Heresy 242 Jon Stark

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

This isn't so much a spoiler, as assuming any decent editor would catch such a mistake in the extremely unlikely event GRRM made it.

Spoilery is probably the wrong term for me to use.  What I mean is that there are several theaters of operation and certain POV's will tell us the story for each region.  If GRRM is wrapping up Tyrion (and possibly one other POV); then it means he knows where the story is going for Selmy and Victarion.

We will learn what is happening in Kingslanding from Cersei who will be interacting with a lot of characters - thus a 'clutch' of Cersei chapters but probably more clutches to follow..

For the Riverlands, our POV's are Jaimie and Brienne.  For Winterfell, Theon and Asha.  The Stormlands, Jon Connington and Arianne Martell.  Aeron Damp-Hair will likely tell us about Euron - so perhaps he will not die after all - since we will not be getting any new POV characters.  Areo Hotah will tell us what is happening in Dorne.

Who will tell us what is happening at the Wall?  Melisandre, Jon and Bran?

Then we have characters in isolation from the rest:  Samwell, Dany, Davos, Sansa and Arya.  My guess is that George will introduce new characters in these POV's.  In addition, he will be fleshing out characters like Marwyn and Quaithe.  Howland Reed?  How will he come into the story?  I have my eyes on the Mad Mouse. 

So knowing where GRRM is in the writing process for specific POV's tells us something about his progress.  But of course, he keeps his cards close to his chest not wanting us to know too much in advance.

[LynnS]

The latest from Robert - in Deep Geek.  400,000 subscribers - WOW!

 

A very interesting new bit of information at 11 min 2 sec, about a Vanity Fair article where GRRM ties together the Targaryens and prophecy to the long night and the Others.  Something that will be introduced in the House of Dragons!  Aparently Joe Magician proposed this idea some time ago.  I'll have to go looking for it.

Quote

 

The show’s primary characters are the fifth king of Westeros, Viserys I (Paddy Considine), and his daughter, Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen (Milly Alcock), who would inherit the throne without question if only she were a man. Something passes between them that is stirring discussion. Can you explain?

Condal: I think the Game of Thrones nerds were very interested and intrigued and compelled by the secret that Viserys tells Rhaenyra, connecting Aegon [the first king of the family and the original Westeros conqueror] with the prophecies that we know about the Long Night and the Others [a.k.a. the White Walkers] and the Night King coming out of the North—and how maybe the Targaryen dynasty was aware of it long before we think they were.

These are prophecies that ultimately played out as the climax of the original series. This show suggests that not only are they known by the Targaryens 200 years before, but they’ve been known for about a century.

 

Condal: I think they were very intrigued by that. A lot of them said I committed A Song of Ice and Fire heresy, but I did tell them: “That came from George.” I reassured everybody.

 

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/08/house-of-the-dragon-george-r-r-martin

[LynnS]

The latest from History of Westeros.  Aziz mentions interview with GRRM at 6 min 50 sec:

 

[LynnS]

I think this might be the stream of Matt's that In Deep Geek is referring to concerning the Targs having a purpose in defeating the Others:  The Pact of Ice and Fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R9LsrwZe78

 

Starting off with a quote from Fire and Blood at 4 min 56 sec:  Snow and ice and cold made Vermax (ridden by Jacaerys Valaryon) feel ill tempered.  Of course this is how Melisandre describes the Others made of snow and ice and cold.  So we have a dragon, a supernatural creature that is reacting to this aspect of the Others.

So Matt says the Pact of Ice and fire was between Rhaenyra and Cregan Stark.  But I think this is probably a renewal of an older pact between the Targs and the Starks, but my guess is the original pact was between Aegon the Conqueror and Torrhen Stark.  

I'm guessing the current crop of Targs and Starks don't remember the Pact of Ice and Fire.  It's only the Crannogmen who do in their oath.

We swear it by earth and water,

we swear it by bronze and iron.

we swear it by ice and fire.

Each of the oaths may represent a pact that they are bound to through House Stark.

Anyway this stream  talks a lot about the period that will be covered in House of Dragons. At 1 hr he talks about magical bloodlines, skinchanging and prophecy. 

