How culpable is Sansa in her family's downfall?

[Arthur Peres]

55 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

She's eleven  Of course she is self-centred but she is a goody two-shoes whose one act of naughtiness is to go against her father's instruction and prevail upon the Queen (in lieu of The King) to allow her to marry Joffrey.

 

Arya was 9...and showed way more awareness than Sansa. 

 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

She can't possibly know open warfare is about to break out or that Cersei is planning to murder Robert and hold her hostage.

 

She already knows that people she knew her whole life were slain. Ned was attacked in the streets not even a week before. That is limits for how dumb or self centered even a kid can be, Ned was already in danger, and she goes and tells on him? Again, Arya was even younger than her, had even less pratice in a court and was able to see the true nature of the Lannisters

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

And she knows that Robert is King and Ned is his hand.  That's an important counterpoint to the Stark-Lannister feuding and should offer safety and stability.  After all she is marrying into the Royal family not the Lannisters and Jaime fled after attacking her father.  I doubt she sees her mother as a Tully rather than a Stark: should she see the Queen as a Lannister rather than a representative of the King? She can't possibly know Cersei is working to overthrow Robert and her father.

 

If Ned, the Hand of the King is not safe, and was ambushed in the streets by the Lannisters, how dumb, must someone be to go and tell on something he is doing in secret, to the same people that already attacked him?

I'm not expecting Sansa to be a genius in the court, just the basic of common sense. Not even kids can be that dumb.

I've never told my uncles and the boss of my father what he called them on his privite time, even as 7 years old, it was obvious that nothing good would come of that...

Sansa's actions in the end carry weight and she is responsible in part for what happened to her and Arya. Even if Ned had failed and be executed, she and Arya could be safe in White Arbor.

[Arthur Peres]

49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

What the hell is it w/ people holding Sansa (and Arya, Dany, Bran, etc) to an even higher standard of understanding of the situation around them than they do the adults?  WTAF. 

 

I'm not...I'm expecting the minimal sense of a kid, to not go and tell on her father that was already attacked by the people she is talking.

51 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sansa is a child, she’s 11 at the start of the story, and she’s had a very sheltered existence until the journey to KL. And from the moment she learned she was to marry Joffrey, she thinks she’s literally living her fairy tale fantasy, it’s all come true. 

Arya was 9, got the same wake up call that Sansa did, but unlike her dumb sister, understood where she was and did not used the Lannisters as a confessor...

Maybe Ned should have let Cersei keep Lady's furr... maybe Sansa need that to be reminded with who she was talking.

[the trees have eyes]

34 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Arya was 9...and showed way more awareness than Sansa. 

Arya wants to return to Winterfell, KL holds nothing she wants.  That's a big difference.  She also has no fondness for romance and songs and doesn't spin fantasies about living the stories of Prince Aemon The Dragonknight and Serwyn of The Mirror Shield.  That's another huge difference in how they process what happens around them. They are different in character.

Arya manages to overhear Varys and Illyrio plotting but has no understanding of what she is hearing and Ned dismisses her account as one of mummers practicing.  And she's about to go with Meryn Trant and the goldcloaks when they come for her until Syrio stops her.  It's true that she hates Joffrey because of The Trident and Mycah but she isn't betrothed to him and in love.   She dislikes him for personal reasons, the opposite of how Sansa likes him for dreams fulfilled reasons.  However unpleasant a shit Joffrey was being you have to acknowledge from Sansa's pov Arya does indeed attack Joffrey

A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

"I won't hurt him … much," Prince Joffrey told Arya, never taking his eyes off the butcher's boy.

Arya went for him.

Sansa slid off her mare, but she was too slow. Arya swung with both hands. There was a loud crack as the wood split against the back of the prince's head, and then everything happened at once before Sansa's horrified eyes. Joffrey staggered and whirled around, roaring curses. Mycah ran for the trees as fast as his legs would take him. Arya swung at the prince again, but this time Joffrey caught the blow on Lion's Tooth and sent her broken stick flying from her hands. The back of his head was all bloody and his eyes were on fire. Sansa was shrieking, "No, no, stop it, stop it, both of you, you're spoiling it," but no one was listening. Arya scooped up a rock and hurled it at Joffrey's head. 

