Alester Florent Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I remember when I was in York I was thrilled that there was a Richard III Exhibition only for it to be closed... Yes, no one is certain, but I have heard the stories weren't all his own. The majority of Shakespeare's tragedies, and, obviously, all his histories, are not original stories, but adapted from older stories (or histories). Most of his comedies have a nominally original plot, but the plots are all pretty straightforward unless the complexity is part of the comedy. But to complain that Shakespeare's plots weren't original is to miss the point entirely. People admire Shakespeare for the quality of his writing, his characterisation, his insight into human nature, and so on, not because of his plotting. If anything, knowing that his plots weren't original makes his work more impressive, because he stands head and shoulders above almost anyone else telling the same stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 Just now, Adelstein said: But to complain that Shakespeare's plots weren't original is to miss the point entirely. I am mostly ambivalent as to whether his plots were original. I just think he was a Tudor Propagandist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I am mostly ambivalent as to whether his plots were original. I just think he was a Tudor Propagandist. he did it extremely well though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 The "Tudor propaganda" label can only really be applied fairly to (some of) his history plays: King John, Henry VI Part 3, Richard III and Henry VIII - the latter three being the only ones where a Tudor actually appears, and the first being an allegory for Tudor policy - and of course the Scottish Play performs a similar function for the Stuarts. But I think "propaganda" is a bit strong even in those cases. They are obviously friendly to the ruling house, but in Tudor/Stuart society it would have been professional and possibly personal suicide to have taken the opposite tack: this was not a society in which freedom of speech was prized, and all his plays had to be passed by the authorities before being allowed on stage. Even then, Richard II was considered seditious for its scenes in which a monarch, even an unfit one, was deposed. Moreover, while the common perception of Richard III may owe a lot to Shakespeare, that is mostly due to his popularity not his originality in the portrayal. He was working from sources that already existed, like Thomas More's. Richard died over 100 years before Shakespeare wrote the play, so he wasn't writing about the guy from memory, and he may not even have had access to "second-hand" memory (i.e. talking to people who were actually alive in Richard's reign); rather he was working from the same "authorised" sources (with attendant biases) that everyone else was. Richard's name was already blackened and there was as yet no revisionist movement to challenge that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golos2022 Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 On 11/7/2022 at 12:46 PM, hnv said: The bigger question is why did no big port emerge in southern Dorne that bypasses the Stepstones? They could give Oldtown a good competition. Educated Ironborn: "The [southern] Dornish Coast is dry and bleak." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 Balon getting a complete pardon for his rebellion. I get he loses Theon, but that seems to be his only real punishment for destroying a major city and declaring war on his king. You'd think they'd at least make the guy take the black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 The North having no coastal defense system against the Ironborn at all. You'd think they'd have something more than the efforts of individual castles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 Ironborn had raided other kingdoms thousands of years. So the fact that there had not been any king among those kingdoms who had decided to apply final solution to that problem. Or IB should not exist anymore. Aldarion and Vaegon the dragonless 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 On 11/7/2022 at 7:21 AM, Alden Rothack said: Richard very much does, considering what happened the last time a child inheritted the throne Richard was right to pass over the princes and take the throne, even killing them might have been tragic but neccessary look at the number of times the tudors had to deal with rebellions or attempted rebellions rallying around figureheads two boys lives vs the thousands or more who would have died if they lived is not a hard choice to make Like in the events in the series when Tommen becomes King But, it didn’t work. The widespread belief that Richard murdered the Princes proved fatal to his regime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted November 20, 2022 Author Share Posted November 20, 2022 There being no calendar before Aegon’s Conquest. Citadel has existed for thousands of years, at the very least we should’ve had one using Citadel’s founding as it’s start date, making the arrival of Andals etc not so hazy as having several thousand years of difference depending on who tells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 Ned trusting Littlefinger more than Renly. Out of all of Ned's many poor choices, this is probably his biggest mistake in the series, IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 3 minutes ago, sifth said: Ned trusting Littlefinger more than Renly. Out of all of Ned's many poor choices, this is probably his biggest mistake in the series, IMO Yeah, I'd totally trust the guy who challenged my brother to a duel for my now wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 42 minutes ago, sifth said: Ned trusting Littlefinger more than Renly. Out of all of Ned's many poor choices, this is probably his biggest mistake in the series, IMO I agree. I really don't understand why Ned did this at all. I know Ned wasn't a particularly adept politician but everyone aside from him, Catelyn and Lysa seem to understand that Littlefinger is up to no good, or at least that he's not trustworthy. You'd think he'd want Renly's help to convince Robert of the incest story, given that Renly is his brother. I know it's stated they aren't particularly close but Ned doesn't know that. Littlefinger explicitly tells Ned multiple times not to trust him. So when peoples' lives are on the line, what does Ned do? Trust Littlefinger. Aldarion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golos2022 Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 13 hours ago, Loose Bolt said: Ironborn had raided other kingdoms thousands of years. So the fact that there had not been any king among those kingdoms who had decided to apply final solution to that problem. Or IB should not exist anymore. That is not bad world building, though. Look at how long it took Europeans to destroy the North African Corsair threat. Not because Europeans were weak, but they were so disunited and busy fighting each other that a bunch of slavers could get away with raiding their ships and coasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: The North having no coastal defense system against the Ironborn at all. You'd think they'd have something more than the efforts of individual castles. True and by the same logic it would also make sense for them to keep the watch well manned even cutting back forests near the wall to prevent wildlings going over and causing havoc...esp as the northmen still respect the watch! the north comes across as a wild west with random wildling raids, of various sizes ironborn on one coast and sellsail/slavers or skagosi cannibals on the other coast to worry about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 14 hours ago, Loose Bolt said: Ironborn had raided other kingdoms thousands of years. So the fact that there had not been any king among those kingdoms who had decided to apply final solution to that problem. Or IB should not exist anymore. The general impression is depite balons boasting the gold price is paid 99 times out of 100 for most ironborn! Theyd probably have extensive trade with the rest of westeros , it would make sense that they do a lot of selling the wares of all those raids around the stepstones or further and selling them at lannisport,oldtown and arbour!!! Also fish, iron and of course buying lumber for their boats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golos2022 Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 31 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: True and by the same logic it would also make sense for them to keep the watch well manned even cutting back forests near the wall to prevent wildlings going over and causing havoc...esp as the northmen still respect the watch! the north comes across as a wild west with random wildling raids, of various sizes ironborn on one coast and sellsail/slavers or skagosi cannibals on the other coast to worry about! The North seems too underdeveloped/underpopulated for such an organized defense of so much land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 16 minutes ago, Golos2022 said: The North seems too underdeveloped/underpopulated for such an organized defense of so much land. True ned seems to be constantly putting off fixing a nearby tower let alone making a fleet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 15 hours ago, SeanF said: But, it didn’t work. The widespread belief that Richard murdered the Princes proved fatal to his regime. only because a lot of people already wanted him gone, the situation would have been as bad or worse if Richard was regent not king Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 15 hours ago, Golos2022 said: That is not bad world building, though. Look at how long it took Europeans to destroy the North African Corsair threat. Not because Europeans were weak, but they were so disunited and busy fighting each other that a bunch of slavers could get away with raiding their ships and coasts. But that's just it - Westeros isn't that disunited or busy fighting each other (there are wars, but not that many). It also doesn't have a hostile superpower in the form of various Islamic Caliphates right on its doorstep. In other words, as similar as situation may appear on the surface, context is completely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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