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30 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@IFR Congrats on your first F&B read (just in time). What was your favorite part ?

Thank you!

The entire Dance of Dragons portion was excellent, and my favorite part. The build-up and simmering tension was sublime, and then the outbreak of hostilities and increasingly brutal reprisals were gripping to read. 

A talent Martin has is to create these nuanced, flawed characters and allow their personalities to motivate the plot in directions that are both exhilarating and unexpected (though make sense in retrospect). And this tale of internecine and bloody chaos exemplified that.

I really like how it concluded, too.

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39 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s pretty weird that Rhaena started the tradition of putting a dragon egg in a baby’s cradle, but Jaehaerys and Alysanne didn’t do this for any of their children. Seems like an oversight.

That is why this is actually more a kind of legend than actual historical fact.

Cradle eggs are only confirmed for the grandchildren of Viserys I, although one can speculate that some of Jaehaerys' great-grandchildren also got eggs in their cradles. Laenor and Rhaenyra may have gotten cradle eggs - and Daeron seems to have gotten one from the same clutch as Jace and his brothers.

Sunfyre was given as a hatchling to Aegon since he hatched on Dragonstone. Helaena and Aemond didn't get cradle eggs, and neither did Rhaenys, Viserys, Daemon, and Aemma.

If any of Jaehaerys's children had had dragon eggs, then we would have either had nine dragonriders among his children ... or stories about eggs which didn't hatch and or whose hatchlings died early. And we have no such stories.

If George had wanted to go with a parallel there, he should have had old Alysanne remembering how she and Jaehaerys supposedly got their dragons, putting an egg into Rhaenyra's cradle in 97 AC. Once that then hatched it could have become the way to go for her children and the children of her closer family.

In context, though, it makes absolutely no sense how Jaehaerys dealt with the dragons. Keeping the big ones away from the younger children in the wake of Aerea makes sense. Also being concerned about dragon theft.

But sending his children as youths into the Dragonpit to mount a dragon when he and Alysanne and Rhaena and Aenys were all given hatchlings to bond with is complete nonsense. That was comparatively dangerous whereas there no cases reported of a Targaryen child not getting problem bonding with a hatchling. Even if they didn't have the cradle eggs yet, the earlier standard procedure for children was to go with hatchlings.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is why this is actually more a kind of legend than actual historical fact.

Cradle eggs are only confirmed for the grandchildren of Viserys I, although one can speculate that some of Jaehaerys' great-grandchildren also got eggs in their cradles. Laenor and Rhaenyra may have gotten cradle eggs - and Daeron seems to have gotten one from the same clutch as Jace and his brothers.

Sunfyre was given as a hatchling to Aegon since he hatched on Dragonstone. Helaena and Aemond didn't get cradle eggs, and neither did Rhaenys, Viserys, Daemon, and Aemma.

If any of Jaehaerys's children had had dragon eggs, then we would have either had nine dragonriders among his children ... or stories about eggs which didn't hatch and or whose hatchlings died early. And we have no such stories.

If George had wanted to go with a parallel there, he should have had old Alysanne remembering how she and Jaehaerys supposedly got their dragons, putting an egg into Rhaenyra's cradle in 97 AC. Once that then hatched it could have become the way to go for her children and the children of her closer family.

In context, though, it makes absolutely no sense how Jaehaerys dealt with the dragons. Keeping the big ones away from the younger children in the wake of Aerea makes sense. Also being concerned about dragon theft.

But sending his children as youths into the Dragonpit to mount a dragon when he and Alysanne and Rhaena and Aenys were all given hatchlings to bond with is complete nonsense. That was comparatively dangerous whereas there no cases reported of a Targaryen child not getting problem bonding with a hatchling. Even if they didn't have the cradle eggs yet, the earlier standard procedure for children was to go with hatchlings.

