The Targaryen Morality

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't really fit with things. Ice was acquired roughly 400 years before Robert's reign by the Starks - which, if entirely accurate, would mean in the year 117 BC, i.e. three years before Aenar Targaryen moved his ass to Dragonstone and 15 years before the Doom. We also hear that it was spell-forged in Valyria, i.e. not on Dragonstone before the Doom.

 

370(just as an example) years may very well be rounded up to 400, we see similar rounding ups in the story many times for many things from years to soldier numbers. In fact, in the main books numbers are almost always rounded up, with the single exception of being rounded down I can remember is crown's debt to the faith. As for spell forging in Valyria, what did Aenar do with all the money he got from selling lands etc? Buying bunch of Valyrian Steel items really is more efficient in both space and weight than buying precious stones etc.

 

[Lord Varys]

27 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

370(just as an example) years may very well be rounded up to 400, we see similar rounding ups in the story many times for many things from years to soldier numbers. In fact, in the main books numbers are almost always rounded up, with the single exception of being rounded down I can remember is crown's debt to the faith. As for spell forging in Valyria, what did Aenar do with all the money he got from selling lands etc? Buying bunch of Valyrian Steel items really is more efficient in both space and weight than buying precious stones etc.

As I said - during the twelve years before the Doom I could see Aenar also doing some Valyrian steel selling. But not that much since he expected Valyria to disappear sooner than later, and then he could even make more money with stashed Valyrian steel weapons.

But the fact that the Targaryens just have two Valyrian steel swords - and apparently no Valyrian armor nor other major weapons or artifacts made of Valyrian steel - in recorded history makes me doubt they ever had many of Valyrian steel weapons.

They are said to have been a rather modest dragonlord house - Aenar had but five dragons when he left Valyria - so I'd rather assume that the original dragonlords building the citadel of Dragonstone and hanging out there were more powerful and wealthier dragonlords.

Aenar may have wasted a lot of his ready coin to actually buy Dragonstone from the Lords Freeholder. Dragonstone was an Valyrian outpost and Aenar the Exile didn't just accept the position of governor or archon of Dragonstone on behalf of the Freehold - he left his home for good, taking all his possessions with him. One imagines purchasing Dragonstone as his private domain didn't come cheap. Like it would have also cost the Free Cities a lot of money to buy the right to govern themselves - which they did, too.

[Kierria]

On 2/17/2023 at 5:28 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

The Targaryens came to Dragonstone with a formidable company of dragons, weapons, allies, and ships.  They could have captured the weaker people of the West and sold them to slavery to build their wealth.  They did not do so.  Aegon even fought against the slave-owning state of Volantis and burned their fleet.  Profit was not a motive for the Targaryens.  The family was not greedy.  Put another family in their place and they would have used their dragons to subdue their neighbors and take their assets.  That is what a family like the Lannisters would have done. 

Many readers believe the making of Valyrian steel required human sacrifice.  The metal had great value.  The Targaryens could have built a factory on Dragonstone and sold these weapons for huge profit.  But they chose not to.  Many prominent Targaryens settled for regular steel rather than sacrifice the lives of people to make VS. 

The Targaryens left behind many of the darker customs of Valyria.  They only took their household slaves to Dragonstone to save them from the Doom.  These household slaves, who were really servants, were taken to Dragonstone and enjoyed the protection of Aenar and his family. 

The most important evidence of Targaryen morality is the fact that they did not use their powers for gain.  Use your imagination and think what a Westerosi noble family would have done if they had the power of the Targaryens.  The Targaryens chose to do good, to unify an unruly land and gave the people of their new kingdom a better government than they deserved.  Every family will have its share of asses but the Targaryens were pretty good people when compared to the other nobles in Westeros. 

The Targaryens were looking at the bigger picture while the ruling class beneath them were only looking to serve the interests of their own family.  The Targaryens cared about the peasants too. 

[Kierria]

15 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The Targaryens could have taken advantage of their monopoly on power and abused the people of their Seven Kingdoms but they didn't.  They were the only ones who could be trusted with dragons and power.  Sure they had Aerys 2, Baelor, and Aegon 4, but that was only three bad kings in three centuries of unbroken rule.  Take the example of Aerys 2 and even then the people were living well under his reign.  How many shitty leaders has your country had in that span of time.

Four in a row for the U.S.

[Corvo the Crow]

16 hours ago, Kierria said:

The Targaryens were looking at the bigger picture while the ruling class beneath them were only looking to serve the interests of their own family.  The Targaryens cared about the peasants too. 

