Daenerys and the Torture of the Wineseller's Daughters - Thoughts?

[Oana_Mika]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It is more probable, but Daenerys ideally shouldn't torture them at all, certainly not unless she is sure. Otherwise it's pointless.

 

The act is presented as harsh and made in anger so I agree that she should have thought about it better but as I said, they were suspects and very probably the murderers.

[Oana_Mika]

3 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

guilty or not, it takes a special kind of evil to torture a man's daughters before his eyes. even if the man was guilty, the girls probably are not.

 

Well, where is said that his daughters were 100% innocent?

[HTN02]

11 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

 

Well, where is said that his daughters were 100% innocent?

Seeing as i didn't make the claim that his daughters are 100% innocent, i do not understand this question.

[Oana_Mika]

Just now, HTN02 said:

Seeing as i didn't make the claim that his daughters are 100% innocent, i do not understand this question.

 

13 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

the girls probably are not.

 

My bad, you said "probably". I still stand by my statement that it's very likely all of them knew.  If only their father knew, then his daughters might have gotten other people killed by accident and that did not happen.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Kierria said:

It was harsh but necessary.  Some things that need to be done during a time of war are not pretty.  I approve of Dany's decision and would have done it sooner.  Stannis, Renly, Tywin, Tyrion, Robb, Jon, any of those would have done the same thing.  Terrorists are attacking the new government and endangering the welfare of the people.  An assassination attempt on the leader of the government, a Targaryen queen no less, required that harsh measures be taken.  People who do not have the fortitude to make harsh decisions should not consider leading.  They need to stay home and do embroidery.  A good leader will have justice in the back of their minds but the most important priority is the security and safety of the state.  Dany was being a good leader of the government. 

Wow… just wow. I can think of a few rl leaders - some living, some deceased - that would agree w/ you. Scary stuff.

[HTN02]

10 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

 

 

My bad, you said "probably". I still stand by my statement that it's very likely all of them knew.  If only their father knew, then his daughters might have gotten other people killed by accident and that did not happen.

i say probably because its literature: there i a reason for what we know about them, and what we don't know about them.

Did the winesellers daughters even work at their dads store? we don't know, because Dany doesn't bother to ask it.
She allows the shavepate to torture them so their dad speaks.

For added nightmare fuel: we don't even know if how old those daughters are, as Dany, again, doesn't bother to ask.
Might be the shavepate is torturing some infants. we don't know, and Dany doesn't seem to really care either.

 

[Darth Sidious]

This is an example of a tough choice that leaders are forced to make. Torture suspects to extract information that could prevent the deaths of many. The wine seller was suspicious. The balance between public safety and justice need to be observed.  
 

Ned Stark was willing to turn his back and allow the murder of an inmocent girl and her unborn child. Jon Snow put Craster’s son in danger to protect the safety of the son of Mance. The tough questioning of the wine merchant and his daughter is more justifiable to me. 

[HTN02]

1 hour ago, Kierria said:

It was harsh but necessary.  Some things that need to be done during a time of war are not pretty.  I approve of Dany's decision and would have done it sooner.  Stannis, Renly, Tywin, Tyrion, Robb, Jon, any of those would have done the same thing.  Terrorists are attacking the new government and endangering the welfare of the people.  An assassination attempt on the leader of the government, a Targaryen queen no less, required that harsh measures be taken.  People who do not have the fortitude to make harsh decisions should not consider leading.  They need to stay home and do embroidery.  A good leader will have justice in the back of their minds but the most important priority is the security and safety of the state.  Dany was being a good leader of the government. 

Stannis, Tywin and Tyrion will be smart and experienced enough to know it doesnt work. i think they will just keep it with a public hanging or something. Renly, i dont know. we never learned to know him well enough to make that assertion.

Robb "My father outlawed flaying in the North" Stark i dont see torturing people either. Jon is also enough of a son of Ned to also not fall back to that.

I cannot remember any scene where any of the characters mentioned above is contemplating torturing anyone, even with the problems they deal with. Please correct me in this if i am wrong.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Darth Sidious said:

Ned Stark was willing to turn his back and allow the murder of an inmocent girl and her unborn child.

No he wasn't, he quit being hand because of it.

1 minute ago, HTN02 said:

Renly, i dont know. we never learned to know him well enough to make that assertion.

Renly appears to value his public image so I doubt he would order torture unless he felt it to be necessary and it could be kept quiet.

[HTN02]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Renly appears to value his public image so I doubt he would order torture unless he felt it to be necessary and it could be kept quiet.

We never seen Renly under pressure, so who knows? he wouldn't when he was winning, and he was #winning right until he was killed. 

