GOT Musings

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Aegon will likely overthrow the Tyrells and the Lannisters, especially since his “friends in the Reach” will be ready to stab them in the backs. Which means they’ll throw their support behind Dany so that she can restore them.

I think Cersei/Euron is probably from the books. TWOIAF mentioned many marriages between the Lannisters and the Ironborn prior to the Conquest. The only other option for Cersei besides fleeing west and teaming up with someone (we know it ain’t Stannis and it’s probably not Dany) is for her to be taken captive in the Red Keep like Alicent. And Cersei has fallen for a pretty face before.

Re: Cersei blowing up KL, I really think that’s just a fan theory that the show did as fan service, much like Cleganebowl. As far as I recall, Cersei doesn’t know about the wildfire under the city, right?

I agree with all of that.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Back to FCKAD, S5 clearly did a number on D&D. Not just because of Sansa (or Stannis, though that isn’t mentioned), but also Dorne. They clearly didn’t expect it to flop the way it did. And the lesson they took away from it wasn’t that they needed better writers, but that the audience wasn’t interested in new characters. And when you think about it, the only new major character who was introduced after that was Euron.

[csuszka1948]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Back to FCKAD, S5 clearly did a number on D&D. Not just because of Sansa (or Stannis, though that isn’t mentioned), but also Dorne. They clearly didn’t expect it to flop the way it did. And the lesson they took away from it wasn’t that they needed better writers, but that the audience wasn’t interested in new characters. And when you think about it, the only new major character who was introduced after that was Euron.

 

Yes, I agree. Although I believe they had a very difficult task with season 5 - if they wanted to stay completely true to the story, they would have needed to introduce a ton of new characters (Ironborn plotline with Euron and Victarion, Northern plotline with Manderlies, Riverlander with LS, Dornish with Arianne, and Young Griff with his entourage) despite the fact that even GRRM didn't clearly know how will their story end. Leaving out a few seemingly irrelevant things in the first seasons (Jeyne, the Horn of Joramun) also hurt. 

For example, who should have they married to Ramsay? What should have they done if GRRM told them that Sansa's storyline will link up with Aegon, a character that is extremely difficult to introduce so late? What should have they done if GRRM told them that Euron is going to blow the Horn of Winter atop the Hightower, something they haven't introduced? 

Obviously, the Sansa rape scene was completely unnecessary and the entire Meereenese plot was stupid, especially the pit scene (where they had a perfectly good scene to borrow from the books!), but they tried to somewhat keep to the plot of the books.

 

I think the main problem was that season 6 was relatively well-received (despite all stupidity with Ramsay getting away with murdering his father, Euron with murdering his brother, Sandsnakes with murdering their family, and Cersei with blowing up the Sept), so D&D started to believe that they can write a good plot on their own. If season 6 were a failure, they would have hired someone to write for them. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 4/27/2023 at 6:34 PM, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, I agree. Although I believe they had a very difficult task with season 5 - if they wanted to stay completely true to the story, they would have needed to introduce a ton of new characters (Ironborn plotline with Euron and Victarion, Northern plotline with Manderlies, Riverlander with LS, Dornish with Arianne, and Young Griff with his entourage) despite the fact that even GRRM didn't clearly know how will their story end. Leaving out a few seemingly irrelevant things in the first seasons (Jeyne, the Horn of Joramun) also hurt. 

For example, who should have they married to Ramsay? What should have they done if GRRM told them that Sansa's storyline will link up with Aegon, a character that is extremely difficult to introduce so late? What should have they done if GRRM told them that Euron is going to blow the Horn of Winter atop the Hightower, something they haven't introduced? 

Obviously, the Sansa rape scene was completely unnecessary and the entire Meereenese plot was stupid, especially the pit scene (where they had a perfectly good scene to borrow from the books!), but they tried to somewhat keep to the plot of the books.

 

I think the main problem was that season 6 was relatively well-received (despite all stupidity with Ramsay getting away with murdering his father, Euron with murdering his brother, Sandsnakes with murdering their family, and Cersei with blowing up the Sept), so D&D started to believe that they can write a good plot on their own. If season 6 were a failure, they would have hired someone to write for them. 

