lessthanluke Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 3 minutes ago, ljkeane said: I think individual Olympic events are a good measure of athleticism. You seem to be using athlete to mean anyone taking part in a sport. Which is fine I suppose but then I have to wonder what exactly is your objection to using the word 'sportsman' or 'sportsperson' which means exactly the same thing? Yeah...all of this. Ahleticism to me means speed/power/agility etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 1 minute ago, ljkeane said: You seem to be using athlete to mean anyone taking part in a sport. Uh, yeah. Wild of me I know to think athletes participating in sports belong in a conversation about athletes participating in sports. 3 minutes ago, ljkeane said: but then I have to wonder what exactly is your objection to using the word 'sportsman' or 'sportsperson' which means exactly the same thing? Because "sportsperson" suggests Don Bradman was the most dominant at his individual sport, which I really can't argue with. But that hardly means he's the greatest athlete across all sports, at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljkeane Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 Just now, DMC said: Because "sportsperson" suggests Don Bradman was the most dominant at his individual sport, which I really can't argue with. But that hardly means he's the greatest athlete across all sports, at all. Okay, then what are the qualities you think extend across all sports which rule him out or qualify someone else to be considered? 2 minutes ago, DMC said: Uh, yeah. Wild of me I know to think athletes participating in sports belong in a conversation about athletes participating in sports. Because the people you're replying to are clearly using 'sportsman' to distinguish ability at a particular sport or sports from the underlying qualities of athleticism (speed, strength, agility, endurance etc) which apply across physical endeavors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 Most sports are so specialised that the thing that makes a particular athlete great can also make them very weak in other areas. A running back in the NFL would suck at 1500 metres. Cyclists have one of the most physically demanding sports but most of them can barely lift a tin of beans. Tyson Fury is clearly a great boxer, but he looks in terrible shape. Other than multi sport events where they specifically have to develop an 'all round' athleticism. Mr. Chatywin et al. and Which Tyler 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 1 minute ago, ljkeane said: Okay, then what are the qualities you think extend across all sports which rule him out or qualify someone else to be considered? Athleticism. 2 minutes ago, ljkeane said: Because the people you're replying to are clearly using 'sportsman' to distinguish ability at a particular sport or sports from the underlying qualities of athleticism (speed, strength, agility, endurance etc) which apply across physical endeavors. Then they are free to argue that, and I am free to argue otherwise. The only one saying athletes of team sports aren't allowed for some idiotic reason is you - just as the only one apparently trying to prevent me from even presenting my opinion on the subject is you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lessthanluke Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, DMC said: Athleticism. Then they are free to argue that, and I am free to argue otherwise. The only one saying athletes of team sports aren't allowed for some idiotic reason is you - just as the only one apparently trying to prevent me from even presenting my opinion on the subject is you. No he isn't. He's just saying your definition of athleticism seems to be different to everyone elses. Sports person and athlete are different things. I am a very good athlete (world class at some things throwing humility out of the window here) I suck at most sports. Edited September 7, 2022 by lessthanluke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted September 7, 2022 Author Share Posted September 7, 2022 7 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: Other than multi sport events where they specifically have to develop an 'all round' athleticism. Other than those, but also Bo Jackson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljkeane Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 1 minute ago, DMC said: Athleticism Cool. 2 minutes ago, DMC said: Then they are free to argue that, and I am free to argue otherwise. The only one saying athletes of team sports aren't allowed for some idiotic reason is you I'm not saying athletes from team sports aren't allowed. Actually I'd say they're probably the only ones who should be considered given the relative participation levels in team sports compared to individual ones. What I'm saying is that it's rarely athleticism which makes great players in team sports 'great' at their sport. 4 minutes ago, DMC said: just as the only one apparently trying to prevent me from even presenting my opinion on the subject is you. What's stopping you presenting your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 Well, this got rather circularly rancorous since I left for work. Mostly, it seems, revolving around someone who was admitting to being tired and drunk 3 hours ago - maybe we should leave off that conversation until he can come back sober and rested? Whilst here though, I'll still stick my 2 penneth' in anyway. Best athlete =/= Best sportsperson Best / Greatest Sporting GOAT is understood to be a discussion about the greatest sportsperson, not the greatest athlete or the best athlete. Discounting someone based purely on athleticism is to entirely miss the point of the discussion. A different-but-related discussion can be had as to whether a certain sport can be counted as a "sport" or a "game" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted September 7, 2022 Author Share Posted September 7, 2022 13 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: