Heresy 242 Jon Stark

[EggBlue]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Um, I assume you are talking about the two interviews by History of Westeros? Is there a place to put them on the HotD forums?  I haven't been looking at that forum because I'm trying to remain as unsullied as possible. 

I'm also assuming that most people know about some of these channels like History of Westeros, In Deep Geek, Joe Magician, Not a podcast, Radio Westeros, LML, Alt Shift X.... LOL!

I just got into these channels recently.  I have posted some livestreams on the General Forum before and I'm not sure that people can spend 2 hours listening.  That's for die hard nerds like myself.  But I do find them interesting and insightful.

 

 

people share some interview and/or video links from time to time in episode discussion threads . I think if you're interested there will be a good place for discussing interviews . however , I don't know if they have started a non-spoiler thread or not .

[LynnS]

A making of video that is interesting:

 

[EggBlue]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

A making of video that is interesting:

 

it's really terrible that we get to see so little of Laena Velaryon...

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, EggBlue said:

it's really terrible that we get to see so little of Laena Velaryon...

I'm such a newbie; I don't know who she is. I'm still trying to figure out who's who.

Apparently there are some behind the scenes HBO productions I haven't seen yet.  I do like that stuff.  Some interesting comments from George in that one too.  Feel free to stick it on the HotD forum wherever you think it should go.  I did peruse the forums, but I don't know. 

[EggBlue]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm such a newbie; I don't know who she is. I'm still trying to figure out who's who.

Apparently there are some behind the scenes HBO productions I haven't seen yet.  I do like that stuff.  Some interesting comments from George in that one too.  Feel free to stick it on the HotD forum wherever you think it should go.  I did peruse the forums, but I don't know. 

if you have watched episode 2 , Laena's the 12 yr old. of course she grows up in the next episode 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:45 PM, Precioushobbits said:

I think Lyanna found out Jon would be a champion for these powers and asked Ned to kill him to try and prevent another mini apocalypse.

I love the notion that "promise me Ned' was Lyanna asking him to kill Jon and he couldn't/ wouldn't do it because he's Ned and not killing children is a big part of his identity. Whatever it turns out to be, I don't think that keeping Jon alive and safe was the kind of thing that Ned wouldn't do anyway without the deathbed promise. I had other ideas about what that might have been but they've all fallen by the wayside now as I contemplate a Lyanna that realized her son with Rhaegar was a mistake so horrible that it should be violently and permanently erased.  I don't know if I buy it, but I sure like it.

[Brad Stark]

I'd have to reread aGoT again, but isn't the first time Ned thinks about broken promises in the black cell?  If so, then the broken promise was probably something he promised he'd do, but knew he wouldn't (as opposed to something he did that he promised he wouldn't).  He does mention that if only he could see Jon again when he thinks about the broken promise.

I doubt he promised to kill Jon, the most obvious reason is why promise to kill Jon as a teenager or adult and not a baby?

Ned doesn't seem to have any issue with Jon taking the Black, so his promise isn't broken by Jon never becoming King or having children, nor does Ned seem in any way bothered by the end of the Targaryen dynasty and Jon never having a claim to the throne.  Ned also either doesn't see Jon as the Price who was Promised or a head of the dragon, or at least doesn't see joining the Night's Watch as interfering with that.  If anything, Ned is supportive or relieved by Jon's decision.

My thought was Lyanna wanted her son to have a normal life, or even just a normal childhood.  "Promise me Ned that Robert never finds out who Jon's father was.  Promise me you'll keep it a secret from everyone, but once Robert is dead, tell Jon alone who his father was".  