In addition to finally seeing the Starks get a win, people like spectacle and people like violence, both of which S6 gave them in spades. A lot of people upset about what happened to Daenerys don’t seem to actually care that much that she murdered thousands of innocent people. They’re bothered more that the rest of the characters in-universe saw her as a villain after that. The fantasy ended. Same with Jon not being the hero who slew the monster.

A little while back, I read a comment saying that one of the smartest things GOT did was turn Jon into a straightforward hero, since there wasn’t one in Westeros after Ned and Robb died. It made me wonder if that’s part of the reason why Jaime is so beloved among book fans, since he’s the closest thing Westeros has to that after ASOS.

Edited May 29, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

In addition to finally seeing the Starks get a win, people like spectacle and people like violence, both of which S7 gave them in spades. A lot of people upset about what happened to Daenerys don’t seem to actually care that much that she murdered thousands of innocent people. They’re bothered more that the rest of the characters in-universe saw her as a villain after that. The fantasy ended. Same with Jon not being the hero who slew the monster.

A little while back, I read a comment saying that one of the smartest things GOT did was turn Jon into a straightforward hero, since there wasn’t one in Westeros after Ned and Robb died. It made me wonder if that’s part of the reason why Jaime is so beloved among book fans, since he’s the closest thing Westeros has to that after ASOS.

Wouldn’t you say Jon is heroic in ADWD (albeit pretty ruthless)?  I found the rather grittier Jon of the books a lot better than his show counterpart. And, from Season 7 onwards, Jon was increasingly portrayed as both weak and ineffectual.

I certainly don’t see Jaime as a hero.

WRT to Daenerys, I think the issue was more that other characters (Sam, Arya, Sansa, Varys) were treating her as a villain before she had done anything to merit it.  Which made them appear faithless and disloyal.  (And yes, Sam's upset about his father and brother, but he's supposed to be a scholar, and would know very well the likely fate of those who would fight for Cersei, against their own liege, lose, and then turn down the offer of a pardon).

Edited April 28, 2023 by SeanF

[illrede]

On 4/25/2023 at 7:36 AM, SeanF said:

I don't see why "Mad Queen Daenerys" would be needed to produce a huge conflict in Jon, if Daenerys and his siblings were at odds politically.

People can come into political conflict (over say, Northern independence) without either party being "mad."

 

I suppose it wouldn't be, but "a few times burned, never shy again" Daenerys would help getting the crisis to the point it was a binary decision- you could plausibly buy Sansa off with Ironborn depopulated (nobility speaking) regions of the Reach (and let her play with her neighbors for a while), give Arya a ship and a pension, and sleep peacefully otherwise.

[Angel Eyes]

14 hours ago, SeanF said:

Wouldn’t you say Jon is heroic in ADWD (albeit pretty ruthless)?  I found the rather grittier Jon of the books a lot better than his show counterpart. And, from Season 7 onwards, Jon was increasingly portrayed as both weak and ineffectual.

I certainly don’t see Jaime as a hero.

WRT to Daenerys, I think the issue was more that other characters (Sam, Arya, Sansa, Varys) were treating her as a villain before she had done anything to merit it.  Which made them appear faithless and disloyal.  (And yes, Sam's upset about his father and brother, but he's supposed to be a scholar, and would know very well the likely fate of those who would fight for Cersei, against their own liege, lose, and then turn down the offer of a pardon).

There was always going to be some tension with Sansa and Arya from the get-go given their families' histories (Daenerys' father had their grandfather cooked alive and their uncle strangled), plus Daenerys should at least be wary of Varys given he was a high-ranking member of King Robert's court and at the least sanctioned an attempt on her life. Plus there was the question of Northern independence with Sansa, which neither tried to negotiate. Furthermore with Daenerys and Sansa, they were somewhat similar; both were married off and abused (while Daenerys gets Stockholm (not Helsinki) Syndrome in the books, she still acknowledges it as a hardship she had to bear in the show), and were only now really getting political power. Think of the idea with magnets where similar poles push each other apart.

[SeanF]

29 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

There was always going to be some tension with Sansa and Arya from the get-go given their families' histories (Daenerys' father had their grandfather cooked alive and their uncle strangled), plus Daenerys should at least be wary of Varys given he was a high-ranking member of King Robert's court and at the least sanctioned an attempt on her life. Plus there was the question of Northern independence with Sansa, which neither tried to negotiate. Furthermore with Daenerys and Sansa, they were somewhat similar; both were married off and abused (while Daenerys gets Stockholm (not Helsinki) Syndrome in the books, she still acknowledges it as a hardship she had to bear in the show), and were only now really getting political power. Think of the idea with magnets where similar poles push each other apart.