Other than this he's prince charming around Sansa.  Adult women have been known to look the other way or to dismiss it as an aberration when the guy who is usually charming to them suddenly shows a different side.

53 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

That is limits for how dumb or self centered even a kid can be,

how dumb, must someone be to go and tell on something he is doing in secret

Not even kids can be that dumb.

This is pretty ugly btw.

55 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

She already knows that people she knew her whole life were slain. Ned was attacked in the streets not even a week before.

The man who attacked him fled.  She doesn't go to the men who attacked her father she goes to the king..... except she finds him scary so she goes to the Queen instead.  As far as she knows Cersei was angry after Arya and Nymeria injured her son and that's the only time Cersei has not been kind to her.  There's no reason for her to believe the King and Queen are in opposition and that Cersei won't speak to Robert to grant her wish.  It's naive but it's not as outrageously dumb as you seem to make out.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

she goes and tells on him?

She knows nothing to tell other than her father is sending her away on The Water Witch. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Arya was even younger than her, had even less pratice in a court and was able to see the true nature of the Lannisters

I take it you mean Cersei and Joffrey Barratheon?  I.E. The royal family Sansa is about to marry into.  It's true that Sansa and Arya look at them differently but Arya is consumed with anger over Mycah and has no betrothal and wider in-law relations to try and put back on an even keel so can hate them with a passion.  Sansa wants to repair relations so she...forgets...The Trident as an aberration.  A little more than forget actually, more like reimagining a more palatable version

A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

 

But this is how she processes the events and deal with the memories.

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

I've never told my uncles and the boss of my father what he called them on his privite time, even as 7 years old, it was obvious that nothing good would come of that...

Does she tell Cersei her father has bribed the goldcloaks to take Joffrey into custody and that he has written to Stannis to tell him to come and assume the throne? 

No.  She has told her that her father is sending her home and that she wants to stay and marry Prince Joffrey.  Ned, bless his cotton socks, has told Cersei he knows Joffrey is illegitimate!!  Perhaps if he had told Sansa that she might have understood the situation and why the betrothal was being broken but, alas, she's eleven and not privy to her father's plans or his understanding of what is really going on.....

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Sansa's actions in the end carry weight and she is responsible in part for what happened to her and Arya. Even if Ned had failed and be executed, she and Arya could be safe in White Arbor.

They might have escaped, yes.  Assuming they weren't chased down they would have reached White Harbour.  And then they would have gone to Winterfell and been captured by Theon Greyjoy.

[Arthur Peres]

Just now, the trees have eyes said:

This is pretty ugly btw.

Don't really care to be honest...Truth is usually ugly.

 

1 minute ago, the trees have eyes said:

No.  She has told her that her father is sending her home and that she wants to stay and marry Prince Joffrey.  Ned, bless his cotton socks, has told Cersei he knows Joffrey is illegitimate!!  Perhaps if he had told Sansa that she might have understood the situation and why the betrothal was being broken but, alas, she's eleven and not privy to her father's plans or his understanding of what is really going on.....

Yes, and this put her and Arya in danger.

The end of the day one thing is clear: She told the people that attacked her father, what her father would do.

3 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I take it you mean Cersei and Joffrey Barratheon?  I.E. The royal family Sansa is about to marry into.  It's true that Sansa and Arya look at them differently but Arya is consumed with anger over Mycah and has no betrothal and wider in-law relations to try and put back on an even keel so can hate them with a passion.  Sansa wants to repair relations so she...forgets...The Trident as an aberration.  A little more than forget actually, more like reimagining a more palatable version

If Sansa had sense she would also be angry, if not over Mycah death, at the very least about Lady's death, or Jory, or the fact that her father was attacked in the streets and now can barely walk.

This is the point... She ignored too many events.

 

5 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

They might have escaped, yes.  Assuming they weren't chased down they would have reached White Harbour.  And then they would have gone to Winterfell and been captured by Theon Greyjoy.

It could happen.

Other chance is that without Sansa, Cersei does not force Ned into a public confession, then it doesn't end with his execution, and then Robb trades Ned for Jaime, and the Starks remain somewhat strong and united.