Edited September 1, 2022 by Brad Stark

[EggBlue]

20 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I love the notion that "promise me Ned' was Lyanna asking him to kill Jon and he couldn't/ wouldn't do it because he's Ned and not killing children is a big part of his identity. Whatever it turns out to be, I don't think that keeping Jon alive and safe was the kind of thing that Ned wouldn't do anyway without the deathbed promise. I had other ideas about what that might have been but they've all fallen by the wayside now as I contemplate a Lyanna that realized her son with Rhaegar was a mistake so horrible that it should be violently and permanently erased.  I don't know if I buy it, but I sure like it.

this certainly was new. if we compare Lyanna to the Stark maid in Bale's story , she might well have hated Rhaegar for what he'd done to her and her family . unlike Bale's Maid who still sought revenge through her unborn son , Lyanna's Bard was already dead . so , maybe she wanted to rid her family of his memory/stain ! 

I'm not sure it's implied in the story , but it kinda makes sense for a rape victim to want the child dead . especially with a fever and in pain. 

ed. thinking back at it I kinda forgot that Ned didn't seem to despise Rhaegar .. so , rape thig is out of question

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by EggBlue

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

if you have watched episode 2 , Laena's the 12 yr old. of course she grows up in the next episode 

Oh Lord!  The 12 year old.  That was uncomfortable to say the least.  She's like the dragon girl.  The actor was extremely cute.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

4 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

this certainly was new. if we compare Lyanna to the Stark maid in Bale's story , she might well have hated Rhaegar for what he'd done to her and her family . unlike Bale's Maid who still sought revenge through her unborn son , Lyanna's Bard was already dead . so , maybe she wanted to rid her family of his memory/stain ! 

I'm not sure it's implied in the story , but it kinda makes sense for a rape victim to want the child dead . especially with a fever and in pain. 

 

She certainly wouldn't be the first.

In my mind I've sort of come around to the idea that Robert was a bit of an idiot and noble Rhaegar was the one who captured Lyanna's heart and no one had the stuff to tell Robert that his version of events was all cooked up in his own head. Maybe there really was a rape though, or maybe Lyanna was coerced and realized in the end that she was conned into taking part in something horrible and wanted it undone.  Yeah, Bael the bard and probably a couple of other examples might be worth a second look now with this idea in mind.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

28 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I doubt he promised to kill Jon, the most obvious reason is why promise to kill Jon as a teenager or adult and not a baby?

It could have been 'take this abomination outside right now and end it', doesn't have to be 'keep him alive for a while and then kill him'. 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

A making of video that is interesting:

 

I thought that this forum was about the Song of Ice and Fire - that looks uncommonly like someone riding a Star Wars speeder bike

[EggBlue]

30 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

She certainly wouldn't be the first.

In my mind I've sort of come around to the idea that Robert was a bit of an idiot and noble Rhaegar was the one who captured Lyanna's heart and no one had the stuff to tell Robert that his version of events was all cooked up in his own head. Maybe there really was a rape though, or maybe Lyanna was coerced and realized in the end that she was conned into taking part in something horrible and wanted it undone.  Yeah, Bael the bard and probably a couple of other examples might be worth a second look now with this idea in mind.

again , the biggest reason I had for not believing rape story was Ned's reaction to Rhaegar's memory . he finds himself thinking that he somehow doubts that Rhaegar would frequent brothels. which would be awfully odd if he thinks this guy raped a noble lady , aka, Ned's sister . so ... I'm back into square one ! 

as for Bael's story , I think with Bran's vision of the pregnant lady it is more than implied that Bael's story is not a romantic tale .

[Black Crow]

34 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

...maybe Lyanna was coerced and realized in the end that she was conned into taking part in something horrible and wanted it undone.  Yeah, Bael the bard and probably a couple of other examples might be worth a second look now with this idea in mind.

 Or shifting sideways [slightly] Rhaeghar was dead by this time and out of Lord Eddard's reach, but he may not have been working alone if his ultimate aim was to bring back the dragons.

