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Heresy 242 Jon Stark


Black Crow
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23 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Let's just say he doesn't have the ethereal look that the Targaryens are supposed to have.

His middle name is Trouble with a capital "T"!  Same with Otto Hightower. :D  I enjoyed it very much but wasn't expecting the graphic nature of some scenes.  The dragons look great!  The visual esthetic was very good.  The tourney was riveting.  There is a lot to unpack with the revelation about prophecy.  Certainly changes my assumptions.  Did you enjoy it?

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On 8/21/2022 at 3:05 AM, Black Crow said:

 

It was Stannis, not Melisandre, who spoke of the Others being made of snow and ice and cold. The Reeds' oath [or rather the oath they are reciting] is about balance and I agree that so far as the Dragonlords are concerned it originally goes back to Torrhen Stark. Along comes Aegon conquering everything in sight, fire and blood and all that, but then he reaches the north and it all stops - Fire is checked by Ice 

As much as Aegon the Conqueror is presented as an enigma, Torrhen is more so.  He marched 30,000 Northern men with every intent on attacking Aegon.  He was against a larger army plus Dragons, but his brother offered to try to kill the dragons.  He began diplomacy and quickly surrendered his crown without a fight.

Maybe he thought he'd lose.  But why not even let his brother try to kill the dragons?  If he had any success, he'd be in better negotiating position, and if his brother failed, he'd be no worse off.  If he were really cautious, he'd never have marched that far south.  My thought was something was said that convinced Torrhen that even if he won, he'd be better off kneeling.

It isn't much of a stretch to believe Torrhen knew and thought more about the Others than the cotemporary Starks, whether or not the Others were still around.  We've discussed how the Watch was much larger and more important during Harren the Black's time than it is now.  So what if Aegon, suddenly starts talking about the Others?  At very least, this would be shocking to Torrhen and his brother, who assume foreigners never heard of Others.  Aegon provides enough details of the past to convince Torrhen he really knows more than he could without magic and prophesy, along with a picture of the future showing that the Others return in force and the only chance against them was a Westerous united behind a Targaryen Price Who Was Promised and the aid of dragons.  Now Torrhen’s choice is clear – fight and win and the Starks along with all the other men in the North will be killed by Others, or surrender and live as Warden of the North.

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55 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Now Torrhen’s choice is clear – fight and win and the Starks along with all the other men in the North will be killed by Others, or surrender and live as Warden of the North.

Exactly!  What surprised me was the revelation that Aegon called his prophetic dream The Song of Ice and Fire and this prophecy was handed down to each heir to the throne.  So what happened with Rhaegar?  If Dany's vision in the House of Undying is true; this dream prophecy was handed down to him because he tells Elia at his son's birth that he already has a song - the song of ice and fire.

So why did he take Lyanna?  Was it because he knew the reason why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell?   Was the pact of ice and fire broken by the Starks?  Was Rhaegar preserving the Stark line through Lyanna because the Mad King was bent on wiping out the Stark line.  What did Aemon know about the same prophecy?  It's interesting that he tells Jon that he is a son of Winterfell.

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6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So why did he take Lyanna?  Was it because he knew the reason why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell?   Was the pact of ice and fire broken by the Starks?  Was Rhaegar preserving the Stark line through Lyanna because the Mad King was bent on wiping out the Stark line.  What did Aemon know about the same prophecy?  It's interesting that he tells Jon that he is a son of Winterfell.

Given that he, right after that, says "there must be one more, the dragon has three heads" I assume he took her because he needed another child, and Elia couldn't give birth anymore. There might be other reasons, but that's definitely one of them. 

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13 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Given that he, right after that, says "there must be one more, the dragon has three heads" I assume he took her because he needed another child, and Elia couldn't give birth anymore. There might be other reasons, but that's definitely one of them. 

I'm not sure that's it.  I think he wanted another daughter to mirror Aegon and his sisters.  Without getting into theories about Dany; it's curious that she's the one who is told something about the song of ice and fire, that she is the next heir apparent.

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

"Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."

"I remember," Dany said sadly. "They murdered Rhaegar's daughter as well, the little princess. Rhaenys, she was named, like Aegon's sister. There was no Visenya, but he said the dragon has three heads. What is the song of ice and fire?"

 

It seems to me that Dany is the third head of the dragon.  She was meant to be Visenya.

Politically speaking; Rhaegar may have sought to secure the North's alliance after Robert's Rebellion by placing his own child in Winterfell.  He did think he was going to win after all and Aegon and Jon would be half brothers.

If we are talking about balance of ice and fire or ice and fire working together to defeat the Others; Rhaegar was expecting Aegon and Lyanna's offspring to be bound together through blood ties.  But I think Rhaegar knew there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.  I don't think he saw Jon as the Prince who is Promised or the 3rd head of the dragon.  I think he saw it as maintaining the Stark line and restoring the pact of ice and fire.

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6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that's it.  I think he wanted another daughter to mirror Aegon and his sisters.  Without getting into theories about Dany; it's curious that she's the one who is told something about the song of ice and fire, that she is the next heir apparent.

It seems to me that Dany is the third head of the dragon.  She was meant to be Visenya.

Politically speaking; Rhaegar may have sought to secure the North's alliance after Robert's Rebellion by placing his own child in Winterfell.  He did think he was going to win after all and Aegon and Jon would be half brothers.

If we are talking about balance of ice and fire or ice and fire working together to defeat the Others; Rhaegar was expecting Aegon and Lyanna's offspring to be bound together through blood ties.  But I think Rhaegar knew there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.  I don't think he saw Jon as the Prince who is Promised or the 3rd head of the dragon.  I think he saw it as maintaining the Stark line and restoring the pact of ice and fire.

