harrenhal, where she did eat much better. Arya's journey started on the day she fled the Red Keep and landed in Flea Bottom where she wasn't exactly fed and she spent maybe a couple of weeks there before Yoren found her. 

I think those months were enough to stunt her growth for a bit.

[Hugorfonics]

21 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

but I have to point out it it simply absurd (not to say borderline disrespectiful) to state that forced labour and malnourishment makes anyone stronger. Just look at true historical events when people were put under such circunstances and see what happened to them

Didn't mean any disrespect, it's just that as kid (14-15) I basically had to do forced labor and often went to bed hungry (oh happy times lol). I didn't get super brolic or anything but I was kinda weak and small before, but yea, puberty is probably the real reason.

(I certainly did eat better then Arya though, even if I didn't think it was enough there was still like protein and stuff (mostly lol))

11 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Even the times with Yoren weren't great when it came to food. They had to forage for it in a war zone. She caught a rabbit, so Yoren gave her a whole leg that she shared with Gendry, but the others (IIRC they were about 19 in the group) got a spoonful, which is nowhere near enough for growing boys or grown men. The last good meal she had was at the Ivy Inn.

The rabbit seemed like an extra treat for her, not the meal for the day

Quote

Here farmland gave way to forest, the villages and holdfasts were smaller and farther apart, the hills higher and the valleys deeper. Food grew harder to come by. In the city, Yoren had loaded up the wagons with salt fish, hard bread, lard, turnips, sacks of beans and barley, and wheels of yellow cheese, but every bite of it had been eaten. Forced to live off the land, Yoren turned to Koss and Kurz, who'd been taken as poachers. He would send them ahead of the column, into the woods, and come dusk they would be back with a deer slung between them on a pole or a brace of quail swinging from their belts. The younger boys would be set to picking blackberries along the road, or climbing fences to fill a sack with apples if they happened upon an orchard.

Arya was a skilled climber and a fast picker, and she liked to go off by herself. One day she came across a rabbit, purely by happenstance.

It doesn't sound like a banquet, but it doesn't sound like theyre going hungry either

11 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

After Yoren died, she ate bugs and worms and acorn paste, sometimes she had only water and acorn and she went days without eating anything.

Yuck! Lol. Yea that sucked, but it reads like a few weeks at most

11 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Arya was on the road for months before she landed at Harrenhal,

Idk. Could she have survived that? 

(So time measuring is what we're advised not to do because GRRM doesn't seem to care and despite that, we do care lol so our main (and extremely flawed) tool is comparing ones chapter to another POVs. Again, mad flawed)

Ok so 2 chapters before Arya gets bagged Tyrion tells three advisors different things. There's a Tyrion chapter directly after this (followed by Bran Cat Jon Theon) and then Tyrion again where he tortures Pycelle for being an awful advisor. The following chapter Arya reaches Harrenhall.

So my thinking is Tyrion's scheme takes less then a week to come in fruition (because it's Pycelle) which would mean Arya was hanging with Tickler for about a week.

(I know, flawed. But I don't think it was months)

12 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Arya's journey started on the day she fled the Red Keep and landed in Flea Bottom where she wasn't exactly fed and she spent maybe a couple of weeks there before Yoren found her. 

Very true.

12 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think those months were enough to stunt her growth for a bit.

Could be

[Nevets]

In terms of her height, Arya is not described as being particularly tall or particularly short, so I'm guessing she is roughly average height for her age, whatever that may be.  As for her weight, she was described as being skinny even before she hit the road.  Given she has spent most of her life being well-fed, I expect that is more being wiry and agile than anything else.

While she did not eat well during her time in Flea Bottom and the Riverlands, she was well-fed before then, and since, especially in Braavos.  I have doubts that her lack of good food on the run was either severe enough or long enough to do lasting damage.  There is no indication she was on a starvation diet, just an inadequate one, and it was for under a year.  She has been in Braavos almost that long, so is likely back to normal weight. 

I doubt her size will affect her story, though.  In terms of fighting ability, her agility will probably help, but her small size will mean that if she gets into a real fight with anyone older, she will get the daylights beat out of her.  She's gotten by on surprise and luck, and that won't last forever. 

In terms of appearance, I am more interested in whether she becomes pretty or not (my guess is yes), and how puberty affects her shape (probably not much), not to mention her attitudes and interests.  That sort of thing will affect her story more than her size will, I expect. 

[AryaRegina]

On 4/17/2022 at 10:30 PM, Hugorfonics said:

For sure, but she can be inspiring too

Definitely! That she is able to go on, despite all the horrors she experience and witness, and still has a kind heart to the innocent (like feeding Sam in Braavos) is what makes her my favourite character. She is very inspiring.