Remember in this that there is a popular theory that R+L=J and that Jon will turn out to be Azor Ahai and will ride the dragons to victory over Jack Frost

We heretics [as you've probably noticed] have a slightly different take

[Black Crow]

8 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

again , the biggest reason I had for not believing rape story was Ned's reaction to Rhaegar's memory . he finds himself thinking that he somehow doubts that Rhaegar would frequent brothels. which would be awfully odd if he thinks this guy raped a noble lady , aka, Ned's sister . so ... I'm back into square one ! 

Depends why he might have done it. No, Ned doesn't sound as if he thinks the Prince was capable of simply having his wicked way with her out of lust, but  it wouldn't stop him doing something from a twisted sense of duty, because there must be three...

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

We heretics [as you've probably noticed] have a slightly different take

You folk swim in the deep water.

 

18 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

as for Bael's story , I think with Bran's vision of the pregnant lady it is more than implied that Bael's story is not a romantic tale .

Hm, this is something I've never connected or seen connected before but it makes some good sense. If the woman in Bran's vision was Bael's then that changes a couple of things for me. Especially Bael! What a POS to brag about a rape to his victim's father.

I have some passages to reread this weekend. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

mt content

Edited September 1, 2022 by Aejohn the Conqueroo
dup

[EggBlue]

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Depends why he might have done it. No, Ned doesn't sound as if he thinks the Prince was capable of simply having his wicked way with her out of lust, but  it wouldn't stop him doing something from a twisted sense of duty, because there must be three...

I'm not sure if you're joking or not. lol. unlike Rhaegar , Ned is not superstitious . he'd hate the prince even more if he'd raped his sister from a twisted sense of duty ! 

honestly , the more we move forward , the more I think Jon's birth doesn't have much to do with Rhaegar . and here I'm gonna propose what I hope to be craziest parentage theory yet to come: 

we keep going back to Jon's role as a Stark more than anything else which I totally agree with , right? and let's face it , "the bastard saves the world" is a better story than "secret prince saves the world" . so , what if Jon's father is a nobody? and before stop reading , I have proof , sort of. let's take a look at Elia LadyLance Sand who is much of a parallel to the horselady Lyanna Stark . in one of Winds chapter we see her making out with nobody knights before being scolded by her cousin Arianne . then , let's go to Arya Stark whose first crush, Gendry, is technically a nobody and we can be sure when Arya grows up and hooks up with someone , it's probably gonna be with someone of low birth and it's probably not necessarily going to be within wedlock. clearly , that can be some sort of parallel . as for Ned's motivation for raising Jon as his own , well , no Westerosi noble man wants people to know his sister was not "innocent".  now , I have no clue how Rhaegar comes into the story or what promise Lyanna begged for, but that's my theory .what do you think?

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I'm not sure if you're joking or not. lol. unlike Rhaegar , Ned is not superstitious . he'd hate the prince even more if he'd raped his sister from a twisted sense of duty ! 

honestly , the more we move forward , the more I think Jon's birth doesn't have much to do with Rhaegar . and here I'm gonna propose what I hope to be craziest parentage theory yet to come: 

we keep going back to Jon's role as a Stark more than anything else which I totally agree with , right? and let's face it , "the bastard saves the world" is a better story than "secret prince saves the world" . so , what if Jon's father is a nobody? and before stop reading , I have proof , sort of. let's take a look at Elia LadyLance Sand who is much of a parallel to the horselady Lyanna Stark . in one of Winds chapter we see her making out with nobody knights before being scolded by her cousin Arianne . then , let's go to Arya Stark whose first crush, Gendry, is technically a nobody and we can be sure when Arya grows up and hooks up with someone , it's probably gonna be with someone of low birth and it's probably not necessarily going to be within wedlock. clearly , that can be some sort of parallel . as for Ned's motivation for raising Jon as his own , well , no Westerosi noble man wants people to know his sister was not "innocent".  now , I have no clue how Rhaegar comes into the story or what promise Lyanna begged for, but that's my theory .what do you think?

i think you are very wise.

[EggBlue]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

i think you are very wise.

have I gone full heretic?