We will never know.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Don't really care to be honest...Truth is usually ugly.

Condescending much?
And it’s not ‘the truth’, it’s your interpretation of events, and a very skewed one. 

[Arthur Peres]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

And it’s not ‘the truth’, it’s your interpretation of events, and a very skewed one. 

It really isn't though...

I'm not expecting Sansa to crack the incest thing, or see the monster that Joffrey is, or for her to predict the war, or understand the court intrigue.

It's just that she should be aware by that time that Cersei was far from trustworthy, she already saw her demand the killing of her pet, her father can barely walk after being ambushed by the guards of the queen. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a group that mugged your daddy, should not be trusted with his schedule.

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

It really isn't though...

I'm not expecting Sansa to crack the incest thing, or see the monster that Joffrey is, or for her to predict the war, or understand the court intrigue.

It's just that she should be aware by that time that Cersei was far from trustworthy, she already saw her demand the killing of her pet, her father can barely walk after being ambushed by the guards of the queen. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a group that mugged your daddy, should not be trusted with his schedule.

If you can’t see that that’s your interpretation of events and not ‘the truth’, then there’s nothing left to be said here. 

[the trees have eyes]

47 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Don't really care to be honest...Truth is usually ugly.

Is it?  That's a pretty bleak view.

48 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Yes, and this put her and Arya in danger.

She didn't know what her father would do because he hadn't told her.  The mistake is that Ned warns Cersei, ignores Renly and relies on LF for the Goldcloaks.  Sansa knows nothing about any of these things...  If he doesn't do those things events play out differently whatever she does or says to Cersei about leaving KL.  Ned's already told Cersei he intends to tell Robert and that she should leave with her children before he gets back.  All Sansa does is hand herself over.

52 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

If Sansa had sense she would also be angry, if not over Mycah death, at the very least about Lady's death, or Jory, or the fact that her father was attacked in the streets and now can barely walk.

This is the point... She ignored too many events.

This she does and it clearly grinds your gears.  But it doesn't make her responsible for events or revealing information she doesn't have.

56 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Other chance is that without Sansa, Cersei does not force Ned into a public confession, then it doesn't end with his execution, and then Robb trades Ned for Jaime, and the Starks remain somewhat strong and united.

We will never know.

Ned is not getting out of KL because he will declare Cersei confessed the bastardy of all her children and that Stannis is Robert's heir.  Stannis and Renly will still fight Joffrey.  There's a butterfly effect of course but I don't think you can extrapolate House Stark's downfall, or survival, to Sansa being captured or not.

[Arthur Peres]

4 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

She didn't know what her father would do because he hadn't told her.  The mistake is that Ned warns Cersei, ignores Renly and relies on LF for the Goldcloaks.  Sansa knows nothing about any of these things...  If he doesn't do those things events play out differently whatever she does or says to Cersei about leaving KL.  Ned's already told Cersei he intends to tell Robert and that she should leave with her children before he gets back.  All Sansa does is hand herself over.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

I agree with everything.

And this is why I said that the lion share of the blame should go to Ned and then Catelyn. But Sansa does play her part on it, like every Stark other than Rickon.

Robb messed up the war baddly, but even if he didn't he would still be in a losing position

Jon left for the wall in the moment he could be the most usefull.

Sansa warned Cersei and allowed her to be a hostage and pushed Arya into the wild.

Arya wasted the chance to name Tywin and the last chance of saving her family.

 

7 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

This she does and it clearly grinds your gears.  But it doesn't make her responsible for events or revealing information she doesn't have.

I don't understand what "grinds your gears" means. English is not my first language, but if mean bothers, yeah, a little.

Not because of her character, but it seems bad writting.

Cersei did not used a mask and presented herself as a good queen to Sansa. At that moment it was more than clear that the Lannisters were after the Starks. Lady was killed at Cersei's demand, and Ned was attacked by Lannisters guards. Sansa is giving her father schedule to the people that just mugged him a few days ago...

14 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Ned is not getting out of KL because he will declare Cersei confessed the bastardy of all her children and that Stannis is Robert's heir.  Stannis and Renly will still fight Joffrey.  There's a butterfly effect of course but I don't think you can extrapolate House Stark's downfall, or survival, to Sansa being captured or not.