I speculate that in Old Valyria, where dragon riding families competed for influence, there was pressure for people to mount larger dragons that could increase their family’s power, with the added risk that the person may be killed or injured if the attempt failed. This tradition may have continued on Dragonstone (possibly explaining (some of) the brother-to-brother successions). With no rival dragon-riding families and a small number of Targaryens, it may have pushed them to go with the safer option of giving hatchlings to the children.

Mayhaps the Rhaena legend is a half-truth, and she started the tradition of eggs *or* hatchlings? Arguably that started at least with Aenys and Quicksilver, but there were quite possibly no older dragons around at the time. 
 

It could also just be something that George found didn’t work as well in the writing. We’re also told that stunted growth in the Dragonpit contributed to the extinction of the dragons, and that Meraxes’ skull is larger than Vhagar’s. Both of these have come to seem quite unlikely.

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4 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

I speculate that in Old Valyria, where dragon riding families competed for influence, there was pressure for people to mount larger dragons that could increase their family’s power, with the added risk that the person may be killed or injured if the attempt failed. This tradition may have continued on Dragonstone (possibly explaining (some of) the brother-to-brother successions). With no rival dragon-riding families and a small number of Targaryens, it may have pushed them to go with the safer option of giving hatchlings to the children.

Valyria we know pretty much nothing about - and that would be another animal, entirely, since there were great sorcerers there. Not to mention much better facilities to house the dragons, etc.

In context, though, I doubt 'raw power' like 'how many active dragonlords are in your family right now?' played a big role in the politicking there. It wouldn't have been irrelevant, of course, but they had elections going on, too. Not to mention controlling people through money, bribing, etc.

If you had say, fifty or a hundred dragons as your property as a family you have been been super prestigious even if you had only 17 actual dragonlords. One imagines that you could also sell riderless dragons to other Valyrians of dragonlord descent, people who might be dying for the chance to try to mount one, entering your service in the process of that, etc.

With the Dragonstonian Targaryens we would assume that they always did both - handing hatchlings to children and allowing youths to mount the dragons of their late elders. I mean, Balerion would have had multiple riders prior to Aegon I, just as Meraxes and Vhagar likely had. Yet there would have always been dragon offspring, so some of the other Dragonstonians would have had dragons that didn't make it to the Conquest.

George definitely dropped the ball there as well. Just like with the Jaehaerys situation there is no straight line from Aenar's five dragons to Aegon's three dragons. There should have been more than three adult dragons on Dragonstone in 2 BC. An if that era is ever elaborated on there would need to be an explanation for this.

4 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Mayhaps the Rhaena legend is a half-truth, and she started the tradition of eggs *or* hatchlings? Arguably that started at least with Aenys and Quicksilver, but there were quite possibly no older dragons around at the time.

There was over a dozen of dragons on Dragonstone during Aegon's reign. Aenys got his Quicksilver, Maegor was offered many young dragons, and Rhaena got her Dreamfyre.

One could speculate that Aegon the Uncrowned and Viserys were not given hatchlings because Aegon expected them to mount Balerion and Vhagar upon his death (and Aenys at least waited for Visenya to die, so that Aegon could mount Vhagar after Maegor had claimed Balerion) while the younger children were given dragon eggs.

Although if this was the case then FaB should have included a story how Maegor beat Aegon in the race for Balerion. And this could have then be the first serious issue between Maegor and Aenys/Aegon.

4 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

It could also just be something that George found didn’t work as well in the writing. We’re also told that stunted growth in the Dragonpit contributed to the extinction of the dragons, and that Meraxes’ skull is larger than Vhagar’s. Both of these have come to seem quite unlikely.

The Dragonpit stunting the growth of the dragons is more a kind of tale, not something that's actually confirmed. Although it could have played a role - the truly big dragons were mostly not in the Dragonpit or entered there only in old age. Vermithor and Silverwing were kept in the Red Keep and then on Dragonstone, Dreamfyre spent most of her early time on Dragonstone and in Harrenhal, etc.

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I'm kind of weirded out by something from the leaks:

Spoiler

Supposedly Mysaria made herself barren, meaning Daemon actually steals a dragon egg for his unborn phantom child.