Is that why they raped peasant brides? They cared for the peasants and wanted them not to be ugly so spared some of their seeds for them? 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 2/17/2023 at 5:28 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

The Targaryens came to Dragonstone with a formidable company of dragons, weapons, allies, and ships.  They could have captured the weaker people of the West and sold them to slavery to build their wealth.  They did not do so.  Aegon even fought against the slave-owning state of Volantis and burned their fleet.  Profit was not a motive for the Targaryens.  The family was not greedy.  Put another family in their place and they would have used their dragons to subdue their neighbors and take their assets.  That is what a family like the Lannisters would have done. 

Many readers believe the making of Valyrian steel required human sacrifice.  The metal had great value.  The Targaryens could have built a factory on Dragonstone and sold these weapons for huge profit.  But they chose not to.  Many prominent Targaryens settled for regular steel rather than sacrifice the lives of people to make VS. 

The Targaryens left behind many of the darker customs of Valyria.  They only took their household slaves to Dragonstone to save them from the Doom.  These household slaves, who were really servants, were taken to Dragonstone and enjoyed the protection of Aenar and his family. 

The most important evidence of Targaryen morality is the fact that they did not use their powers for gain.  Use your imagination and think what a Westerosi noble family would have done if they had the power of the Targaryens.  The Targaryens chose to do good, to unify an unruly land and gave the people of their new kingdom a better government than they deserved.  Every family will have its share of asses but the Targaryens were pretty good people when compared to the other nobles in Westeros. 

The Targaryens were more ethical in general.  The number of able rulers outnumbered the marginal.  Even Aerys gave the realm many years of peace and prosperity.  Which is something Robert Baratheon and his followers were never able to do. 

I have said this many times on this forum, I would choose Daenerys to rule Westeros over anybody.  I think she has the right talent to bring the unruly kingdoms back in line. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Even Aerys gave the realm many years of peace and prosperity.  Which is something Robert Baratheon

Actually from the end of the Greyjoy Rebellion until Robert's death the Kingdom was at peace. That is like a decade of peace. And most of it was in summer, so people could grow things and had plenty to eat. Peace means more trade so more wealth coming into the country. So claiming Robert was never able to give the realm many years of peace and prosperity is false.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Actually from the end of the Greyjoy Rebellion until Robert's death the Kingdom was at peace. That is like a decade of peace. And most of it was in summer, so people could grow things and had plenty to eat. Peace means more trade so more wealth coming into the country. So claiming Robert was never able to give the realm many years of peace and prosperity is false.

Not to mention that the successes Aerys had happened despite him, not because of him. 

[StarkTullies]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not to mention that the successes Aerys had happened despite him, not because of him.

Yes, and Tywin Lannister wiped out two entire houses during Aerys's reign, smallfolk included.  (So much for smallfolk prosperity under Aerys the Magnificent.)  Not only did Aerys not punish Tywin for his reprehensible acts, but he rewarded the monster by naming him as his Hand.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Yes, and Tywin Lannister wiped out two entire houses during Aerys's reign, smallfolk included.  (So much for smallfolk prosperity under Aerys the Magnificent.)  Not only did Aerys not punish Tywin for his reprehensible acts, but he rewarded the monster by naming him as his Hand.

Precisely. Peas in a pod, one atrociously vile and ‘competent’, the other atrociously vile and mad. 

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Precisely. Peas in a pod, one atrociously vile and ‘competent’, the other atrociously vile and mad. 

Given his enjoyment of nasty, sexualised punishments, I would not be surprised if it were Tywin who suggested the brutal torture of Serala of Myr.

He and Aerys were equally vile men.

[Ring3r]

On 2/17/2023 at 4:28 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

The Targaryens came to Dragonstone with a formidable company of dragons, weapons, allies, and ships.  They could have captured the weaker people of the West and sold them to slavery to build their wealth.  They did not do so.  Aegon even fought against the slave-owning state of Volantis and burned their fleet.  Profit was not a motive for the Targaryens.  The family was not greedy.  Put another family in their place and they would have used their dragons to subdue their neighbors and take their assets.  That is what a family like the Lannisters would have done. 

Many readers believe the making of Valyrian steel required human sacrifice.  The metal had great value.  The Targaryens could have built a factory on Dragonstone and sold these weapons for huge profit.  But they chose not to.  Many prominent Targaryens settled for regular steel rather than sacrifice the lives of people to make VS. 

The Targaryens left behind many of the darker customs of Valyria.  They only took their household slaves to Dragonstone to save them from the Doom.  These household slaves, who were really servants, were taken to Dragonstone and enjoyed the protection of Aenar and his family. 