On 4/18/2022 at 2:30 AM, Lady Dacey said:

(...)

Thank you for bringing the Gendry quote up, it had completely slipped my mind. That muddles it, since both height comparisons can't be correct at once.
Aaah, why would GRRM bring in measurements if they don't matter

We know Arya fits the clothes of a 7 year old child at 10, and is mistaken to be two years younger than she is (by the Hound, who did spend years guarding a child, and witnessed Joffrey and his siblings grow up).
So I think that means she is small for a 10 year old.

And thank you so much for the statistics and facts, that's really interesting!
I do think Arya will keep growing, and that she will at least reach 5ft/152cm (and that's the 10th percentile for adult women, right?).

14 hours ago, Nevets said:

I doubt her size will affect her story, though.  In terms of fighting ability, her agility will probably help, but her small size will mean that if she gets into a real fight with anyone older, she will get the daylights beat out of her.  She's gotten by on surprise and luck, and that won't last forever. 

The fact her being small makes her not much of a fighter is kind of what made me create this thread.
I've seen several people thinking her story won't amount to anything than being a warrior, that she's the brawn to Sansa's brain, that her story will end with her being a Kingsguard/Queensguard, that she will fulfil her "dream" of becoming a knight (she never even wanted to be a knight, that was Bran) etc etc.
And I don't understand that at all, she's small and skinny, not much of a physical fighter.
As you said she's gotten by on surprise and luck (as well as quick thinking), not brute strength.
In Braavos they've mostly trained her mind (languages, acting, poison and potions, information gathering, lying and hearing lies), not fighting skills.

So, I really don't believe her role in the story will be as a warrior or guard, I think instead she will use her magic to help in the war of the dawn (the wolfpack is a confirmed Chekov's gun after all), and then later on, be in a position that will help the smallfolk with everything she's learnt (maybe as Master of Whisperers for King Bran of the North? Or a completely new position, so all of her skills can be used to the best effect, who knows).

[Nevets]

21 hours ago, AryaRegina said:

Definitely! That she is able to go on, despite all the horrors she experience and witness, and still has a kind heart to the innocent (like feeding Sam in Braavos) is what makes her my favourite character. She is very inspiring.

Thank you for bringing the Gendry quote up, it had completely slipped my mind. That muddles it, since both height comparisons can't be correct at once.
Aaah, why would GRRM bring in measurements if they don't matter

We know Arya fits the clothes of a 7 year old child at 10, and is mistaken to be two years younger than she is (by the Hound, who did spend years guarding a child, and witnessed Joffrey and his siblings grow up).
So I think that means she is small for a 10 year old.

And thank you so much for the statistics and facts, that's really interesting!
I do think Arya will keep growing, and that she will at least reach 5ft/152cm (and that's the 10th percentile for adult women, right?).

The fact her being small makes her not much of a fighter is kind of what made me create this thread.
I've seen several people thinking her story won't amount to anything than being a warrior, that she's the brawn to Sansa's brain, that her story will end with her being a Kingsguard/Queensguard, that she will fulfil her "dream" of becoming a knight (she never even wanted to be a knight, that was Bran) etc etc.
And I don't understand that at all, she's small and skinny, not much of a physical fighter.
As you said she's gotten by on surprise and luck (as well as quick thinking), not brute strength.
In Braavos they've mostly trained her mind (languages, acting, poison and potions, information gathering, lying and hearing lies), not fighting skills.

So, I really don't believe her role in the story will be as a warrior or guard, I think instead she will use her magic to help in the war of the dawn (the wolfpack is a confirmed Chekov's gun after all), and then later on, be in a position that will help the smallfolk with everything she's learnt (maybe as Master of Whisperers for King Bran of the North? Or a completely new position, so all of her skills can be used to the best effect, who knows).

I don't really see her as much of a killer either, and I would be disappointed if Martin went that route.  I doubt he will though.

I'm not convinced the Faceless Men are intent on making her one, either.  When I look at her training, I see the sort of thing you would give a spy or undercover detective (FBI, CIA, et. al): observation and surveillance, making friends and cultivating sources, finding and reporting information.  I think they intend for her to be an agent for them in Westeros, providing information, shelter, and other assistance. 

She is also a born leader.  She makes friends easily, gathers a following,  and cares about other people.  I would like to see her do something along those lines.  Of course, it would probably mean becoming a Lady.  Oh well, nothing is free. 

[Hugorfonics]

On 4/19/2022 at 9:21 AM, AryaRegina said:

Definitely! That she is able to go on, despite all the horrors she experience and witness, and still has a kind heart to the innocent (like feeding Sam in Braavos) is what makes her my favourite character. She is very inspiring.