I expect that way they are trying to push the idea that motherhood chains a (noble-)woman to domestic life, making it hard of impossible to wield power. Similarly, Rhaenyra apparently has considerable problems with the idea of marriage - which is a very problematic idea since it would be literally impossible for her to remain the Heir Apparent if she was unwilling to do her duty for the Targaryen dynasty. The men have to do it, too, after all.

Addendum:

Spoiler

They also seem to use this aspect for the men. Larys Strong apparently also swears off love and children because they are a weakness - which, in a feudal world, is utter nonsense. I you have no heir(s) of your own you are in trouble, especially (but not only) in old age.

Now, in Larys' case it is certainly odd that he isn't married until he makes his Baratheon betrothal late in the war ... but this could very well be a little bit too much there.

 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is why this is actually more a kind of legend than actual historical fact.

Cradle eggs are only confirmed for the grandchildren of Viserys I, although one can speculate that some of Jaehaerys' great-grandchildren also got eggs in their cradles. Laenor and Rhaenyra may have gotten cradle eggs - and Daeron seems to have gotten one from the same clutch as Jace and his brothers.

Sunfyre was given as a hatchling to Aegon since he hatched on Dragonstone. Helaena and Aemond didn't get cradle eggs, and neither did Rhaenys, Viserys, Daemon, and Aemma.

If any of Jaehaerys's children had had dragon eggs, then we would have either had nine dragonriders among his children ... or stories about eggs which didn't hatch and or whose hatchlings died early. And we have no such stories.

If George had wanted to go with a parallel there, he should have had old Alysanne remembering how she and Jaehaerys supposedly got their dragons, putting an egg into Rhaenyra's cradle in 97 AC. Once that then hatched it could have become the way to go for her children and the children of her closer family.

In context, though, it makes absolutely no sense how Jaehaerys dealt with the dragons. Keeping the big ones away from the younger children in the wake of Aerea makes sense. Also being concerned about dragon theft.

But sending his children as youths into the Dragonpit to mount a dragon when he and Alysanne and Rhaena and Aenys were all given hatchlings to bond with is complete nonsense. That was comparatively dangerous whereas there no cases reported of a Targaryen child not getting problem bonding with a hatchling. Even if they didn't have the cradle eggs yet, the earlier standard procedure for children was to go with hatchlings.

realistically , probably George just couldn't fit more dragons in and didn't know what to do with them . but as it is written this way, I only take Jaeherys's approach towards his children pathetic . one could argue that Jaeherys's disappointment in his sister Rhaena and his fear of another younger sibling to become Maegor may have caused him to make sure only a trusted circle of children get dragons . which all became all too convenient considering most of his unwanted kids were daughters he could ship off and pretend were not Targaryen. just look at Vissera situation... we have the line that Saera would be a disaster with a dragon and Daela's afraid of dragons .. but why wasn't Viserra given a chance to be a dragonrider? why not sensible Maegale? 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm kind of weirded out by something from the leaks:

  Hide contents

Supposedly Mysaria made herself barren, meaning Daemon actually steals a dragon egg for his unborn phantom child.

I expect that way they are trying to push the idea that motherhood chains a (noble-)woman to domestic life, making it hard of impossible to wield power. Similarly, Rhaenyra apparently has considerable problems with the idea of marriage - which is a very problematic idea since it would be literally impossible for her to remain the Heir Apparent if she was unwilling to do her duty for the Targaryen dynasty. The men have to do it, too, after all.

Addendum:

  Hide contents

They also seem to use this aspect for the men. Larys Strong apparently also swears off love and children because they are a weakness - which, in a feudal world, is utter nonsense. I you have no heir(s) of your own you are in trouble, especially (but not only) in old age.

Now, in Larys' case it is certainly odd that he isn't married until he makes his Baratheon betrothal late in the war ... but this could very well be a little bit too much there.

 

Where did you hear this?