The most important evidence of Targaryen morality is the fact that they did not use their powers for gain.  Use your imagination and think what a Westerosi noble family would have done if they had the power of the Targaryens.  The Targaryens chose to do good, to unify an unruly land and gave the people of their new kingdom a better government than they deserved.  Every family will have its share of asses but the Targaryens were pretty good people when compared to the other nobles in Westeros. 

ALL of this is dependent on the recently introduced idea that Aegon I was aware of the future, through his ancestor.

That may be true....or it may not be. We simply don't know yet.  What parts will GRRM capitalize on?  Hell if I know, I'm not the author.

That said, it seems well established that magic requires sacrifice. If I were a writer, and I am not, I would require a very..VERY....important sacrifice....to empower somebody.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Actually from the end of the Greyjoy Rebellion until Robert's death the Kingdom was at peace. That is like a decade of peace. And most of it was in summer, so people could grow things and had plenty to eat. Peace means more trade so more wealth coming into the country. So claiming Robert was never able to give the realm many years of peace and prosperity is false.

Robert's reign is just a tinderbox waiting to explode - and Balon didn't even wait for his death to explode. Jaehaerys I is more or less in a similar position as Robert when he takes the throne after Maegor's death - and he shows what you do to ensure your reign is secure and people don't continue to plot against you. Robert effectively did the opposite of all that. And then his rule pretty much sucked, with him creating multiple parties at court which all loathed each other - his wife and heir, his brother Stannis, his brother Renly, his last Hand ... and then he also kept/appointed the worst capable men (Varys, Littlefinger). How bad the regime was you see that its corruption and outright villainy ends up motivating Barristan Selmy to crawl back to the Targaryens.

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert's reign is just a tinderbox waiting to explode -

Yes, but it didn't really explode until he died. And Westeros was at peace for roughly a decade during his reign. So to claim that he couldn't manage to bring peace was wrong. He brought a decade of peace.

[StarkTullies]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How bad the regime was you see that its corruption and outright villainy ends up motivating Barristan Selmy to crawl back to the Targaryens.

That's not why Barristan Selmy crawled back to the Targaryens.  He would have served King Joffrey for life and turned a blind eye to his atrocities just like he did to Mad King Aerys, except that Joffrey dismissed him from his services.  Also note that Barristan did not abandon King Robert during his "corrupt and villainous" regime.

And he left Westeros looking for Viserys.  Viserys was noted for being a bad person who would make a terrible king, and yet Barristan sought after him anyway.  I give him credit for holding back from Dany until he decided that he didn't see "the taint", but the great honorability of Barristan is greatly overrated.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, StarkTullies said:

That's not why Barristan Selmy crawled back to the Targaryens.  He would have served King Joffrey for life and turned a blind eye to his atrocities just like he did to Mad King Aerys, except that Joffrey dismissed him from his services.  Also note that Barristan did not abandon King Robert during his "corrupt and villainous" regime.

And he left Westeros looking for Viserys.  Viserys was noted for being a bad person who would make a terrible king, and yet Barristan sought after him anyway.  I give him credit for holding back from Dany until he decided that he didn't see "the taint", but the great honorability of Barristan is greatly overrated.

The dismissal was the straw that broke the camel's back - it wasn't the sole cause of his decision. Note that Barristan could have also gone to Stannis or Renly. But he didn't - that he didn't was Robert's fault for allowing the man to live/remain in his KG.

Jaehaerys I was smart and got rid of all of Maegor's KG.

[kissdbyfire]

The straw that broke the camel’s back that wouldn’t have been broken otherwise, not w/ 100 ton of straw piled up on it. 

[Hugorfonics]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The dismissal was the straw that broke the camel's back - it wasn't the sole cause of his decision. Note that Barristan could have also gone to Stannis or Renly. But he didn't - that he didn't was Robert's fault for allowing the man to live/remain in his KG.

Jaehaerys I was smart and got rid of all of Maegor's KG.

Varys is the one who dismissed him, and Varys is the one who put all the arrow signs up for Barri to follow 

[Lord Varys]

Barristan wouldn't have taken Joff's girl-beating shit - under Aerys II the KG did have to witness terrible things done by royal hands or arranged by royal command. But it is an altogether different thing to turn the KG into thugs. Their honor and duty revolve around protecting the king - not protecting the king while shaming themselves. Which is what Joff did and which is something that even got to the men who obeyed his commands (like Arys Oakheart).

[Hugorfonics]

It gets to them and they do it. That's what Hightower taugjt Jaime.

Most knights are thugs, KG just has the 7 most thuggish