So dig in if you are interested.  

 

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

A very interesting new bit of information at 11 min 2 sec, about a Vanity Fair article where GRRM ties together the Targaryens and prophecy to the long night and the Others.  Something that will be introduced in the House of Dragons! 

I've been seeing some of the scuttlebutt about this premise for the last few weeks.

Apparently, the running assumption - and one I find reasonable - is that a combination of the Dance of the Dragons wiping out several adult Targs, plus Baelor the Blessed going on a book burn frenzy, caused House Targaryen to lose a great deal of their internal family lore.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I've been seeing some of the scuttlebutt about this premise for the last few weeks.

Apparently, the running assumption - and one I find reasonable - is that a combination of the Dance of the Dragons wiping out several adult Targs, plus Baelor the Blessed going on a book burn frenzy, caused House Targaryen to lose a great deal of their internal family lore.

That would make sense.   It's not just the Starks who have forgotten things.

[Brad Stark]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

Spoilery is probably the wrong term for me to use.  What I mean is that there are several theaters of operation and certain POV's will tell us the story for each region.  If GRRM is wrapping up Tyrion (and possibly one other POV); then it means he knows where the story is going for Selmy and Victarion.

We will learn what is happening in Kingslanding from Cersei who will be interacting with a lot of characters - thus a 'clutch' of Cersei chapters but probably more clutches to follow..

For the Riverlands, our POV's are Jaimie and Brienne.  For Winterfell, Theon and Asha.  The Stormlands, Jon Connington and Arianne Martell.  Aeron Damp-Hair will likely tell us about Euron - so perhaps he will not die after all - since we will not be getting any new POV characters.  Areo Hotah will tell us what is happening in Dorne.

Who will tell us what is happening at the Wall?  Melisandre, Jon and Bran?

Then we have characters in isolation from the rest:  Samwell, Dany, Davos, Sansa and Arya.  My guess is that George will introduce new characters in these POV's.  In addition, he will be fleshing out characters like Marwyn and Quaithe.  Howland Reed?  How will he come into the story?  I have my eyes on the Mad Mouse. 

So knowing where GRRM is in the writing process for specific POV's tells us something about his progress.  But of course, he keeps his cards close to his chest not wanting us to know too much in advance.

Knowing that GRRM knows where the story is going for Selmy and Victarion doesn't tell me anything.  I suppose if I know he has no clue where they end up, then I know they aren't too important.  Knowing Tyrion is dead and Selmy and Victarion are the only POV in the same region, and that region is important tells me either Selmy or Victarion (but necessarily both) is going to live a while (but necessarily until the end of Winds).  But if I have no idea if or when Tyrion dies, I still know absolutely nothing.  My point is that GRRM is free to say is writing Tyrion, or that he is done with Tyrion, and that gives us no additional information other than the obvious "Tyrion didn't die off camera".

[LynnS]

Joe Magician's theory here (spoilers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hJPzvwNoGE

 

[Black Crow]

 

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

Starting off with a quote from Fire and Blood at 4 min 56 sec:  Snow and ice and cold made Vermax (ridden by Jacaerys Valaryon) feel ill tempered.  Of course this is how Melisandre describes the Others made of snow and ice and cold.  So we have a dragon, a supernatural creature that is reacting to this aspect of the Others.

So Matt says the Pact of Ice and fire was between Rhaenyra and Cregan Stark.  But I think this is probably a renewal of an older pact between the Targs and the Starks, but my guess is the original pact was between Aegon the Conqueror and Torrhen Stark.  

I'm guessing the current crop of Targs and Starks don't remember the Pact of Ice and Fire.  It's only the Crannogmen who do in their oath.

We swear it by earth and water,

we swear it by bronze and iron.

we swear it by ice and fire.

Each of the oaths may represent a pact that they are bound to through House Stark.