Kind heart to the guilty too. When she came across the Mad Huntsmans prisoners. Murderers rapists thieves and all around scum, but those crows cages they were in was straight cruel and unusual. Giving them water just melts my heart, she's phenomenal. 

She's not my favorite character, or even my favorite Stark girl, but still, I have nothing but love for her. 

Ive deadass said to myself "fear cuts deeper then swords" multiple times in my life, when I felt a little anxious or whatever. It works. 

Also, "I'm done playing with wooden teeth" is such a badass sentence

[Groo]

On 4/17/2022 at 9:30 PM, Lady Dacey said:

That would make Gendry only about 1,50m. You think so? That does not add up, not at all. Gendry is constantly said to be tall and strong for his age. He has a beard 'thick as and black briar' in Clash, which means he's at least in puberty already. Does it make sense for him to be only 5 feet tall? I

I think most people don't realize how much average height has increased in the last 100 years or so. Plenty of history books talk about this. Even better, go to museums and take a close look at armor and clothing. Most of us would have a hard time fitting into that old armor and I don't mean because we're overweight.

[Darksnider05]

33 minutes ago, Groo said:

I think most people don't realize how much average height has increased in the last 100 years or so. Plenty of history books talk about this. Even better, go to museums and take a close look at armor and clothing. Most of us would have a hard time fitting into that old armor and I don't mean because we're overweight.

If Gendry is close to his father in height who is 6,6 if I remember right Arya is over five feet tall already.

[AryaRegina]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:29 AM, Nevets said:

I don't really see her as much of a killer either, and I would be disappointed if Martin went that route.  I doubt he will though.

I'm not convinced the Faceless Men are intent on making her one, either.  When I look at her training, I see the sort of thing you would give a spy or undercover detective (FBI, CIA, et. al): observation and surveillance, making friends and cultivating sources, finding and reporting information.  I think they intend for her to be an agent for them in Westeros, providing information, shelter, and other assistance. 

She is also a born leader.  She makes friends easily, gathers a following,  and cares about other people.  I would like to see her do something along those lines.  Of course, it would probably mean becoming a Lady.  Oh well, nothing is free. 

And she did ask Ned in AGOT "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?", so she's open for a role with responsibilities and duties.
It seems to me that her issue with being a Lady is the expectation of being hyper feminine, and lacking any choice in her own future. If she got to remain herself, and be able to choose herself whether or not to marry, I think she'd be more accepting of being a Lady. And luckily, one of the few good things an apocalypse might bring is the breaking, or at least relaxation,  of mores:)

On 4/20/2022 at 10:16 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Kind heart to the guilty too. When she came across the Mad Huntsmans prisoners. Murderers rapists thieves and all around scum, but those crows cages they were in was straight cruel and unusual. Giving them water just melts my heart, she's phenomenal. 

She's not my favorite character, or even my favorite Stark girl, but still, I have nothing but love for her. 

Ive deadass said to myself "fear cuts deeper then swords" multiple times in my life, when I felt a little anxious or whatever. It works. 

Also, "I'm done playing with wooden teeth" is such a badass sentence

So true! That scene where she gives those men one small mercy before their death is just so well written, and truly shows Arya's  (extraordinary) empathy.
Those Godswood chapters at Harrenhal are just *chef kiss*, so much happens!

 

On 4/21/2022 at 11:36 PM, Groo said:

I think most people don't realize how much average height has increased in the last 100 years or so. Plenty of history books talk about this. Even better, go to museums and take a close look at armor and clothing. Most of us would have a hard time fitting into that old armor and I don't mean because we're overweight.

On 4/22/2022 at 12:11 AM, Darksnider05 said:

If Gendry is close to his father in height who is 6,6 if I remember right Arya is over five feet tall already.

The Arya-Gendry and Arya-GOHH height comparisons kinda cancel each other out, so I've personally decided to take neither of them literally. Which is annoying:/

[TheLastWolf]

Another character Arya mirrors is Lisbeth Salander from the Swedish Millennium trilogy. The Girl with the... series by the late Stieg Larsson. I just made the connection because it was very recently removed from my reading list. Same body same mind

[TheLastWolf]

On 6/26/2022 at 6:09 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Another character Arya mirrors is Lisbeth Salander from the Swedish Millennium trilogy. The Girl with the... series by the late Stieg Larsson. I just made the connection because it was very recently removed from my reading list. Same body same mind

Was just thinking about how Dafne keen might make a better Arya than Maisie Williams before, voila, another fictional character with whom she shares a lot. Lyra Belaqcua