If we’re talking about crazy childbirth leaks, there’s one that I desperately hope isn’t true but very well could be, since I heard it from the same place as the other leaks:

Spoiler

Rather than dying in childbirth, Laena overhears the maester telling Daemon that the only way to save their son is to cut her open, like what happened to Aemma. Laena doesn’t want to die that way, so she goes to Vhagar, yells “dracarys” and has Vhagar burn her alive. Yeah.

I hope none of these are true because they’re all kind of gross and reek of two dudes trying to be progressive by instead writing something grimdark and vaguely misogynistic.

 

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15 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If we’re talking about crazy childbirth leaks, there’s one that I desperately hope isn’t true but very well could be, since I heard it from the same place as the other leaks:

well , these new leaks are just idiotic . I will surely be disappointed in the show if any of them is true.  however, I find it plausible that some (or most) of these leaks are just fake leaks by HBO to kinda discredit the sources for more leaks. 

15 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:
  Hide contents

Rather than dying in childbirth, Laena overhears the maester telling Daemon that the only way to save their son is to cut her open, like what happened to Aemma. Laena doesn’t want to die that way, so she goes to Vhagar, yells “dracarys” and has Vhagar burn her alive. Yeah.

I hope none of these are true because they’re all kind of gross and reek of two dudes trying to be progressive by instead writing something grimdark and vaguely misogynistic.

that's not possible because :

Spoiler

we've already seen Laena's coffin which means there must be a body . my head canon says Vhaegar's flames would be so hot that turn her into ashes from a close distance ... ,so, I don't know

 

 

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3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

well , these new leaks are just idiotic . I will surely be disappointed in the show if any of them is true.  however, I find it plausible that some (or most) of these leaks are just fake leaks by HBO to kinda discredit the sources for more leaks. 

 

I hope you’re right. I guess it could be an urn, but an urn probably wouldn’t be that big. Are we sure it was Laena’s coffin and not Laenor’s?

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5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I hope you’re right. I guess it could be an urn, but an urn probably wouldn’t be that big. Are we sure it was Laena’s coffin and not Laenor’s?

seemed like a woman's shape to me

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8 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@Lord Varys Where did you read those leaks ? I've read some but not that part.

That's from the leaks from @The Dragon Demands.

7 hours ago, EggBlue said:

realistically , probably George just couldn't fit more dragons in and didn't know what to do with them . but as it is written this way, I only take Jaeherys's approach towards his children pathetic . one could argue that Jaeherys's disappointment in his sister Rhaena and his fear of another younger sibling to become Maegor may have caused him to make sure only a trusted circle of children get dragons . which all became all too convenient considering most of his unwanted kids were daughters he could ship off and pretend were not Targaryen. just look at Vissera situation... we have the line that Saera would be a disaster with a dragon and Daela's afraid of dragons .. but why wasn't Viserra given a chance to be a dragonrider? why not sensible Maegale? 

Technically, there is no chance that he wouldn't want all his children to have little dragons when a dragon was one of the final remedies suggested for Daenerys.

And, yes, the way he wrote the FaB material kind of limited the number of new dragons he could add during the reign of Jaehaerys I - but he didn't really do that, either, did he? There is talk about lots of young drakes and young dragons both during Rhaena's time on Dragonstone and later in the Dragonpit. So we have a several nameless, riderless dragons which didn't live into the Dance age but which were there, nonetheless.

Meaning more children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne could have been dragonriders easily. Sure enough, those dragons would have to disappear later on unless he didn't want to rewrite stuff. But that could have been done. And to be clear - it wouldn't have been that hard to add 1-2 more dragons to the fray. Viserys I could have had a dragon of his own as king, Queen Aemma could have had a dragon, etc.

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Where did you hear this?

If we’re talking about crazy childbirth leaks, there’s one that I desperately hope isn’t true but very well could be, since I heard it from the same place as the other leaks:

  Reveal hidden contents

Rather than dying in childbirth, Laena overhears the maester telling Daemon that the only way to save their son is to cut her open, like what happened to Aemma. Laena doesn’t want to die that way, so she goes to Vhagar, yells “dracarys” and has Vhagar burn her alive. Yeah.

