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Will ASOIAF be a cultural phenomenon 50 years in the future?


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Sometimes I feel very apathetic to the story because the 'good' people mostly get punished harshly for every mistake but quite a few 'bad' people make multiple mistakes and are still at large. For example Cersei. She has mucked up so many times. If Cersei were a good character I think she'd be dead by now. Most of the survivers are generally unlikable people. Mostly everyone good and competent is dead.

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15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Sometimes I feel very apathetic to the story because the 'good' people mostly get punished harshly for every mistake but quite a few 'bad' people make multiple mistakes and are still at large. For example Cersei. She has mucked up so many times. If Cersei were a good character I think she'd be dead by now. Most of the survivers are generally unlikable people. Mostly everyone good and competent is dead.

Asoiaf has good characters? Some are less awful then others but almost all come with some serious baggage. I don't think any character can truly be called competent. Perhaps Varys. 

Cerseis firstborn is dead, her daughter sent away and attacked and disfigured. Her brother/lover has left her and while arrested and sent into confinement she experienced a terrible ordeal. After all this was the walk of shame, I think Cersei knows what punishment looks like

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8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cerseis firstborn is dead, her daughter sent away and attacked and disfigured. Her brother/lover has left her and while arrested and sent into confinement she experienced a terrible ordeal. After all this was the walk of shame, I think Cersei knows what punishment looks like

But she's not dead. A good character would have died after all the mistakes she made. She may or may not have paid for her mistakes depending on your view but she hasn't died for them like many 'good' characters have.

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Asoiaf has good characters? Some are less awful then others but almost all come with some serious baggage. I don't think any character can truly be called competent. Perhaps Varys. 

I put it in quotation marks because it is subjective but on the whole I think characters the author perhaps intended to be good (the present day Starks) are killed/suffer a lot for just one or a few mistakes while characters like Cersei do worse and still keep their heads for a while after.

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44 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But she's not dead. A good character would have died after all the mistakes she made. She may or may not have paid for her mistakes depending on your view but she hasn't died for them like many 'good' characters have.

Not yet. She is not yet beaten. But it is just the very beginning... "... when your tears have drowned you..."

Finally, Tywin had it easy.

Edited by BalerionTheCat
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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

But she's not dead. A good character would have died after all the mistakes she made. She may or may not have paid for her mistakes depending on your view but she hasn't died for them like many 'good' characters have.

Im not sure if she paid for her crimes, idk if thats even possible under Cersei (although I may have said that about Theon or Jorah, and now I would not, so I suppose its possible for me to forgive her crimes, but doubtul). And its true shes still alive but many characters are still alive. From Breinne and Davos to Ramsay and Walder, id say GRRM keeps more characters around then kills (especially Gregor and Catelyn) but few have suffered more then Cersei.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I put it in quotation marks because it is subjective but on the whole I think characters the author perhaps intended to be good (the present day Starks) are killed/suffer a lot for just one or a few mistakes while characters like Cersei do worse and still keep their heads for a while after.

Present day like Bran and the girls? Theyre the main characters and a good protagonist needs some suffering to beef up any story. Or good like Robb? He was good but the hero's hero dying is corenerstone stuff for must epics. Like old Ben Kanobi. (I would seriously contend that Eddards a good person although his moment of death kinda helps me forgive him for his previous crimes, like Jorah the ex slaver slave)

20 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Not yet. She is not yet beaten. But it is just the very beginning... "... when your tears have drowned you..."

Finally, Tywin had it easy.

Word. Cerseis tragedy is already written, and she knows it. Thats also pretty depressing from her point of view.

Idk about easy. He got very lucky how he managed to win his campaigns, but the rest of his story is sad. His favorite son disownes him, his daughter he plans on banishing and she hates him and then the third kid is the author of his fate, I mean the end of Tywin Lannister is the end of a man whos alone and hated

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38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk about easy. He got very lucky how he managed to win his campaigns, but the rest of his story is sad. His favorite son disownes him, his daughter he plans on banishing and she hates him and then the third kid is the author of his fate, I mean the end of Tywin Lannister is the end of a man whos alone and hated

Not that easy. Kind of ironic, or in comparison of some. But he didn't see the ruin of his house. The only thing that really mattered to him. I feel he didn't care he was alone and hated. He thought posterity was for him. The end justifies the means.

