The Gizzard of Oz Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Robb Stark's worst sin is not the murder of Rickard Karstark. It was his betrayal of House Frey. He broke his oath to the Freys because he wanted Jeyne Westerling. He followed the calling of his heart instead of doing what he had sworn to do. This is far from a minor sin. Robb broke what is the equivalent of a contract and the other party is entitled to compensation. The cheated party is also entitled to inflict Robb with punitive damages. https://slate.com/business/2013/06/game-of-thrones-economics-red-wedding-robb-stark-and-breach-of-trust-in-marriage-alliances.html Robb Stark was the stronger party and punishing him was beyond the capabilities of the Freys. An ambush like the red wedding was the only means the Freys had to punish Robb. It was also the price requested by Lord Tywin before he allows the rebel lords Walder and Roose to win their way back to peace with King Joffrey. Seen from this view, what Walder decided is perfectly understandable. Roose had his own reason and even they can be justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Many-Faced Votary Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Robb married Jeyne because they had slept together, and that would have reflected very poorly on her and her alone due to the patriarchal nature of Westerosi society. As such, in order to preserve her honor and give her a future, he sacrificed his own honor (and, tragically, future) by violating the marriage pact. But, of course, you already knew that. That article has no compelling arguments whatsoever. It is the Lannisters, Freys , and Boltons who violated social conventions and norms. But, of course, you already knew that. I am fairly convinced that the anti-Stark brigade is one or two dedicated trolls with fifty accounts they log into at random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Roose Bolton and Walder Frey were tending their own affairs and then the Starks came along and forced them to war. I can see why Walder would demand a very high price for his cooperation. The marriage engagement was also his guarantee of protection. That guarantee became worthless after Robb showed his true colors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Many-Faced Votary Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 16 minutes ago, Rondo said: Roose Bolton and Walder Frey were tending their own affairs and then the Starks came along and forced them to war. https://bfy.tw/Tq5K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gizzard of Oz Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 40 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said: Robb married Jeyne because they had slept together, and that would have reflected very poorly on her and her alone due to the patriarchal nature of Westerosi society. As such, in order to preserve her honor and give her a future, he sacrificed his own honor (and, tragically, future) by violating the marriage pact. But, of course, you already knew that. That article has no compelling arguments whatsoever. It is the Lannisters, Freys , and Boltons who violated social conventions and norms. But, of course, you already knew that. I am fairly convinced that the anti-Stark brigade is one or two dedicated trolls with fifty accounts they log into at random. Robb was attracted to Jeyne and he wanted her. He didn't want to marry a Frey. He only made up justifications to support his decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Many-Faced Votary Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Just now, The Gizzard of Oz said: Robb was attracted to Jeyne and he wanted her. He didn't want to marry a Frey. He only made up justifications to support his decision. Feel free to link the fanfiction in which this is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord of the Crossing Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 50 minutes ago, The Gizzard of Oz said: Robb Stark's worst sin is not the murder of Rickard Karstark. It was his betrayal of House Frey. He broke his oath to the Freys because he wanted Jeyne Westerling. He followed the calling of his heart instead of doing what he had sworn to do. This is far from a minor sin. Robb broke what is the equivalent of a contract and the other party is entitled to compensation. The cheated party is also entitled to inflict Robb with punitive damages. https://slate.com/business/2013/06/game-of-thrones-economics-red-wedding-robb-stark-and-breach-of-trust-in-marriage-alliances.html Robb Stark was the stronger party and punishing him was beyond the capabilities of the Freys. An ambush like the red wedding was the only means the Freys had to punish Robb. It was also the price requested by Lord Tywin before he allows the rebel lords Walder and Roose to win their way back to peace with King Joffrey. Seen from this view, what Walder decided is perfectly understandable. Roose had his own reason and even they can be justified. The price of the crossing was perfectly reasonable. The Freys not only allowed the Starks to cross. They also sent men to help. The Freys fought for the Starks. Betrayal was the thanks they got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Many-Faced Votary Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 You know, you might want to try not having the exact same posting style across all of your accounts. Your trolling is already too implausible to be ineffective, so you should at least do a better job of pretending there is a group of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Many-Faced Votary Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Just now, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: Do not engage with them. They are not reasonable people. I was hoping for something, but the responses barely even follow conversational pragmatics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Stonehearts Simp Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said: I was hoping for something, but the responses barely even follow conversational pragmatics. They always say the same exact things. It’s never a debate. Literally every