 

  

9 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

This is an example of a tough choice that leaders are forced to make. Torture suspects to extract information that could prevent the deaths of many. The wine seller was suspicious. The balance between public safety and justice need to be observed.  
 

Ned Stark was willing to turn his back and allow the murder of an inmocent girl and her unborn child. Jon Snow put Craster’s son in danger to protect the safety of the son of Mance. The tough questioning of the wine merchant and his daughter is more justifiable to me. 

Well, maybe if you are a Sith you can look at it that way, but no Jedi would agree with you 

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

We never seen Renly under pressure, so who knows? he wouldn't when he was winning, and he was #winning right until he was killed. 

It was a great shame that he died. RIP.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, HTN02 said:

Stannis, Tywin and Tyrion will be smart and experienced enough to know it doesnt work. i think they will just keep it with a public hanging or something. Renly, i dont know. we never learned to know him well enough to make that assertion.

Robb "My father outlawed flaying in the North" Stark i dont see torturing people either. Jon is also enough of a son of Ned to also not fall back to that.

I cannot remember any scene where any of the characters mentioned above is contemplating torturing anyone, even with the problems they deal with. Please correct me in this if i am wrong.

Well now…. Ser Clayton Suggs likes to join Stannis’ torturers when they’re interrogating young women.  Jon Snow tortures Cregan Karstark and his men, by putting them in ice cells.  Karstark goes mad as a result.  Tywin has oubliettes at Casterly Rock so small that prisoners can’t even move in them, while rats gnaw them.  Jon Arryn had Mord and the sky cells.  Robb’s commanders put suspected collaborators to the question and hang young women.  Tyrion hands suspects over for a taste of “Joffrey’s justice”.

Torture is used by everyone in this world.  The bad guys do it for fun.

I’ve no issue with executing the 163 Great Masters, but this action was plainly unjust.  I think the correct comparison is with Jon burning Gilly, and forcing her to give up her child.  They’re both WTF? moments.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, HTN02 said:

Well, maybe if you are a Sith you can look at it that way, but no Jedi would agree with you 

But the Jedis are the bad guys! Everything bad that happens, happens because the Jedis did horrible things, and don’t get me started on that monster, Yoda! 

I can totally see the above argument being made… 
 

[Kierria]

1 hour ago, HTN02 said:

Stannis, Tywin and Tyrion will be smart and experienced enough to know it doesnt work. i think they will just keep it with a public hanging or something. Renly, i dont know. we never learned to know him well enough to make that assertion.

Robb "My father outlawed flaying in the North" Stark i dont see torturing people either. Jon is also enough of a son of Ned to also not fall back to that.

I cannot remember any scene where any of the characters mentioned above is contemplating torturing anyone, even with the problems they deal with. Please correct me in this if i am wrong.

Stannis burns people.  It may not be called torturing for information but it is much more cruel.  The men he roasted for eating the dead were innocents who were only trying to survive.  They suffered pain in the process of dying.  That is torture.  Tywin eradicated families and innocents alike.  The spearwomen that Ramsay tortured and skinned were only in that predicament because of Jon. He sent them to their deaths.   I would say depriving Gilly of her son is torture.  It was torture for Gilly but Jon did it because it served his interests to do it. 

[Oana_Mika]

1 hour ago, HTN02 said:

i say probably because its literature: there i a reason for what we know about them, and what we don't know about them.

Did the winesellers daughters even work at their dads store? we don't know, because Dany doesn't bother to ask it.
She allows the shavepate to torture them so their dad speaks.

For added nightmare fuel: we don't even know if how old those daughters are, as Dany, again, doesn't bother to ask.
Might be the shavepate is torturing some infants. we don't know, and Dany doesn't seem to really care either.

 

They all were brought up from the scene where the unsullied were murdered (aka the shop). I don't think her people got to the secene where the unsullied were poisoned, got the owner and then got his daughters from their beds. They were working there. That's why it's said that they were the only suspescts found, meaning they were the only people at the shop that had the meanings to do so. They did not arrest any person who stopped there since it's most probable that those working there poisoned the unsullied. And yes, we do not know their age but giving the fact that Daenerys was unwilling to kill her child hostages I don't think she allowed children to be tortured and as I said, I believe his daughters were working along with their father at the shop so I don't think they were kids.

[HTN02]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Well now…. Ser Clayton Suggs likes to join Stannis’ torturers when they’re interrogating young women.  Jon Snow tortures Cregan Karstark and his men, by putting them in ice cells.  Karstark goes mad as a result.  Tywin has oubliettes at Casterly Rock so small that prisoners can’t even move in them, while rats gnaw them.  Jon Arryn had Mord and the sky cells.  Robb’s commanders put suspected collaborators to the question and hang young women.  Tyrion hands suspects over for a taste of “Joffrey’s hustice”.