We don't know that, the Lannisters could demand a hostage for Ned to keep his silence and neutrality and then trade him.

Or just the fact that Ned is alive for longer could prevent the whole KiTN thing.

Without the girls the Lannisters can't force Ned into a kangoroo court, they can't garatee a confession and with Jaime in chains with Robb, I doubt Cersei would allow him to be executed.

One thing we do know is that Sansa played her part on the Stark downfall, as little (or big) as it was.

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Jon left for the wall in the moment he could be the most usefull.

Jon was kind of forced to go though. He had to leave. He had no other option. He was not allowed to stay in Winterfell.

[Arthur Peres]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Jon was kind of forced to go though. He had to leave. He had no other option. He was not allowed to stay in Winterfell.

He wanted the wall even before Cat forced the issue, ignored the warns of Benjen and went to the wall in his own will.

Jon could easily stay with any of the Stark's vassals. Even if he stayed in Winterfell, Robb might actually defy Cat and keep Jon there.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He wanted the wall even before Cat forced the issue, ignored the warns of Benjen and went to the wall in his own will.

He wanted to go, but he also kind of had to go, because Catelyn would not allow him to stay.

3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Jon could easily stay with any of the Stark's vassals. Even if he stayed in Winterfell, Robb might actually defy Cat and keep Jon there.

Maybe, but I'm not so sure. Ned never spoke or even thought of that option, and Catelyn was quite insistent.

The main issue is, even if Jon had left completely of his own free will when he could have stayed at Winterfell, how was he supposed to know that so much shit would start hitting the fan after he was gone? Jon doesn't have the magical power of foresight. It wasn't like they all begged him to stay, going on about how much they needed him and how valuable his help was.

[Nevets]

3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He wanted the wall even before Cat forced the issue, ignored the warns of Benjen and went to the wall in his own will.

Jon could easily stay with any of the Stark's vassals. Even if he stayed in Winterfell, Robb might actually defy Cat and keep Jon there.

At the time Jon went to the Wall, House Stark was in excellent condition.  Except for Bran, but nobody had reason to be suspicious at that point.  Ned is Hand of the King, Sansa is betrothed to the Crown Prince, the Starks have real power and influence.

So Jon had no compelling reason not to go; certainly nothing affecting the welfare of House Stark.

[Arthur Peres]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The main issue is, even if Jon had left completely of his own free will when he could have stayed at Winterfell, how was he supposed to know that so much shit would start hitting the fan after he was gone? Jon doesn't have the magical power of foresight. It wasn't like they all begged him to stay, going on about how much they needed him and how valuable his help was.

He wouldn't know. It would be impossible to predict it. I agree.

[Springwatch]

9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Without the girls the Lannisters can't force Ned into a kangoroo court, they can't garatee a confession and with Jaime in chains with Robb, I doubt Cersei would allow him to be executed.

The girls can't escape. The castle gates are shut, remember? There are guards on the castle gates, and guards on the city gates. There are watchers on the walls who can see the luggage going out to the stables. There are informers on the docks. There are spy tunnels within the Tower of the Hand. There's a small red cloak army preparing to surround the Tower and slaughter everyone in it. Except the girls, those precious hostages, who would never, never be allowed to get away.

Besides, this arguments all backward. The confession was supposed to save Ned's life - his original idea was to die before confessing. Cersei didn't want him executed; she would have saved him if she could. Ned died because Joff wanted him dead, and there's no preventing that.

 

[the trees have eyes]

10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I agree with everything.

And this is why I said that the lion share of the blame should go to Ned and then Catelyn. But Sansa does play her part on it, like every Stark other than Rickon.

Ok.  I understand that you said from the outset that she only bares a small part of the blame.  What we're really differing on is 1) how much she knew and divulged to Cersei and how much harm stemmed directly from that and 2) how realistic it was for her not to see Cersei as she truly was and understand the folly of her own actions.

