Sansa is slowly killing Sweetrobin

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Robb was already dead… Sansa is still the only Stark kid to lose her wolf.

Can’t lose something after you’ve died…

That isn't what you said, that's not what I argued with. You said she was the only one to have her wolf killed because she was the only one who behaved dishonorably. 

 

5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Oh my god…

That is not what was presented… there was not a technically true but biased story told.

"Joff told us what happened," the queen said. "You and the butcher boy beat him with clubs while you set your wolf on him."

There were objective lies, and she had the chance to tell the truth.

It’s a very simple plot point but this is like pulling teeth…

I didn't say what Joff said happened is what happened, I said what Springwatch said Sansa could have told Robert & Cersei is what happened. 

[Mourning Star]

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That isn't what you said, that's not what I argued with. You said she was the only one to have her wolf killed because she was the only one who behaved dishonorably. 

 

I didn't say what Joff said happened is what happened, I said what Springwatch said Sansa could have told Robert & Cersei is what happened. 

Sansa could have danced a jig and Joffrey could have apologized… but that’s not the story we read or are talking about… this is waste of time. Have good one

Edited November 4, 2022 by Mourning Star

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

No!

She could have told the truth!

Morality matters! Are we reading the same series? Lol

I think I've said (at least once, maybe more) that she could have told the truth. I have never once said her only option was to lie. I'm saying I understand why she lied, I understand that she didn't have a good option & that she was a child & picked what she thought was best. 

 

I certainly never said morality didn't matter. I'm just willing to give Sansa the benefit of the doubt here considering we know she isn't evil, we know she doesn't want to cause harm to her family, we know she was in a tough position, & we know she was a child...

5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Morality is not determined by outcome. This is like kindergarten philosophy 101, and why I quoted Varys pointing this truth out to Ned.

Enough, this is a waste of time

Of course you're free to stop responding at any time you wish. I have never said morality is determined by outcome. For all your condescending remarks you would think you would learn to read better. I'm not arguing that the morality is determined by outcome. I was pointing out what I believe to be Springwatch's point. You insinuated the point was the Sansa could have been worse, which I don't believe was their point at all. I was trying to offer some insight. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Sansa could have danced a jig and Joffrey could have apologized… but that’s not the story we read or are talking about… this is waste of time. Have good one

I'm not sure what you're getting worked up about but you said, not once, but twice that Sansa was the only Stark to have their wolf killed. After I pointed out, not once, but twice, that isn't true you moved the goal posts. 

 

I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is here. Springwatch said, basically - "you're right Sansa could have told the story but listen to how the story is told" & I agreed with that. You responded with what Joff told Cersei saying that isn't what happened. I'm telling you I wasn't saying what Joff said is the truth, I'm saying the story told by SW, set forth as what Sansa would have been telling, is the truth. 

[Mourning Star]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I was pointing out what I believe to be Springwatch's point. You insinuated the point was the Sansa could have been worse, which I don't believe was their point at all. I was trying to offer some insight. 

I don’t know what you are trying to say here… maybe it’s cause I don’t read good lol.

What point?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Mourning Star said:

I don’t know what you are trying to say here… maybe it’s cause I don’t read good lol.

What point?

*sigh* don't get offended when you were offensive first. You asked what SW's point was when they put forth the story Sansa would be telling to Cersei & Robert. I chimed in with what I believed to be their point.... 

[Mourning Star]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

*sigh* don't get offended when you were offensive first. You asked what SW's point was when they put forth the story Sansa would be telling to Cersei & Robert. I chimed in with what I believed to be their point.... 

You aren’t going to hurt my feelings… it’s ok, I’m pretty confident in my reading ability.

What was the point of the fan fiction account? Not only is it irrelevant it’s a waste of time.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Mourning Star

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

You aren’t going to hurt my feelings… it’s ok, I’m pretty confident in my reading ability.

What was the point of the fan fiction account? Not only is it irrelevant it’s a waste of time

Good. 

Please show me where I posted fanfic & I'll glady answer what the point was. 

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

What was the point of the fan fiction account? Not only is it irrelevant it’s a waste of time.

Meaning me? No fan fiction. Pure factful goodness, from the text.

In the spirit of mischief, I have to ask would it be honourable for Sansa to leave all the inconvenient bits out of her testimony, so as to make her family member look good? Is that how honourable Starkdom works?

[Springwatch]

Moving on to opinion - Arya misread the situation. Joffrey wasn't about to kill or maim Mycah, he was in the mood to impress Sansa, not horrify her. So he ignores the playfighting element, and acts out the tough guy hero, punishing the villain who struck his betrothed's sister. He's a bully - he wanted Mycah hurt and frightened, and he'd enjoy Sansa pleading for mercy too. That's where it would have ended. An ugly scene, but from Mycah's perspective, much better than what actually happened.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Moving on to opinion - Arya misread the situation. Joffrey wasn't about to kill or maim Mycah, he was in the mood to impress Sansa, not horrify her. So he ignores the playfighting element, and acts out the tough guy hero, punishing the villain who struck his betrothed's sister. He's a bully - he wanted Mycah hurt and frightened, and he'd enjoy Sansa pleading for mercy too. That's where it would have ended. An ugly scene, but from Mycah's perspective, much better than what actually happened.

I agree. Joff thought he was playing the knight in shining armor, he is just a douche & has no idea how to be a real gentleman. I can't lay the blame at Arya's feet any more than I can Sansa's though. Arya was defending her friend who was being wrongfully attacked. 

[Springwatch]

44 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I can't lay the blame at Arya's feet any more than I can Sansa's though. Arya was defending her friend who was being wrongfully attacked. 

