Robb's worst sin

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Robb was not justified to break his oath to Walder.  

Breaking guest rights is a serious offense.  Breaking an oath is just as bad an offense.  

Murdering 3,500 people, because you’re butthurt is evil.

i can’t help it if you think that hurting someone’s feelings justifies mass murder.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Breaking guest rights is a serious offense.  Breaking an oath is just as bad an offense.  

Wrong. Read the books then try again.

[Alester Florent]

42 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Breaking guest rights is a serious offense.  Breaking an oath is just as bad an offense.  

No it isn't.

Can someone with a better recollection of (or easier access to) the books please confirm whether Robb actually did give an oath to Walder to marry a Frey? Or was it just a regular agreement?

45 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Ramsay is not a hero.  Neither is a lord commander who betrayed the Order, his sworn brothers, and Westeros for his little sister.

Good job no lord commander in the books did that then.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Can someone with a better recollection of (or easier access to) the books please confirm whether Robb actually did give an oath to Walder to marry a Frey? Or was it just a regular agreement?

He didn't give Walder an oath, as has already been pointed out earlier in the thread to these people. Catelyn was the one involved in making the agreement, not Robb.

[Alester Florent]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He didn't give Walder an oath, as has already been pointed out earlier in the thread to these people. Catelyn was the one involved in making the agreement, not Robb.

Thank you.

[GZ Bloodraven]

2 hours ago, Rondo said:

Breaking guest rights is a serious offense.  Breaking an oath is just as bad an offense.  

Two wrongs don't make a right, this is kindergarten moral analysis. And shifting a betrothal is not that serious an offense. 

[Quoth the raven,]

On 3/19/2023 at 11:24 PM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Robb was a dumbass.  And naive.  It is basic to know to keep your own men loyal.  He kicked his own legs out from under himself. 

Robb had some early successes on the battle field but he was a bad pick for king of the north.  He was not an effective leader.  Thankfully the Starks lost and he never became king. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Thankfully the Starks lost and he never became king. 

Yeah, because now Mr. Psycho and his rapist deranged murderer son are in charge, obviously a much better choice than the St*rks, hahahah the North will really be better off now, well done on your outstanding analysis which shows you have read not a page of the source material.

Also, Robb did become King. In the. Very. First. Book.

[SeanF]

Even in-universe, everyone apart from the Freys sees the Red Wedding as evil.  No one outside that family justifies the act on the basis that Robb deserved it, for breaking a marriage contract.

Not even Tywin Lannister attempts to justify it as anything other than realpolitik.

If contemporaries think that the act was wicked, why on earth would any reader disagree?

[BalerionTheCat]

The sin was on the Frey side. Don't forget that. Some Freys are nice, good people. Some are no nastier than the average. If Robb is guilty of something, it was to consider an alliance with Walder.

Edited April 9, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[LongRider]

Let’s take it from the top.  His first sin was being born, even though he had nothing to do with it, it’s still on him. 

Then he became best buddies with that rascal half brother who was nothing but an embarrassing bastard and that was his fault too. 

Next his foolish parents educated him and taught him how to use weapons and dance and stuff, which he learned, more grave sins.  Robb also believed his traitor father that he deserved Winterfell, and that was his sln too.

Next the spoiled man child believed it when his father’s drunken sots called him king of the north.  All that really meant was “Dude!  Get us more wine!”
 

So off to battle they went, but mister king of the north needed his momma to hold his hand.  After she arranged the best  betrothal ever made in the history of all of Westeros, it was the GOAT of betrothals, he fucked it up by dallying with the local talent and married her when he was drunk.
 

What happened after that was all that he deserved.  I know this is true, I read all about it in the The Shade of the Evening Post!  

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by LongRider

[Craving Peaches]

39 minutes ago, LongRider said:

His first sin was being born, even though he had nothing to do with it, it’s still on him. 

Yes. He should have stopped his own conception. So selfish. And that selfishness only got worse later in life.

[LongRider]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes. He should have stopped his own conception. So selfish. And that selfishness only got worse later in life.

Exactly right!  He should have died in childbirth, would have been great for Westeros!   

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 4/6/2023 at 10:33 PM, Rondo said:

The wedding happened because Lord Walder and Roose needed to prove themselves to Tywin Lannister before they can be pardoned for the rebellion.  It was the only way those two could deliver a win against the Starks.  Walder turned his back on Robb in the first place because the crime referred to on this section by gizzard of Oz as the sin is a broken oath.  Robb made many bad choices but it was the breaking of an oath that got him, his direwolf, and his bannermen killed.  

 

On 4/7/2023 at 12:49 AM, GZ Bloodraven said:

But that doesn't give Walder the justification to break guest right. 

The Freys were dealt a bad card when Catelyn Starks made the irresponsible choice to take Tywin's son prisoner.  She had no authority to do that.  The best she could have done was to bring her case to Robert and let him deal with the matter.  Further trouble came when the Starks chose to rebel and brought their problems on Frey's doorstep.  Choose to face the wrath of a combined Stark + Tully and risk losing it all or rebel against their king.  Two bad choices but the Frey had to play.  He chose to side with the rebellion and negotiated payment in return.  The Starks swore to pay Walder back for siding and helping their rebellion.  We know what happened.  Robb betrayed the Freys. 