Let's one more time praise Robert Baratheon, First of his name, ..., for ending this emo crap.

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10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think he wanted another daughter to mirror Aegon and his sisters.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think he saw Jon as the Prince who is Promised or the 3rd head of the dragon.

He says that that he saw Aegon as TPTWP. 

As for Jon, he didn't know that Jon would be born at all, he thought he would have another daughter. But he definitely saw his child with Lyanna as the third head of the dragon. Again, he said as much himself.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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12 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Let's one more time praise Robert Baratheon, First of his name, ..., for ending this emo crap.

Oh God!  Let's not have anymore EMO crap.  LOL!

On another note; I was gobsmacked by the size of Balerion's skull and the fact that he is prayed to as a god.

Where do dragon dreams come from?  Do they come from Targs themselves or do they come from dragon (gods).  I still haven't abandoned the notion that R'hllor is an ancient dragon kept at the great temple of Volantis and that Dany is chosen by him to be the mother of dragon.  Melisandre insists that R'hllor exists as if she's seen him with her own eyes.

Dragons seem to be the vector for fire magic and the more dragons that exist; the more powerful and accessible fire magic becomes.

Drogon seems to have a magical link to Dany's mind.  He sees the same visions in the House of Undying that Dany sees; comes to her rescue when she succumbs to the Undying.  Shows up just in time at fighting pits in Meereen.  

 

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49 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

He says that that he saw Aegon as TPTWP. 

As for Jon, he didn't know that Jon would be born at all, he thought he would have another daughter. But he definitely saw his child with Lyanna as the third head of the dragon. Again, he said as much himself.

The problem is that we don't know what Rhaegar  thought about the 3 heads for certain.  We do know that he got things wrong and he tried to make things happen regarding prophecy.  That never works.  For all we know, the three heads of the dragon were meant to be Rhaegar, Viserys and Dany.  He thought he was the PWIP and changed his mind later saying he must be a warrior.  Did he mean the Warrior of Light? Did he make a distinction between AAR and the PWIP casting himself in the role of AA?  I'm not even sure there will be 3 dragon riders.  What happens if Martin kills off one of the dragons?

Jon is certainly a mystery.  I've heard people say that he is the least powerful of his siblings as a warg.  I think Jon is a sleeper and we haven't been shown his full potential.  It seems likely to me that he will be the POV where we learn more about the Kings of Winter and the true nature of the Others.  If he has dragon blood; I can easily see him being the ice dragon.

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Dany has a lot of nightmares.  This one seems prophetic:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

 

The choice of words is interesting.  The (Great) other was a nightmare?  Who is it that has only now awakened? This doesn't sound like Dany's voice to my ear.

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."

 

Is this Him of Fire?

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

 

 

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I'll cheerfully admit I've not seen House of the Dragon, so can't pronounce on it with any pretence of authority, but...

I'd be wary of the supposed prophecy/insights - and ultimately what the Targaryens supposedly knew of the Starks' Musgrave Ritual.

House of the Dragon, as I understand it, is a mummers' version of a book already published by GRRM, and Fire and Blood does not as I understand contain these supposed revelations.

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5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

It isn't much of a stretch to believe Torrhen knew and thought more about the Others than the contemporary Starks, whether or not the Others were still around.  

That rather depends on who the Others really are.

As I've discussed before, the White Walkers don't [and didn't] seem to amount to much in terms of numbers. There are only a few, not an army, far less a nation.

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3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

House of the Dragon, as I understand it, is a mummers' version of a book already published by GRRM, and Fire and Blood does not as I understand contain these supposed revelations.

F&B is written from the perspective of a maester, and I don't think the maester would know what is supposed to be a huge secret within the Targaryen dynasty. 

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10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

House of the Dragon, as I understand it, is a mummers' version of a book already published by GRRM, and Fire and Blood does not as I understand contain these supposed revelations.

Except that GRRM has revealed it himself; so I'm confident that we can consider it canon.  Of course we don't know what if anything Aegon 1 knew about the Stark role in the song of ice and fire but may well have been a part of the discussion between himself and Torren.

I'm of the opinion now that the Reed's oath reflects certain pacts to which they are bound through House Stark.  It may well be about balance, but I think it's more than that:

Earth and water - a pact between the COTF and First Men

Bronze and Iron - a pact between the COTF and the Kings of Winter as it relates to the Walls and the Watch

Fire and Ice -   a pact between the Targs and Starks as it relates to the song of ice and fire.

Edited by LynnS
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12 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

F&B is written from the perspective of a maester, and I don't think the maester would know what is supposed to be a huge secret within the Targaryen dynasty. 

Quite true, but the point I'm making is that House of the Dragon is based on a book already published, which did not "reveal" this.

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I hate how D&D's fanfic has set some kind of expectations amongst fans that Jon and Daenerys should absolutely meet, fall in love and blablabla.

To me it's always been clear that Jon and Daenerys are not compatible characters, Jon hates Axell Florent for allowing his brother to be burnt alive without doing a thing to prevent it, Daenerys isn't into brooding bastards Daario couldn't be more of an extreme opposite to Jon Snow

Likewise I'm not a fan of characters stealing someone else's narrative arc with no build up whatsoever to it, which is why I think Jon's parentage ultimately won't matter that much at least not when it comes to who will sit on the iron throne, Jon's focus is on the Night's Watch and his character arc requires him to face the others and the Night King, not conquer the North or Westeros and rule over it.

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2 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

I hate how D&D's fanfic has set some kind of expectations amongst fans that Jon and Daenerys should absolutely meet, fall in love and blablabla.

Yah, this is way too much syrop for me.  But I will go with Jon kills Dany in the end. Just not under the circumstances depicted by D&D.

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