I hope none of these are true because they’re all kind of gross and reek of two dudes trying to be progressive by instead writing something grimdark and vaguely misogynistic.

 

I read about that one as well ... it kind of fits this pattern I was outlining above. Apparently their way to show the bad aspects of patriarchy is

Spoiler

the hammer-handed way of men deciding whether to save an unborn (male) infant or the life of the mother ... which in FaB isn't even the choice they have to make in the case of Alyssa Velaryon. There it is clear that either both die ... or the child might live.

Laena deciding to kill herself there seems to be their way of showing that she defies the rules in her own way. I kind of glossed this over during the first read - the book also has Laena rising from her bed and going to Vhagar one last time ... but this is just weird as hell. And in context would actually mean she preferred to take her unborn child with her rather than dying alone. We have to wait for the details of the scene to play out ... but it is weird as hell.

The funeral is hers as a burned body is left (Vhagar doesn't devour her) - in fact, it seems that Daemon and Laena and the girls live in Pentos until her death. Daemon only returns to Driftmark with the girls for the funeral - and before he and Rhaenyra hook up and eventually marry he apparently wanted to leave Westeros for good. He also is merely attending Rhaenyra's wedding earlier as a guest of the Velaryons - he is still exiled and apparently hooks up with Laena during the wedding.

In general, the power and prestige of royal mothers is greatly strengthened in a patriarchal setting. I always thought Rhaenyra had her three elder sons as quickly as she did because she wanted to show her father and the Realm that the succession was secure in her womb. The pressure on her would have doubled - a queen consort (or wife of the Heir Apparent) also has to produce children but the future queen has to prove that she can rule and that she can continue the dynasty.

It seems like they are not completely exempting men from this pressure:

Spoiler

Aegon doesn't like Helaena as a woman/wife, and is pissed that he has to marry her for dynastic reasons. But he is, of course, free to have sex with other women.

What I really like in the setting of the show is their attempt to give the Targaryens some semblance of their Valyrian legacy and culture. Apparently, they do have occasionalconversation in High Valyrian, occasionally, Rhaenyra's sons get lessons in High Valyrian (Aemond is learning languages as well). George kind of dropped the ball there, making his ruling dynasty the last scions of a sorcerer empire only for them to nearly completely disconnect with all that. Incestuous royal marriages aren't *that much* of a culture, after all. The Targaryens trying to remember their past does make sense in the show.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That's from the leaks from @The Dragon Demands.

Technically, there is no chance that he wouldn't want all his children to have little dragons when a dragon was one of the final remedies suggested for Daenerys.

And, yes, the way he wrote the FaB material kind of limited the number of new dragons he could add during the reign of Jaehaerys I - but he didn't really do that, either, did he? There is talk about lots of young drakes and young dragons both during Rhaena's time on Dragonstone and later in the Dragonpit. So we have a several nameless, riderless dragons which didn't live into the Dance age but which were there, nonetheless.

Meaning more children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne could have been dragonriders easily. Sure enough, those dragons would have to disappear later on unless he didn't want to rewrite stuff. But that could have been done. And to be clear - it wouldn't have been that hard to add 1-2 more dragons to the fray. Viserys I could have had a dragon of his own as king, Queen Aemma could have had a dragon, etc.

I read about that one as well ... it kind of fits this pattern I was outlining above. Apparently their way to show the bad aspects of patriarchy is

  Hide contents

the hammer-handed way of men deciding whether to save an unborn (male) infant or the life of the mother ... which in FaB isn't even the choice they have to make in the case of Alyssa Velaryon. There it is clear that either both die ... or the child might live.

Laena deciding to kill herself there seems to be their way of showing that she defies the rules in her own way. I kind of glossed this over during the first read - the book also has Laena rising from her bed and going to Vhagar one last time ... but this is just weird as hell. And in context would actually mean she preferred to take her unborn child with her rather than dying alone. We have to wait for the details of the scene to play out ... but it is weird as hell.