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Not that easy. Kind of ironic, or in comparison of some. But he didn't see the ruin of his house. The only thing that really mattered to him. I feel he didn't care he was alone and hated. He thought posterity was for him. The end justifies the means.

I think Tywin cared, like how could he not? I see lots of Michael Corleone in him, and although thats just speculation on me Mike certainly (probably lol) cared when he died alone. (there are differences, hes a kinslayer and his house does looks good for the future) His interaction with Jaime was probably hard on him, possibly not the Cersei one and definitely not the Tyrion one.
Posterity is for him though. The fact that the sacker of KL is now the savior, with a statue posthumously built for that event is, obviously infuriating even if your not a Tyrion fan, but its brilliant writing. For GRRM to rewrite his own history in front of us is nothing short of epic. Thats why these topics confuse me to no end, (like why are you guys here?) for the piece of shit he is, the tale of Tywin Lannister is definitely worth dissecting for the next 50 years, and hes like one of the weakest badguys in asoiaf. (more interesting then Walder but less then his family, greyjoys or boltons)

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There's no good or evil in the story, it depends on your point of view. There are grey characters and that's what makes the story amazing. People can literally pick a side and there are many sides right now. There are characters who are ruthless, others are moved by honour, but there's no such thing as good and evil.

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24 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Posterity is for him though. The fact that the sacker of KL is now the savior, with a statue posthumously built for that event is, obviously infuriating even if your not a Tyrion fan, but its brilliant writing.

I forgot about the statue. But KL will be destroyed. In totality I believe hope. And his statue too.
His house future doesn't look good. Because of what he and Cersei have done. And Tyrion has a very good start at destroying it too.

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I only got into the books around 2014, but my friend who got into it in the late 90s said that originally the waiting wasn't nearly as hard...even for Feast for Crows...because the internet had not completely overtaken our lives. You just forgot about the books for a while, and moved onto other things, until voila! a new book was available.

Obviously that world is dead and gone, and everyday Google is barraged with searches of "Winds of winter when" (not to mention tons of garbage fluff articles that garner clicks from those searches). The waiting is excruciating! And yet, it's also what generated a ton of fan theorizing--some of which has been quite brilliant. 

Certainly without a TV show to fuel interest, the dedicated fan base won't be all that huge. But it will continue on. I do recommend taking intermittent breaks though, ignoring ASOIAF for a while in favor of other works and projects. I've kind of stopped caring when TWOW will drop. Now I focus on other things, and turn to ponder about ASOIAF topics when it's fun to do so, rather than something to fill time as I wait for GRRM to get his shit together...

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31 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I forgot about the statue. But KL will be destroyed. In totality I believe hope. And his statue too.
His house future doesn't look good. Because of what he and Cersei have done. And Tyrion has a very good start at destroying it too.

Imagine the statue is the only thing left standing lol.

I agree with everything, Tywin even more so then his children wrote the fall of Lannister. 

It's possible the house falls, the twins and the kids are gonners for sure. I want a good ending for Tyrion and Shakespeare made it clear only death can bring that so that's probably a thing to.( Maybe my boy Tyreek Hill will calm the fuck down and change his name back to Lannister to save the house lol)

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On 9/20/2022 at 9:49 PM, Larys Strong said:

There's no good or evil in the story, it depends on your point of view. There are grey characters and that's what makes the story amazing. People can literally pick a side and there are many sides right now. There are characters who are ruthless, others are moved by honour, but there's no such thing as good and evil.

I don't know, I can't see any redeeming features in Ramsay for example. Not really Gregor either, although you can make the excuse for him that he is an opium addict...And the Masters in Slavers bay, I can't really see them as grey characters.