topic is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, The Gizzard of Oz said: Robb Stark's worst sin is not the murder of Rickard Karstark. It was his betrayal of House Frey. Nah. That wasn't his fault. Sybill betwitched him, so she could get a kingsblood baby for blood sorcery rituals. Of course, he was so honorable he felt he then had to marry her. Which was inconvenient, because now the Lannisters want the baby dead, which requires more scheming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, The Gizzard of Oz said: Robb Stark's worst sin is not the murder of Rickard Karstark. It was his betrayal of House Frey. Nah. That wasn't his fault. Sybill betwitched him, so she could get a kingsblood baby for blood sorcery rituals. Of course, he was so honorable he felt he then had to marry her. Which was inconvenient, because now the Lannisters want the baby dead, which requires more scheming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gizzard of Oz Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: Move along folks. Don’t stick your fingers in the exhibit. And for the love of Christ, DO NOT FEED THE TROLL! Move along and find something else if you don't like the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gizzard of Oz Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said: Robb married Jeyne because they had slept together, and that would have reflected very poorly on her and her alone due to the patriarchal nature of Westerosi society. As such, in order to preserve her honor and give her a future, he sacrificed his own honor (and, tragically, future) by violating the marriage pact. But, of course, you already knew that. That article has no compelling arguments whatsoever. It is the Lannisters, Freys , and Boltons who violated social conventions and norms. But, of course, you already knew that. I am fairly convinced that the anti-Stark brigade is one or two dedicated trolls with fifty accounts they log into at random. The important idea presented by the author of the linked article is simple. What Robb did, break his oath to the Freys, was a serious offense. It was not trivial at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 37 minutes ago, The Gizzard of Oz said: What Robb did, break his oath to the Freys, was a serious offense. It was not trivial at all. Murder will always be worse than breach of contract. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Murder will always be worse than breach of contract. Sorry. To be fair, it was more than just breaking a contract. They had bled, died and lost their heir fighting for him. There is absolutely no doubt that Robb betrayed them. I disagree with the op’s assertion that he did it because he ‘wanted’ JW, I think he was choosing between dishonours and possibly Jon’s plight made him choose the way he did. And obviously the RW was out of proportion. But I think expecting them to just get back in line with some negotiation (and, again, only once the Crossing became important again) was probably pretty disrespectful. I think that Robb should have expected to be treated like an untrustworthy enemy. But that doesn’t excuse breaking guest rights. Or, I mean it might, that’s a custom, not a law, but then the Freys should expect to pay the price for doing that, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, James Arryn said: To be fair, it was more than just breaking a contract. They had bled, died and lost their heir fighting for him. There is absolutely no doubt that Robb betrayed them. At it's heart it was breaking a contract though. I am not denying that Robb owed Freys some serious compensation. Broken contracts were a serious deal in those days, you couldn't just pay damages and have it all over and done with. People were entitled to private vengeance. But Robb breaking his contract does not seem to be a crime in the law of Westeros. Murdering your guests is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Stonehearts Simp Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Robb was ready and willing to pay them recompense. A marriage into the Tully’s was a more than adequate payment considering the original contract was gained purely through extortion. I have no sympathy for the Freys in regards to the broken pact. Absolutely zero. Lord Weasel is a mass murdering piece of shit, and is luckily walking wolf food at the moment. It’s a shame the few good Freys like Olyvar and Roslyn are gonna get caught up in justice being handed down on the Frey clan. Being so young however, I can only imagine how vile an apple they each could become when the whole damned tree they hang from is so rotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 After Tywin Lannister attacked the Riverlands, it was already Walder Frey’s duty, under feudal law, to march to the aid of his Tully overlords. Given that Robb was an ally to the Tullys, he actually had no business preventing his army from crossing the Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 16 minutes ago, SeanF said: After Tywin Lannister attacked the Riverlands, it was already Walder Frey’s duty, under feudal law, to march to the aid of his Tully overlords. Given that Robb was an ally to the Tullys, he actually had no business preventing his army from crossing the Trident. Feudal law does not obligate you to immediately march to the defence of your liege. At all. It varies depending upon the agreement, but generally it means providing X number of men and y number of arms and Z number of supplies for a stipulated number of days per year when officially requested through formal notification, and raising feudal levies takes a looong time. In Westeros lords who delay as long as possible without technically breaking their agreement are portrayed as the exception, but in RL they were the norm. Again, there is a conflation of post-nationalist loyalty with feudal loyalty. Feudal dynamics were basically the world if the mafia ran everything. Everyone is out for themselves, nothing is given voluntarily, everything you take is something I lose, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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