It was Stannis, not Melisandre, who spoke of the Others being made of snow and ice and cold. The Reeds' oath [or rather the oath they are reciting] is about balance and I agree that so far as the Dragonlords are concerned it originally goes back to Torrhen Stark. Along comes Aegon conquering everything in sight, fire and blood and all that, but then he reaches the north and it all stops - Fire is checked by Ice 

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Knowing that GRRM knows where the story is going for Selmy and Victarion doesn't tell me anything.  I suppose if I know he has no clue where they end up, then I know they aren't too important.  Knowing Tyrion is dead and Selmy and Victarion are the only POV in the same region, and that region is important tells me either Selmy or Victarion (but necessarily both) is going to live a while (but necessarily until the end of Winds).  But if I have no idea if or when Tyrion dies, I still know absolutely nothing.  My point is that GRRM is free to say is writing Tyrion, or that he is done with Tyrion, and that gives us no additional information other than the obvious "Tyrion didn't die off camera".

Ok, well it tells me something.  If the question is which POV's will survive in TWOW;  I'd say they all survive as POV's.  Whether some of them are alive or mostly dead is another question.

[LynnS]

George R.R. Martin discusses dragons and magic in latest HBO interview:

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Knowing that GRRM knows where the story is going for Selmy and Victarion doesn't tell me anything. 

It tells me that he is working on the book, and that's good enough for me after all these years.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It tells me that he is working on the book, and that's good enough for me after all these years.

Exactly so. He may not, understandably enough, want to tell us who he's wrapped up but the fact that one is sorted and perhaps another too, is encouraging news

[Frey family reunion]

On 8/19/2022 at 3:16 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Right now I just hope that the mixed reviews for HotD don't get GRRM all depressed and derail his progress on Winds.

I’m going to watch but, I’m still a bit burned by the last several seasons of AGOT.  While it probably won’t, the show should embrace the style of the book and show 3 versions of each scene, ending with Mushroom’s batshit account.  It would at least make the show stand out from all the milktoast fantasy series we’re getting right now.

[LynnS]

This is a pretty good summary of characters.  

 

[alienarea]

I will not watch House of the Dragon.

The initial outline it is focused on the Starks and Tyrion, and GRRM inserted the dragons later.

Now, it's all about Targaryens and dragons and they knew about the Others.

Indicates to me that GRRM has changed the inital story and is mostly focused on what HBO wants and buys.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

I will not watch House of the Dragon.

The initial outline it is focused on the Starks and Tyrion, and GRRM inserted the dragons later.

Now, it's all about Targaryens and dragons and they knew about the Others.

Indicates to me that GRRM has changed the inital story and is mostly focused on what HBO wants and buys.

He changed a lot of the initial outline before he even published the first book, so I don't think that's a valid argument.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

He changed a lot of the initial outline before he even published the first book, so I don't think that's a valid argument.

I think it's interesting that we are going to learn more about dragons as they relate to magic and prophecy.  I think it's one of the aspects of the story that Martin has been holding back from readers.  If Aegon I knew about the Others and had a  purpose in uniting the seven kingdoms;  a pact of ice and fire, between Aegon and Torren Stark makes a lot of sense.  It opens up the door to the idea that Cregan Stark knew more about the 'things that shouldn't have been forgotten' than  the current crop of Starks.  Aegon would have been paying service to the Stark words - Winter is Coming and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.  It certainly broadens my horizons where prophecy is concerned. 

This has been a working theory for Matt (Joe Magician) in collaboration with Amanda (Crowfood's Daughter, The Disputed Lands) for some time.   He's none too happy that it was spoiled; but credit where it's due.  I posted a link upthread where he discusses it. Warning:  He does discuss time and causality as well.  Nice to know I'm not alone.   But I also know how much people hate that idea.

I have had a hard time with the family trees and much of what I've listened to on Youtube has gone right over my head.  It's too much information for me anyway.  Alt Shift X did a good HotD for Dummies if you are as clued out as I am.  Link also posted upthread.

[alienarea]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think it's interesting that we are going to learn more about dragons as they relate to magic and prophecy. 

Then it comes down to incestous master race with dragons moves West to save the planet. 

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, alienarea said:

Then it comes down to incestous master race with dragons moves West to save the planet. 

I kept wondering what was wrong with Daemon Targaryen's face.  He's got no eyebrows.