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On 9/23/2022 at 10:05 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I don't know, I can't see any redeeming features in Ramsay for example. Not really Gregor either, although you can make the excuse for him that he is an opium addict...And the Masters in Slavers bay, I can't really see them as grey characters.

Gregor is the one I don't see any excuse for what he is. And he is not the only knight in this case.

Ramsay was a bastard and he had to fight to get a better share. Fight dirty, the way he was taught. Not that it excuses a lot.

For the masters, slavery is the rule, from the Free Cities to Ashai. From the Dawn of history to now. Why question the system? Of course, there are things unspeakable, like the unsullied or maiming slaves. But are some lords of Westeros better? There are bad and good masters. I don't put Westeros' feudalism that much above

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30 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Gregor is the one I don't see any excuse for what he is. And he is not the only knight in this case.

Ramsay was a bastard and he had to fight to get a better share. Fight dirty, the way he was taught. Not that it excuses a lot.

For the masters, slavery is the rule, from the Free Cities to Ashai. From the Dawn of history to now. Why question the system? Of course, there are things unspeakable, like the unsullied or maiming slaves. But are some lords of Westeros better? There are bad and good masters. I don't put Westeros' feudalism that much above

Even by slaver standards, the Ghiscari masters are sadistic, depraved, profligate, and disgusting.  They have Institutionalised the sorts of things Ramsay does at an individual level.  They murder, rape, castrate, and torture for both profit and amusement.

Washington and Cicero were both slave owners, but they’d surely have been appalled by the Ghiscari elite.

Edited by SeanF
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37 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Gregor is the one I don't see any excuse for what he is. And he is not the only knight in this case.

I don't think he really has an excuse either, there was a theory that none of it was his faulty because he had a pituitary gland problem or something and it gave him blinding headaches so he was forced to consume ridiculous amounts of milk of the poppy and developed an opiate addiction.

39 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Ramsay was a bastard and he had to fight to get a better share. Fight dirty, the way he was taught. Not that it excuses a lot.

39 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Ramsay was a bastard and he had to fight to get a better share. Fight dirty, the way he was taught. Not that it excuses a lot.

For the masters, slavery is the rule, from the Free Cities to Ashai. From the Dawn of history to now. Why question the system? Of course, there are things unspeakable, like the unsullied or maiming slaves. But are some lords of Westeros better? There are bad and good masters. I don't put Westeros' feudalism that much above

All those characters have potential excuses but I would still classify them solidly as evil, they have no redeeming features. I think Gregor, Ramsay and the masters are examples of characters that fall completely on one side of the good and evil spectrum, they are not at all grey characters for me. The green grace says that they were not always slavers in Meereen, if she was telling the truth then at some point Meereen did not have slavery so it hasn't always been the default.

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27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Even by slaver standards, the Ghiscari masters are sadistic, depraved, profligate, and disgusting.  They have Institutionalised the sorts of things Ramsay does at an individual level.  They murder, rape, castrate, and torture for both profit and amusement.

Washington and Cicero were both slave owners, but they’d surely have been appalled by the Ghiscari elite.

I said there was unspeakable things. I didn't say it was good. But when the system is Institutionalised, as you said, the problem is deeper than a few bad guys. My point was mainly that feudalism is not much better. Both in term of freedom and of way of living when lords decide to do their wars

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20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

All those characters have potential excuses but I would still classify them solidly as evil, they have no redeeming features.

Would you think Hizdahr zo Loraq is totally black? With no hint of wanting good for Meereen? I don't say a good guy. I just say no worse than Tywin. Or whoever else.

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14 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Would you think Hizdahr zo Loraq is totally black? With no hint of wanting good for Meereen? I don't say a good guy. I just say no worse than Tywin. Or whoever else.

It depends on whether Hizdahr is serious about wanting those reforms or not. He wasn't on my mind when I was thinking about the masters, but I guess he would technically count. I was thinking more about the masters in Yunkai and Astapor, who are almost cartoonishly evil.

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