I get the initial wariness towards her, fully.  But, “you find your true friends on the battlefield” as the Ned put it.  The valour that Dany and her soldiers displayed, and the casualties they sustained, did nothing to lessen the Starks’, and their vassals’, hostility.

Which comes over as distinctly unappealing. 

[Angel Eyes]

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I get the initial wariness towards her, fully.  But, “you find your true friends on the battlefield” as the Ned put it.  The valour that Dany and her soldiers displayed, and the casualties they sustained, did nothing to lessen the Starks’, and their vassals’, hostility.

Which comes over as distinctly unappealing. 

Again, Daenerys never really tried to build a rapport with anyone except Sansa, and again she barely tried.

As far as finding friends on the battlefield Daenerys spent most of the battle on her high horse so to speak for most of it and wasn't fighting along anybody except Jon (via dragonback) and Jorah (who she'd already worked with and was subsequently killed). So circumstances prevented that relationship from being established with anyone other than them.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Angel Eyes

[csuszka1948]

On 4/25/2023 at 4:10 PM, SeanF said:

Jorah is such a horrid old pervert in the books, and so plainly desperate to get into Dany's knickers, that it would almost certainly be jealousy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously, I am just saying that many people (who were against Dany) might praise him for his 'heroic deed'.

I am 100% sure that Dany won't burn down an entire city just to make people fear her as in the show, though. That's completely out of character from her, no matter what character development she goes through. In the show, she was consistently more violent from the start of season 2, with Dany even forcing (!) poor Hizdahr to marry him.

A 'reverse scenario' of Stoney Sept where Aegon is hidden by the citizens of KL and Dany torches part of the city down to get him, it results in the wildfire caches igniting and Dany gets blamed (understandably) is much more viable. Although it' s difficult to see how would Dany even get to the point where she commits such an act, it's not impossible - after all, I expect her to burn the slaver elite - alongside their innocent servants - cowering behind the Black Walls of Volantis as a more noble repeat of Harrenhal. 

Overall, I think if she gets killed (which is pretty likely), her death will be much more morally ambiguous than in the show.

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SeanF]

11 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Obviously, I am just saying that many people (who were against Dany) might praise him for his 'heroic deed'.

I am 100% sure that Dany won't burn down an entire city just to make people fear her as in the show, though. That's completely out of character from her, no matter what character development she goes through. In the show, she was consistently more violent from the start of season 2, with Dany even forcing (!) poor Hizdahr to marry him.

A 'reverse scenario' of Stoney Sept where Aegon is hidden by the citizens of KL and Dany torches part of the city down to get him, it results in the wildfire caches igniting and Dany gets blamed (understandably) is much more viable. Although it' s difficult to see how would Dany even get to the point where she commits such an act, it's not impossible - after all, I expect her to burn the slaver elite - alongside their innocent servants - cowering behind the Black Walls of Volantis as a more noble repeat of Harrenhal. 

Overall, I think if she gets killed (which is pretty likely), her death will be much more morally ambiguous than in the show.

 

I could easily see Yunkai being razed to the ground before she heads West, on the basis that it would be far too dangerous to leave that city in a position to menace Meereen again.

That doesn't necessarily mean slaughtering all the inhabitants, just completely destroying it as a base. 

[csuszka1948]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I could easily see Yunkai being razed to the ground before she heads West, on the basis that it would be far too dangerous to leave that city in a position to menace Meereen again.

That doesn't necessarily mean slaughtering all the inhabitants, just completely destroying it as a base. 

 

I am not sure if Dany will even come back to Meereen, and I am pretty certain she won't head to Yunkai personally.