That's it, exactly. Being involved in a bad situation doesn't make a person guilty of causing it. That applies to both Arya and Sansa.

[Nathan Stark]

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

How are you getting this?

I read the books.

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's true. But that could have been due to Ned's influence. I just don't think all Starks cared about honour like Ned.

Speaking of Benjen, why did he join the Watch? Ned and infant Robb seemed to be the only Starks alive at that point.

Out of guilt I believe. He was close with Lyanna so she probably confided in him and he knew of Lyanna and Rhaegar but kept his mouth shut just like Sansa did on the Trident.

As for Sansa, I really can't blame her on the trident, we've seen what a horrible little monster Arya was as a sister, on the other hand was the Queen and her betrothed who were both mostly nice to her. What I do blame her is going to Cersei and telling Ned wants them to take back North  despite the fact that Lady died because Cersei wanted it. Real dumb move there.

[Nathan Stark]

On 11/4/2022 at 9:44 AM, Mourning Star said:

What did Sansa tell Ned? What truth? It’s not clear that she defended her sister in the least.

As an older sibling her behavior (or lack) shocked me the first time I read it and it has always surprised me that people act like there was nothing she could do.

What Arya did was “not without honor”. Nymeria may be “lost” but not dead.

Sansa was not honorable, a famously Stark trait.

Sansa is the only Stark kid to have her wolf killed because she’s the only dishonorable one who chose to side against the family. (We could speculate about Jon/Ghost using the same reasoning).

The lone wolf dies.

"Winter is coming," Arya whispered.

"The hard cruel times," her father said. "We tastedthem on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you've never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya."

"The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

It seems like you are conflating the symbolism and the plot too. Cersei wanting a wolf pelt out of spite is a plot reason for Lady’s death, but symbolically this death is a repercussion of Sansa’s actions and who her character is. 

First you said Sansa lied to Ned "for days." Now, having demonstrated otherwise through a quote from the actual book, you move on to saying "it's not clear she defended her sister in the slightest." She didn't, but that's not the discussion here. Did Sansa lie to Ned "for days?" No, she didn't. I just proved that from the quote, and you didn't even try to engage. You moved goalposts. I've noticed this is a tactic you engage in quite often.

Again, you make the error of holding the same standards to Sansa, a 12 year old, as you would to an adult. No. She's a child behaving childishly, not a grown woman betraying her family out of spite. And yes, Sansa calling her wolf Lady is clearly a reflection of Sansa's own dreams and desires to become a respected noble Lady. That's why Cersei's order to kill Lady forshadows how she will treat Sansa later on; Cersei literally killed Sansa's dreams.

Lady's death is NOT a punishment for Sansa's actions, which, though childish, do not merit having a faithful pet killed. In fact, the only reason Lady died at all was because Arya forced Nymeria to run into the wild. The point is that Lady, an innocent, is wrongfully executed. It was an act of sadism on Cersei's part, not a moral act in response to some imaginary crime Sansa committed. You could just as easily argue that Micah's death was punishment for Arya's actions. It would be just as bad as the argument you're making.

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Nathan Stark

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 11/1/2022 at 6:22 AM, The Sleeper said:

Neither Littlefinger or Sansa, are trying to kill Sweetrobin. Littlefinger is Lord Protector because of Robert. He just has written him off as a future asset, so he is drugging him to keep up appearances with complete disregard about his long term health. As a method for murder it is hardly untraceable, unless he plans to kill the maester, too.

Sansa is, however, in denial. Maester Colemon has been quite clear about the eventual outcome of giving him sweetsleep. 

I don't know. Petyr's ambitions for Alayne to marry Harry the heir are all for nought if Sweet Robin lives to a ripe old age, right? 

[Craving Peaches]

14 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

What I do blame her is going to Cersei and telling Ned wants them to take back North  despite the fact that Lady died because Cersei wanted it. Real dumb move there.

It wasn't smart and it was possibly careless, but it wasn't done out of malice or spite, and the damage caused wasn't caused by Sansa intentionally or even that recklessly, so I can't count it as betrayal.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Craving Peaches

[Corvo the Crow]

31 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

but it wasn't done out of malice or spite, and the damage caused wasn't caused by Sansa intentionally 

All the worse, at least if she had done it intentioally, she would be able to think of the possible consequences. Where I live there’s a saying, better to have a smart enemy than a dumb ally. Sansa is, well rather was, real dumb, even for a 12 y.o. She’s one of my favorite characters because of how much her character has developer and still continues to do so. I must say I really disliked her at the beginning because of how airheaded she was, especially in the pov chapters but she learns her lessons, she does take her time in learning them but she learns them nonetheless, which is a thing we can’t say for many other characters, even those much smarter than her. but then again, there’s also the fact that she has survived her mistakes so many times through sheer luck or plot armor, whereas many others have died even in their first mistake. I think  she has been one of the most luckiest characters, along with Tyrion and Dany. 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I don't know. Petyr's ambitions for Alayne to marry Harry the heir are all for nought if Sweet Robin lives to a ripe old age, right? 

Well, as long as Tyrion is alive, Sansa “can’t” marry. She may marry as Alayne of course and in time may even  reveal her identity but as soon as  Tyrion surfaces, her marriage is poof gone and any children she had will be bastards. But… Baelish is of Braavosi origin and runs a brothel. Do wenperchance know a whore in Braavos that would make her marriage to Tyrion a void marriage? Who knows, perhaps as a Braavosi and a brothel owner Petyr has shown interest in brothels in Braavos, perhaps to a very particular one.

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Tyrion

Tyrion has the ultimate plot armour.