Taking 2) first, it's beyond obvious to the reader that Cersei is an enemy and that she cannot be trusted but we have the benefits of heaps of information that Sansa does not, an adult's reasoning capacity and an objectivity unmarred by puppy love for Joffrey and the heartfelt, overwhelming desire to live her fairy tale life at Court.  I find her actions exasperating but more comprehensible because of her age, lack of maturity and experience and the bizarre song-like filter she sees the world around her through.  It's frustrating to me that she talks to Cersei in lieu of Robert but not totally baffling.

As for 1) all she knows is that her father is sending her away on The Water Witch.  This information has a limited impact on events.  LF betraying Ned and bringing the goldcloaks to Cersei is what sways the outcome.  You could say that Ned would not move until his daughters were safely away so Sansa hands the tactical initiative to Cersei but this is wrong. He moves to have Joffrey taken into custody while his daughters are still in The Red Keep.  That while Ned is being captured in the Throne Room, The Tower of the Hand is being stormed by Lannister guardsmen is because Ned got outthought and outplayed.  He knows they are all in danger but Sansa is allowed to sneak out of her room and goes missing without him knowing?  Arya is having a dancing lesson with Syrio without a single Stark guardsmen around instead of being surrounded by guards in Ned's quarters? These aren't good decisions by Ned.  He badly underestimates how committed and ruthless Cersei is - and he trusts LF with far greater consequences than Sansa's trust of Cersei.

11 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Not because of her character, but it seems bad writting.

Cersei did not used a mask and presented herself as a good queen to Sansa. At that moment it was more than clear that the Lannisters were after the Starks. Lady was killed at Cersei's demand, and Ned was attacked by Lannisters guards. Sansa is giving her father schedule to the people that just mugged him a few days ago...

I think we're meant to see how Sansa wrestles with the discrepancy between the world as it is and how she wants it to be.  She's not quite a fantasist but she does have odd ideas about "songs" and her memory can be unreliable (the unkiss, telling Arya Mycah attacked Joffrey).  What I think she is doing is recasting unpleasant events in a light which is easier for her to relate to and accept.  It takes Ned's death for her to really see the world as it is and the people around her as they are.

I don't think this is bad writing, it's part of her character development, though she is not a particularly likeable character in AGOT.  You can see how she would rethink what happened to make it more comprehensible or recast it to seem how she wants the world to be.  Nymeria did injure Joffrey: it's not fair that Lady paid the price but normally nice Cersei had a right to be angry.  Her mother did kidnap Jaime's brother: it's not fair that he should kill her father's guards in retribution but that was nasty Jaime not nice Cersei. Etc...

The original pitch for the series had Sansa as betraying House Stark.  Although GRRM ditched that I believe there are echoes of that in Sansa's naïve view of Joffrey and Cersei and her attachment to them.

11 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

One thing we do know is that Sansa played her part on the Stark downfall, as little (or big) as it was.

In terms of the Stark downfall Ned, Cat and Robb all make decisions which have major adverse consequences.  So do Balon, Theon, Roose, Ramsay, Walder Frey, LF, Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey and Jaime through open opposition or betrayal.  So do Varys, Pycelle, Stannis and Renly through inaction or irresponsibility.  Ser Rodrik and Edmure make tactical blunders that have serious military and political consequences.  Jon, Arya and Sansa?  Not that I can see.  Ned is moving to arrest Cersei - and relying on goldcloaks who LF has secretly secured for Cersei - while his daughters are both still in the castle.  Once he's arrested how do they get to The Water Witch?

[The Lord of the Crossing]

I am actually glad for what Sansa did to help hurry along the fall of her own house.  I am angry for her part in the death of the butcher's son. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I am angry for her part in the death of the butcher's son. 

Well then you're angry at nothing, because nothing Sansa did lead to Mycah being killed.

[SeanF]

On 10/23/2022 at 2:07 AM, Arthur Peres said:

He wouldn't know. It would be impossible to predict it. I agree.

Reading Jon’s very first chapter, one can see that a big reason for his wanting to go to the Wall was his belief that he had no other future available to him.  He reflects that Robb will get Winterfell, Sansa and Arya will get good marriages, and Bran and Rickon will get holdfasts.  He will get nothing.

For Jon, the choice was between the Wall and whatever charity his siblings might offer him.