Robb has to die.  He deserves to.  I think Walder would have been fine with that limited payback.  But the puzzle was how to kill Robb and get justice for the Freys.  The Freys and Boltons used trickery to get Robb into a defenseless position.  That was the only reason for the Red wedding from the Frey's point.  Roose, on the other hand, needed to assure the fall of the Stark family to secure his own safety. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Here's Looking At You, Kid

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

 

The Freys were dealt a bad card when Catelyn Starks made the irresponsible choice to take Tywin's son prisoner.  She had no authority to do that.  The best she could have done was to bring her case to Robert and let him deal with the matter.  Further trouble came when the Starks chose to rebel and brought their problems on Frey's doorstep.  Choose to face the wrath of a combined Stark + Tully and risk losing it all or rebel against their king.  Two bad choices but the Frey had to play.  He chose to side with the rebellion and negotiated payment in return.  The Starks swore to pay Walder back for siding and helping their rebellion.  We know what happened.  Robb betrayed the Freys. 

Robb has to die.  He deserves to.  I think Walder would have been fine with that limited payback.  But the puzzle was how to kill Robb and get justice for the Freys.  The Freys and Boltons used trickery to get Robb into a defenseless position.  That was the only reason for the Red wedding from the Frey's point.  Roose, on the other hand, needed to assure the fall of the Stark family to secure his own safety. 

Another poor effort to justify evil.

The Lannisters attempt to murder a child; are nominally led by a boy psychopath, who enjoys ripping out tongues and sexually abusing an 11 year old girl;  inflict mass murder, starvation, and rape across the Riverlands.  Roose and Ramsay murder, flay, and rape for sport.  The Freys murder thousands at a wedding because they’re butthurt.

And you, @Rondo @Quoth the Raven @Darth Sidiousare all cheering them on.

For the sake of consistency, you should be on the side of Ghiscari slavers, and, in real life, of people like Dirlewanger or Beria. They’re your sort of people.

Edited April 12, 2023 by SeanF

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Robb has to die.  He deserves to.

I assume then that you have honoured every single promise and contract you have ever made, since you seem to think the death penalty plus mass murderer of innocents is an appropriate penalty for not doing so?

Or do you gloss over the fact that Walder didn't just kill Robb but all the innocent soldiers and nobles that had nothing to do with Robb's 'betrayal' as well?

[Aldarion]

6 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

 

The Freys were dealt a bad card when Catelyn Starks made the irresponsible choice to take Tywin's son prisoner.  She had no authority to do that.  The best she could have done was to bring her case to Robert and let him deal with the matter.  Further trouble came when the Starks chose to rebel and brought their problems on Frey's doorstep.  Choose to face the wrath of a combined Stark + Tully and risk losing it all or rebel against their king.  Two bad choices but the Frey had to play.  He chose to side with the rebellion and negotiated payment in return.  The Starks swore to pay Walder back for siding and helping their rebellion.  We know what happened.  Robb betrayed the Freys. 

Robb has to die.  He deserves to.  I think Walder would have been fine with that limited payback.  But the puzzle was how to kill Robb and get justice for the Freys.  The Freys and Boltons used trickery to get Robb into a defenseless position.  That was the only reason for the Red wedding from the Frey's point.  Roose, on the other hand, needed to assure the fall of the Stark family to secure his own safety. 

Walder Frey was perfectly within his rights to say "screw you", pack his troops and go home. Which he did. And then when Robb came begging, he was again perfectly within his rights to deny him. It is not like Robb could have taken the Twins easily, or at all, in fact. And Walder was perfectly justified to ally with Tywin.

He was not justified in breaking the guest right. Do you even understand what guest right is?

[astarkchoice]

On 4/9/2023 at 11:57 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

The sin was on the Frey side. Don't forget that. Some Freys are nice, good people. Some are no nastier than the average. If Robb is guilty of something, it was to consider an alliance with Walder.

To be fair he had 0 choice..the twins needed to be passed.

If only hoster had swalloed some pride and married edmure to one of the stoats earlier

[GZ Bloodraven]

19 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The Freys were dealt a bad card when Catelyn Starks made the irresponsible choice to take Tywin's son prisoner.  She had no authority to do that.  The best she could have done was to bring her case to Robert and let him deal with the matter.  Further trouble came when the Starks chose to rebel and brought their problems on Frey's doorstep.  Choose to face the wrath of a combined Stark + Tully and risk losing it all or rebel against their king.  Two bad choices but the Frey had to play.  He chose to side with the rebellion and negotiated payment in return.  The Starks swore to pay Walder back for siding and helping their rebellion.  We know what happened.  Robb betrayed the Freys. 

Catelyn was justified but irresponsible in taking who she assumed to be her son's attempted murderer. Cersei killed Robert though, and Joffrey would have been dealing with it (in the what if). The Freys were promised a marriage, and they got a marriage. Now, 

19 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Robb has to die.  He deserves to.  I think Walder would have been fine with that limited payback.  But the puzzle was how to kill Robb and get justice for the Freys.  The Freys and Boltons used trickery to get Robb into a defenseless position.  That was the only reason for the Red wedding from the Frey's point.  Roose, on the other hand, needed to assure the fall of the Stark family to secure his own safety. 

They should have fought him on the battlefield like men with balls, they broke guest right, trapped him and killed him. And their positions are really no better: they don't even control the Riverlands and now the Boltons and Freys are all dying at Winterfell. Had they just stayed the course, and helped Robb win or at least succeed in an independence movement, the Boltons and the Freys would both be in better positions; the Red Wedding was tactically idiotic, not to mention amoral, not to mention unjustified, and the fact that people defend it is, as others said, indicative of some absurd capacity to justify evil.

[The Wolves]

On 4/9/2023 at 3:05 AM, SeanF said:

Even in-universe, everyone apart from the Freys sees the Red Wedding as evil.  No one outside that family justifies the act on the basis that Robb deserved it, for breaking a marriage contract.

Not even Tywin Lannister attempts to justify it as anything other than realpolitik.

If contemporaries think that the act was wicked, why on earth would any reader disagree?

And in Westeros in a few years nobody would have remembered what Robb did. 
 

But everyone will remember what the Freys did.