I think she will leave the Shavepate - who is merciless, but seems to be effective - in charge of Meereen, who can take Yunkai and Astapor for himself.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I never liked the idea of Dany accidentally setting off the wildfire because I don’t think something that serious should be a whoopsie. But one way I could see it working if it’s something like when Maegor burned the Sept of Remembrance. If people in KL were rioting against Dany (say the Sparrows, assuming they’re still around) and she decided to “teach them a lesson” after losing her patience, then I think accidentally setting off the wildfire could work. It’s one thing for her to burn people at war. It’s quite another if it’s an act of tyranny. And it’s a twist of what happened during the Dance—Rhaenyra could have flown Syrax to the Dragonpit and roasted the rioters during the ambush, but didn’t.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I never liked the idea of Dany accidentally setting off the wildfire because I don’t think something that serious should be a whoopsie. But one way I could see it working if it’s something like when Maegor burned the Sept of Remembrance. If people in KL were rioting against Dany (say the Sparrows, assuming they’re still around) and she decided to “teach them a lesson” after losing her patience, then I think accidentally setting off the wildfire could work. It’s one thing for her to burn people at war. It’s quite another if it’s an act of tyranny. And it’s a twist of what happened during the Dance—Rhaenyra could have flown Syrax to the Dragonpit and roasted the rioters during the ambush, but didn’t.

It would make an interesting plot if it happened though, as well as a test for how immune Daenerys is to fire (I know she really isn't in the books but in the show she doesn't get hurt by fire, not even the fumes). Plus it isn't as if Benioff and Weiss can't inject black comedy like that (Tyrion getting conked on the head with an axe during the Battle of the Green Fork).

"So our queen held back and got blown up... now what?"

Edited April 28, 2023 by Angel Eyes

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I never liked the idea of Dany accidentally setting off the wildfire because I don’t think something that serious should be a whoopsie. But one way I could see it working if it’s something like when Maegor burned the Sept of Remembrance. If people in KL were rioting against Dany (say the Sparrows, assuming they’re still around) and she decided to “teach them a lesson” after losing her patience, then I think accidentally setting off the wildfire could work. It’s one thing for her to burn people at war. It’s quite another if it’s an act of tyranny. And it’s a twist of what happened during the Dance—Rhaenyra could have flown Syrax to the Dragonpit and roasted the rioters during the ambush, but didn’t.

Using Drogon for riot control would be OTT, in my view, especially as she has Unsullied and Dothraki to break heads.

My preference would be for Dany to have a really bitter fight to take the city, with her enemies using the civilian population as human shields.  She’s in danger of losing the fight, and has to choose between admitting defeat, and unleashing fire on defenders and civilians alike.

That keeps it as a deliberate decision on her part, but also provides a military justification for it.

Edited April 29, 2023 by SeanF

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

It would make an interesting plot if it happened though, as well as a test for how immune Daenerys is to fire (I know she really isn't in the books but in the show she doesn't get hurt by fire, not even the fumes). Plus it isn't as if Benioff and Weiss can't inject black comedy like that (Tyrion getting conked on the head with an axe during the Battle of the Green Fork).

"So our queen held back and got blown up... now what?"

It would have been in keeping with her character, for Cersei to feign a surrender, and then set off wildfire as Dany and her soldiers rode into the city to accept it.

[Angel Eyes]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

It would have been in keeping with her character, for Cersei to feign a surrender, and then set off wildfire as Dany and her soldiers rode into the city to accept it.

That's true. Instead we have Cersei staring out of windows, drinking wine, staring out of windows drinking wine, gets rocks dropped on head, which is surprising considering how she fared in Season 7.

[The Bard of Banefort]

GRRM must have known about the changes to Sansa’s storyline before S5 aired though, right? Because if he didn’t, then it’s one hell of a coincidence that he released that Sansa sample chapter on his website like a week before the season premiered.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

GRRM must have known about the changes to Sansa’s storyline before S5 aired though, right? Because if he didn’t, then it’s one hell of a coincidence that he released that Sansa sample chapter on his website like a week before the season premiered.

I remember an article where Benioff and Weiss said they had Sansa's marriage to Ramsay planned out 3 years in advance, similar to Arya killing the Night King.

[The Bard of Banefort]

11 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I remember an article where Benioff and Weiss said they had Sansa's marriage to Ramsay planned out 3 years in advance, similar to Arya killing the Night King.

Yes, but I don’t know if this was something they kept to themselves or not. And according to FCKAD, they settled on Arya killing NK at some point during S7. Originally they considered having Brienne or the Hound do it lol.

As lame as it was for Arya to desert her family after killing NK, can you imagine how much lamer it would have been if the Hound had killed NK then died in Cleganebowl? Hahaha

Edited April 30, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort