Robb's worst sin

[astarkchoice]

Robbs sin didnt justify the red wedding

The red wedding itself was a calculated act of cruelty to surgicaly end a rebellion and establish a new dynasty wiping out all resistance then and there.

Robb didnt deserve it , his insult to the freys simply opened the door for walder to begin listening to tywin (most likely through tywins sister joanna )

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

(most likely through tywins sister joanna )

Do you mean Genna? Joanna was his wife and dead by that point.

[astarkchoice]

34 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Do you mean Genna? Joanna was his wife and dead by that point.

Yes sorry genna

 

If joanna helped set up the red wedding that be sorta freaky

[divica]

On 4/12/2023 at 6:01 AM, SeanF said:

Another poor effort to justify evil.

The Lannisters attempt to murder a child; are nominally led by a boy psychopath, who enjoys ripping out tongues and sexually abusing an 11 year old girl;  inflict mass murder, starvation, and rape across the Riverlands.  Roose and Ramsay murder, flay, and rape for sport.  The Freys murder thousands at a wedding because they’re butthurt.

And you, @Rondo @Quoth the Raven @Darth Sidiousare all cheering them on.

For the sake of consistency, you should be on the side of Ghiscari slavers, and, in real life, of people like Dirlewanger or Beria. They’re your sort of people.

truth be told, some of robb's problems are because some of his followers kill or want to kill inocents/children.

robb's biggest sin is that he doesn't understand people. His mother, the karstarks, the freys, theon, balon, edmure, roose...

He must be doing something wrong if he is betrayed by a LOT of characters. And all of them for diferent reasons!

[Alester Florent]

7 minutes ago, divica said:

truth be told, some of robb's problems are because some of his followers kill or want to kill inocents/children.

robb's biggest sin is that he doesn't understand people. His mother, the karstarks, the freys, theon, balon, edmure, roose...

He must be doing something wrong if he is betrayed by a LOT of characters. And all of them for diferent reasons!

Robb is only actively betrayed by Theon, and the Freys and Boltons.

As I see it, Robb made four errors, which collectively lost him the war:

• Appointing Roose Bolton as commander of the eastern division. If he had gone with the Greatjon as he originally intended, or perhaps even Rickard Karstark, this might have avoided the betrayal by Roose or at the very least hindered its effectiveness, not permitting the eastern commander to degrade loyalist Stark forces prior to the Red Wedding. A bolder commander (e.g. the Greatjon) might also have made the most of the element of surprise and defeated Tywin at the Green Fork, which combined with the Whispering Wood would effectively win the war in the field at a stroke.
• Sending Theon to negotiate with Balon instead of literally anyone else, thereby not only returning their hostage and the main bargaining chip they have, but also providing Balon with someone with insight into the North's defences and allowing the fall of Winterfell.
• Expecting Edmure to intuit his plan to lure Tywin into the Westerlands.
• Shagging Jeyne Westerling. I don't view marrying her as a mistake so much as an inevitable consequence of this in the first place. If you're going to marry the first noble girl you bone, best keep it in your pants until your wedding night.

Of these I blame Cat for the first. Robb (who had been doing a bang-up job of managing his vassals and army up to that point without her help) instinctively believed that the independent command was a job for his most loyal commander, and Cat talked him out of it.

Not keeping Edmure informed is a failure of command but I think a legitimate question can be asked about what his advisers were telling him at the time. Did nobody really appreciate that Edmure had an army and a solid defensive position and would engage Tywin if he approached unless ordered otherwise? I wonder if this is a matter of Robb internalising criticism by others (including Cat) of Edmure's ability and treating him accordingly.

The other two are pure Robb, perhaps with some help from Sybell Spicer in the latter case pushing Jeyne forward at a time when he was housebound and emotionally vulnerable.

In each case, though, except Jeyne, the critical error is failing to understand the independent motivations and pressures of his subordinates. He takes people at their word and doesn't expect some of the ways in which they exercise their initiative. This is a major flaw in his character, but also one not uncommon in clever people of his age and the kind of thing that experience knocks out of you. Indeed I suspect these setbacks were probably sufficient to teach Robb that lesson and had he survived he wouldn't have made the same errors again.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

6 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Robb is only actively betrayed by Theon, and the Freys and Boltons.

As I see it, Robb made four errors, which collectively lost him the war:

• Appointing Roose Bolton as commander of the eastern division. If he had gone with the Greatjon as he originally intended, or perhaps even Rickard Karstark, this might have avoided the betrayal by Roose or at the very least hindered its effectiveness, not permitting the eastern commander to degrade loyalist Stark forces prior to the Red Wedding. A bolder commander (e.g. the Greatjon) might also have made the most of the element of surprise and defeated Tywin at the Green Fork, which combined with the Whispering Wood would effectively win the war in the field at a stroke.
• Sending Theon to negotiate with Balon instead of literally anyone else, thereby not only returning their hostage and the main bargaining chip they have, but also providing Balon with someone with insight into the North's defences and allowing the fall of Winterfell.
• Expecting Edmure to intuit his plan to lure Tywin into the Westerlands.
• Shagging Jeyne Westerling. I don't view marrying her as a mistake so much as an inevitable consequence of this in the first place. If you're going to marry the first noble girl you bone, best keep it in your pants until your wedding night.

Of these I blame Cat for the first. Robb (who had been doing a bang-up job of managing his vassals and army up to that point without her help) instinctively believed that the independent command was a job for his most loyal commander, and Cat talked him out of it.

Not keeping Edmure informed is a failure of command but I think a legitimate question can be asked about what his advisers were telling him at the time. Did nobody really appreciate that Edmure had an army and a solid defensive position and would engage Tywin if he approached unless ordered otherwise? I wonder if this is a matter of Robb internalising criticism by others (including Cat) of Edmure's ability and treating him accordingly.

The other two are pure Robb, perhaps with some help from Sybell Spicer in the latter case pushing Jeyne forward at a time when he was housebound and emotionally vulnerable.

In each case, though, except Jeyne, the critical error is failing to understand the independent motivations and pressures of his subordinates. He takes people at their word and doesn't expect some of the ways in which they exercise their initiative. This is a major flaw in his character, but also one not uncommon in clever people of his age and the kind of thing that experience knocks out of you. Indeed I suspect these setbacks were probably sufficient to teach Robb that lesson and had he survived he wouldn't have made the same errors again.

When it comes to Edmure, Robb DID tell Edmure to stay put at Riverrun. If Edmure had that extra it of information he would’ve listened, BUT Edmure did still technically disobey Robb’s orders.

[divica]

7 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Robb is only actively betrayed by Theon, and the Freys and Boltons.

As I see it, Robb made four errors, which collectively lost him the war:

• Appointing Roose Bolton as commander of the eastern division. If he had gone with the Greatjon as he originally intended, or perhaps even Rickard Karstark, this might have avoided the betrayal by Roose or at the very least hindered its effectiveness, not permitting the eastern commander to degrade loyalist Stark forces prior to the Red Wedding. A bolder commander (e.g. the Greatjon) might also have made the most of the element of surprise and defeated Tywin at the Green Fork, which combined with the Whispering Wood would effectively win the war in the field at a stroke.
• Sending Theon to negotiate with Balon instead of literally anyone else, thereby not only returning their hostage and the main bargaining chip they have, but also providing Balon with someone with insight into the North's defences and allowing the fall of Winterfell.
• Expecting Edmure to intuit his plan to lure Tywin into the Westerlands.
• Shagging Jeyne Westerling. I don't view marrying her as a mistake so much as an inevitable consequence of this in the first place. If you're going to marry the first noble girl you bone, best keep it in your pants until your wedding night.

Of these I blame Cat for the first. Robb (who had been doing a bang-up job of managing his vassals and army up to that point without her help) instinctively believed that the independent command was a job for his most loyal commander, and Cat talked him out of it.

Not keeping Edmure informed is a failure of command but I think a legitimate question can be asked about what his advisers were telling him at the time. Did nobody really appreciate that Edmure had an army and a solid defensive position and would engage Tywin if he approached unless ordered otherwise? I wonder if this is a matter of Robb internalising criticism by others (including Cat) of Edmure's ability and treating him accordingly.

The other two are pure Robb, perhaps with some help from Sybell Spicer in the latter case pushing Jeyne forward at a time when he was housebound and emotionally vulnerable.

In each case, though, except Jeyne, the critical error is failing to understand the independent motivations and pressures of his subordinates. He takes people at their word and doesn't expect some of the ways in which they exercise their initiative. This is a major flaw in his character, but also one not uncommon in clever people of his age and the kind of thing that experience knocks out of you. Indeed I suspect these setbacks were probably sufficient to teach Robb that lesson and had he survived he wouldn't have made the same errors again.

 

47 minutes ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

When it comes to Edmure, Robb DID tell Edmure to stay put at Riverrun. If Edmure had that extra it of information he would’ve listened, BUT Edmure did still technically disobey Robb’s orders.

are you saying that releasing jaime against robb's wishes and knowing how important he is for the northern troops isn't a betrayal? that trying to kill child hostages that robb ordered would be safe isn't a betrayal?

For one reason or another robb let things happened that made several characters act against him. Even if they didn't want to. And i think your list is wrong. Robb did a LOT of mistakes that led to several betrayals. However, not giving edmure a detailed account of his plans or shagging jeyne aren't mistakes.

 

First, they are in a war. If robb gives a order then his lords have to obey. There is a chain of command that people in a war have to follow because only the comanders know the full plans. And edmure wasn't in robb's inner circle. Him going against robb's orders is only his fault.

 

Second, shagging the girl isn't the problem. The problem is that robb cared more about his honnor/feelings than the welbeing of his people and the sucess of the war. we just have to look at ned that despite of the rumors that he was in love with ashara (and may have shagged her) married cat for the sucess of the war and to help his people. That is what a leader MUST do in dificult times.

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, divica said:

truth be told, some of robb's problems are because some of his followers kill or want to kill inocents/children.

robb's biggest sin is that he doesn't understand people. His mother, the karstarks, the freys, theon, balon, edmure, roose...

He must be doing something wrong if he is betrayed by a LOT of characters. And all of them for diferent reasons!

Decent people get betrayed all the time, for reasons of jealousy or greed.

[divica]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Decent people get betrayed all the time, for reasons of jealousy or greed.

decent people? ok.

Competent leaders? NO. It is impossibe to lead a large group of people if you are constantly being betrayed for different reasons.

[astarkchoice]

21 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Robb is only actively betrayed by Theon, and the Freys and Boltons.

As I see it, Robb made four errors, which collectively lost him the war:

• Appointing Roose Bolton as commander of the eastern division. If he had gone with the Greatjon as he originally intended, or perhaps even Rickard Karstark, this might have avoided the betrayal by Roose or at the very least hindered its effectiveness, not permitting the eastern commander to degrade loyalist Stark forces prior to the Red Wedding. A bolder commander (e.g. the Greatjon) might also have made the most of the element of surprise and defeated Tywin at the Green Fork, which combined with the Whispering Wood would effectively win the war in the field at a stroke.
• Sending Theon to negotiate with Balon instead of literally anyone else, thereby not only returning their hostage and the main bargaining chip they have, but also providing Balon with someone with insight into the North's defences and allowing the fall of Winterfell.
• Expecting Edmure to intuit his plan to lure Tywin into the Westerlands.
• Shagging Jeyne Westerling. I don't view marrying her as a mistake so much as an inevitable consequence of this in the first place. If you're going to marry the first noble girl you bone, best keep it in your pants until your wedding night.

Of these I blame Cat for the first. Robb (who had been doing a bang-up job of managing his vassals and army up to that point without her help) instinctively believed that the independent command was a job for his most loyal commander, and Cat talked him out of it.

Not keeping Edmure informed is a failure of command but I think a legitimate question can be asked about what his advisers were telling him at the time. Did nobody really appreciate that Edmure had an army and a solid defensive position and would engage Tywin if he approached unless ordered otherwise? I wonder if this is a matter of Robb internalising criticism by others (including Cat) of Edmure's ability and treating him accordingly.

The other two are pure Robb, perhaps with some help from Sybell Spicer in the latter case pushing Jeyne forward at a time when he was housebound and emotionally vulnerable.

In each case, though, except Jeyne, the critical error is failing to understand the independent motivations and pressures of his subordinates. He takes people at their word and doesn't expect some of the ways in which they exercise their initiative. This is a major flaw in his character, but also one not uncommon in clever people of his age and the kind of thing that experience knocks out of you. Indeed I suspect these setbacks were probably sufficient to teach Robb that lesson and had he survived he wouldn't have made the same errors again.

Agree with a lot of this except roose part

Roose as we know wasnt disloyal at 1st...his suprise attack very nearly ends the war! If his men had been ablw.to.march just a fraction faster,or a few more of tywins scouts taken out etc and hed have won the war there and then.

Id say with the greatjon commaning tywin would be more on guard for an attack...theres not much more greatjon could have done better it ess a well executed sneak attack just uncovered in the nick of time

[csuszka1948]

On 4/12/2023 at 4:10 AM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

 

Robb has to die.  He deserves to.  I think Walder would have been fine with that limited payback.  But the puzzle was how to kill Robb and get justice for the Freys.  The Freys and Boltons used trickery to get Robb into a defenseless position.  That was the only reason for the Red wedding from the Frey's point.  Roose, on the other hand, needed to assure the fall of the Stark family to secure his own safety. 

 

Justice for what? Robb breaking his word? Maybe (although it's dubious).

However, justice isn't killing thousands of men, unrelated to Robb, in a wedding, breaking guest rights.

[csuszka1948]

On 4/12/2023 at 11:33 PM, GZ Bloodraven said:

 

They should have fought him on the battlefield like men with balls, they broke guest right, trapped him and killed him.

 

I agree.

On 4/12/2023 at 11:33 PM, GZ Bloodraven said:

And their positions are really no better: they don't even control the Riverlands and now the Boltons and Freys are all dying at Winterfell. Had they just stayed the course, and helped Robb win or at least succeed in an independence movement, the Boltons and the Freys would both be in better positions; the Red Wedding was tactically idiotic, not to mention amoral, not to mention unjustified, and the fact that people defend it is, as others said, indicative of some absurd capacity to justify evil.

 

This is presentism. Robb was in a very clearly losing position in the Riverlands, Moat Cailin was occupied by thousands of Ironborn and they couldn't have foreseen that Balon,Joffrey and Tywin will die in quick succession and Stannis will come to the North.

That said, the way they conducted the betrayal (+in Roose' case abetting his bastard son who was responsible for much of the instability in the North) was very despicable and creates long-term instability, so it was stupid. The stupidity is obvious in the case of the Freys who had a very valid reason to simply turn cloak - almost nobody would have blamed them for it.

[csuszka1948]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:30 PM, Alester Florent said:

Robb is only actively betrayed by Theon, and the Freys and Boltons.

As I see it, Robb made four errors, which collectively lost him the war:

 

Accepting the crown was the biggest mistake, but was really a spur-of-the-moment decision so it's unfair to put much blame him.

The other two mistakes that I remember were

1) sending the Riverlords back to individually defend their lands

2) sending Catelyn to Renly without telling her his plans and giving potential alliance conditions. If an alliance was made between them it would be pretty important to inform Renly that Robb is planning to lure Tywin to the west (if that was really Robb's plan at the time) so he can take the capital as quickly as possible. (Obviously, this didn't end up mattering at the end)

Still, considering that Robb is a 15 year old boy, he did a decent job when it didn't come to matters of diplomacy.

[Nevets]

Robb made two really big mistakes: sending Theon to his father, and marrying Jeyne Westerling.  He made other mistakes too, but these were the ones that did him in, and were avoidable, and were clearly mistakes when he made them.

Catelyn advised him, quite strenuously, not to send Theon.  Her worries were mostly about Balon, but his turning Theon was a possibility.  And basically, Winterfell's loss is the result.  And that loss messed up pretty much everything else.

Screwing Jeyne was a bad idea, but not fatal in itself.  If discretion is observed and no pregnancy results, it needn't be generally known.  And if she happens to get pregnant, then if he wins he can arrange a good marriage.  If he loses, she's better off elsewhere.  And he really should be asking himself why the daughter of a vassal of Tywin is even willing to marry his chief foe.  He should have smelled a rat.

Appointing Roose as commander, accepting being King in the North, and not keeping Edmure in the loop were ultimately harmful, but were either unforseeable or unavoidable.  

Obviously, factors outside his control hurt as well (Catelyn releasing Jaime; Stannis losing at the Blackwater), but without the two big mistakes, he might have been relatively successful.