I’ve no issue with executing the 163 Great Masters, but this action was plainly unjust.  I think the correct comparison is with Jon burning Gilly, and forcing her to give up her child.  They’re both WTF? moments.

Id expect better of Stannis, but alright, so Stannis does it to. I never been a fan of him anyway. like Kierria says, he also burns people. (and neither i am a fan of Dany, that is true)
For Jon: does Castle Black has cells beyond the icecells?
For Tywin: Not a saint either, but you cant really blame him for a design feature that might have been done even before there was a Lannister/ Lann the Clever in Casterly Rock. Almost the same for Jon Arryn, those skycells where a feature of his ancestors, and he might have used different cells if he needed them. Mort is a goaler. not a friendly one, but one anyway. remember he probably never has prisoners anyway (there is no town nearby, just a small garrison)

Robb's commanders you mean Bolton? i dont think he does that with permission of Robb.
Tyrion sends people to Joffrey's Justice, meaning they get used as catapult ammo. probably a better way to go then a slow hanging. not saying it is OK, but its not really torture.
 

[Oana_Mika]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wow… just wow. I can think of a few rl leaders - some living, some deceased - that would agree w/ you. Scary stuff.

 

It was indeed her worst deicision so far IMO but still, people pretend to spin it as "Daenerys torturing kids because she was angry" when she allowed the torture of three suspects (IDK the number of daughter the winseller had so there's another thing people may speculate, maybe they were 100) of the killing of two unsullied and she allowed that to gain information about a group that not only targets armed patrols, but freedmen in their homes too.

[HTN02]

13 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

They all were brought up from the scene where the unsullied were murdered (aka the shop). I don't think her people got to the secene where the unsullied were poisoned, got the owner and then got his daughters from their beds. They were working there. That's why it's said that they were the only suspescts found, meaning they were the only people at the shop that had the meanings to do so. They did not arrest any person who stopped there since it's most probable that those working there poisoned the unsullied. And yes, we do not know their age but giving the fact that Daenerys was unwilling to kill her child hostages I don't think she allowed children to be tortured and as I said, I believe his daughters were working along with their father at the shop so I don't think they were kids.

Its not like today where you have a house and a place to work. the man was probably living next to/above the wineshop, along with his daughters. This would be very standard in real life cities with that level of development.

The point is we don't know how old they are, because it is neither told nor asked by Daenerys. we get the same info as she gets, but she doesn't care enough to ask about it. Even if they are adults, Daenerys did *not* know.

  

8 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

 

It was indeed her worst deicision so far IMO but still, people pretend to spin it as "Daenerys torturing kids because she was angry" when she allowed the torture of three suspects (IDK the number of daughter the winseller had so there's another thing people may speculate, maybe they were 100) of the killing of two unsullied and she allowed that to gain information about a group that not only targets armed patrols, but freedmen in their homes too.

2 daughters.
How would you spin it? she decides it to be torture after she learns that he is the one arrested in the case of Misandei's brother. when she thought it was a different pair of unsullied they killed, she was ok with questioning them sweetly. she also acknowledges that it probably wont work anyway.

[Oana_Mika]

24 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’ve no issue with executing the 163 Great Masters

Same

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

but this action was plainly unjust.

 

While I believe it's her harshest and most rashed decision I don't believe the wineseller and his daughters were 100% innocent. For them to be completely out of blame, the attack should have been rested upon fate and the chance to poison the unsullied's cups ( since they were the only ones poisoned ) while with their involvement, nothing is left to chance. They die yes or yes, nor ifs or whens.

 

28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 I think the correct comparison is with Jon burning Gilly, and forcing her to give up her child.  They’re both WTF? moments.

 

I can also completely justify Jon's action although it was also harsh and cruel. He just wanted to prevent Mance's baby to be killed and he believed that if Melisandre knows it's Gilly's baby no baby will be burned. But I don't see people criticising him for this nearly as much as Dany is for her decision. Or maybe I haven't seen enough discussions.

[Rondo]

Odds are the wine seller is guilty.  It's not a hundred percent because there is the small chance that he was framed.  But it is impossible to really know for sure.  Even courts of today do not require absolute certainty in capital cases.  

Mobile phone videos and lie detectors were not available.  Daenerys had to use the methods available to her to protect her troops.  

If the father is a Harpy supporter then his daughters are as well.  They will know what he was doing to support the Harpy.  They are good suspects.  Having the daughter will allow comparisons of two answers and help lead to the truth.  The use of torture is not a sure way to the truth but asking nicely is even less reliable.