The funeral is hers as a burned body is left (Vhagar doesn't devour her) - in fact, it seems that Daemon and Laena and the girls live in Pentos until her death. Daemon only returns to Driftmark with the girls for the funeral - and before he and Rhaenyra hook up and eventually marry he apparently wanted to leave Westeros for good. He also is merely attending Rhaenyra's wedding earlier as a guest of the Velaryons - he is still exiled and apparently hooks up with Laena during the wedding.

In general, the power and prestige of royal mothers is greatly strengthened in a patriarchal setting. I always thought Rhaenyra had her three elder sons as quickly as she did because she wanted to show her father and the Realm that the succession was secure in her womb. The pressure on her would have doubled - a queen consort (or wife of the Heir Apparent) also has to produce children but the future queen has to prove that she can rule and that she can continue the dynasty.

It seems like they are not completely exempting men from this pressure:

  Hide contents

Aegon doesn't like Helaena as a woman/wife, and is pissed that he has to marry her for dynastic reasons. But he is, of course, free to have sex with other women.

What I really like in the setting of the show is their attempt to give the Targaryens some semblance of their Valyrian legacy and culture. Apparently, they do have occasionalconversation in High Valyrian, occasionally, Rhaenyra's sons get lessons in High Valyrian (Aemond is learning languages as well). George kind of dropped the ball there, making his ruling dynasty the last scions of a sorcerer empire only for them to nearly completely disconnect with all that. Incestuous royal marriages aren't *that much* of a culture, after all. The Targaryens trying to remember their past does make sense in the show.

that Laena part is all so weird......

 

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@Lord Varys @The Bard of Banefort
The waiting game for some more Mysaria content has finally ended. HBO Max has released promotional videos presenting different characters. Links to the videos reposted on r/House of the Dragon:

Edit:

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The Great Council makes me wonder whether they actually will go with Laenor vs. Viserys or with Rhaenys vs. Viserys?

Regarding Mysaria

Spoiler

if she truly made herself barren in the show, then my entire theory what may have motivated her to destroy Nettles and Daemon is something that's not likely to work in the show. Which really makes one wonder how this could possibly go down in the show? Because goading Rhaenyra into having Nettles executed for pretty much no reason is one of the most genuine evil acts during the Dance. And especially this version of Mysaria who apparently also has a heart for the downtrodden and the weak would really not be the kind of person who wants to destroy a person like Nettles.

Emma's take on Rhaenyra being kind of conflicted about her gender and stuff still doesn't make much sense to me. Rhaenyra is never in a bad position. From the start she is her father's favorite and always in a privileged position. She never has to prove herself to anyone. I mean, Rhaena was apparently also very much loved by Aegon the Conqueror as his first grandchild ... but Rhaenyra is literally the only Targaryen princess who was truly the favorite child of her parents/father. This should give her security and privilege beyond her wildest dreams, unlike, say, Rhaenys, whose position suffered from the fact that her father died too early.

Really liked the material about Viserys. Finally there are glimpses that he is a fun party king, after all.

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With black Velaryons and stuff, I wonder how they will have to revamp the Targaryen family tree if they ever do earlier FaB material. I'd say Alyssa Velaryon should then be Alyssa Targaryen, Aenys' second cousin via a younger brother of Lord Aerion. An interesting take there could be to make her grandfather the black sheep of the family - say, a Targaryen who became a pirate captain at the Stepstones - and Alyssa only ended up at court when her father died and her mother took her to Aegon's court because they had no other place to go (explaining why that branch of the family played no role during the Conquest).

Alternatively, they could also turn her into a Baratheon, I guess (Orys' daughter), although they would have to lose the dark hair (for her descendants).

Valaena Velaryon could be turned into Valaena Targaryen, sister-wife of Lord Aerion (or perhaps an aunt or cousin, if they wanted to do something different).

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