Other than multi sport events where they specifically have to develop an 'all round' athleticism. Other than those, but also Bo Jackson. I'm not sure why he's so annoyed about it since nobody did call Bradman the greatest athlete to begin with, but I do get dmc's point. You can be great at a sport without being the most gifted athlete in it, and indeed vice-versa- some sports more extremely than others, but even seemingly empirical contests of pure athletic prowess- like sprinting or weightlifting- still have a skill component. So Bradman could be and was the most dominant player of a sport while being so in one which requires less pure athleticism than, say, football of any code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 3 minutes ago, lessthanluke said: No he isn't. He's just saying your definition of athleticism seems to be different to everyone elses. And that's fine! Last time I checked, I'm still allowed to have my own opinion on athleticism that doesn't need to be policed by you nor anyone else. Maybe argue about the actual athletes mentioned in a thread about the GOAT instead of trying to preempt people from even offering arguments? And no, my definition of athleticism isn't different from everyone else's, that's a load a horseshit. Lebron James is an amazing athlete. Aaron Judge is a unicorn of an athlete. Patrick Mahomes is an incredible athlete. The fact they play in team - and, gasp, American - sports doesn't change that fact. It's ludicrously idiotic to argue otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 7 minutes ago, ljkeane said: What I'm saying is that it's rarely athleticism which makes great players in team sports 'great' at their sport. Unlike Luke I was never world class or approaching at anything. I was excellent at most team sports due to a 'jack of all trades' physique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted September 7, 2022 Author Share Posted September 7, 2022 7 minutes ago, Which Tyler said: A different-but-related discussion can be had as to whether a certain sport can be counted as a "sport" or a "game" You're just trying to bait a mention of Phil Taylor aren't you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 3 minutes ago, polishgenius said: You're just trying to bait a mention of Phil Taylor aren't you. I've been sat on my hands trying to avoid it. But come on, he's pretty special (being a bit 'handsy' is an issue obviously). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lessthanluke Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, DMC said: And that's fine! Last time I checked, I'm still allowed to have my own opinion on athleticism that doesn't need to be policed by you nor anyone else. Maybe argue about the actual athletes mentioned in a thread about the GOAT instead of trying to preempt people from even offering arguments? And no, my definition of athleticism isn't different from everyone else's, that's a load a horseshit. Lebron James is an amazing athlete. Aaron Judge is a unicorn of an athlete. Patrick Mahomes is an incredible athlete. The fact they play in team - and, gasp, American - sports doesn't change that fact. It's ludicrously idiotic to argue otherwise. No idea why you're getting so worked up about this, chill the fuck out. No one's said you aren't allowed an opinion and no one has argued that those people you named aren't great athletes. Stop making things up. Edited September 7, 2022 by lessthanluke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 6 minutes ago, lessthanluke said: No idea why you're getting so worked up about this, chill the fuck out. No one's said you aren't allowed an opinion and no one has argued that those people you named aren't great athletes. Stop making things up. Dude I'm totally chill, I assure you. And yes, @ljkeane was trying to tell me that, for whatever reason, team sports were somehow only about skill while Olympic (presumably individual) sports were where actual athleticism lies. That's not a direct quote, there was a little room for nuance, but really not much. I found (and still find) that incredibly stupid so I argued against it. And more importantly I objected to the idea that we can't even get the conversation off the ground but rather have to have this insipid argument between sports. THAT'S what I was objecting to. Because it's patently stupid. Unless we're talking about golf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lessthanluke Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 Just now, DMC said: Dude I'm totally chill, I assure you. And yes, @ljkeane was trying to tell me that, for whatever reason, team sports were somehow only about skill while Olympic (presumably individual) sports were where actual athleticism lies. No he wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 1 minute ago, lessthanluke said: No he wasn't. 1 hour ago, ljkeane said: Lets be honest most great players in team sports aren't really that athletic in comparison to purely athletic endeavors even if they are compared to the average person. It's skill that mostly matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lessthanluke Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 (edited) ," @ljkeane was trying to tell me that, for whatever reason, team sports were somehow only about skill" Bolded mine. He was saying skills are more important than athleticism in team sports. Which is true... obviously they are still athletic. Which is SO obvious it shouldn't have needed to be said. Edited September 7, 2022 by lessthanluke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 Just now, lessthanluke said: ," @ljkeane was trying to tell me that, for whatever reason, team sports were somehow only about skill" Bolded mine. ...and then I said literally in the next sentence: 7 minutes ago, DMC said: That's not a direct quote, there was a little room for nuance, but really not much. You really suck at arguing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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