Why is Cersei hated so much when neither version is even in top 25 most evil characters of the whole Ice and Fire franchise (which includes the books, TV show and games)?

[Craving Peaches]

I object to TV Tropes' opinion being presented as objective fact in this thread.

[boltons are sick]

11 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I really don't know how we (where by "we" I mean pretty much everyone in this thread apart from you and apparently Springwatch) can make it any clearer that we are not interested in the wikis' take nor do we care, at all. TVTropes is not an authority on the books. It is not an authority on morality. It is not an authority on our subjective opinion as to who we dislike.

 So, you think that just being intelligent, knowing  how to rule a country and acquiring power for your own sake and being superficially charismatic and being able to inspire loyalty in your own followers, but at the same time being entirely self-centered and not caring at all about your own followers, and not having any genuine care for anyone but yourself should count as redeeming qualities and should make you less evil.

 Because that's exactly what many argue about Tywin and how he is a better person than Cersei even though it's made abundandly clear he doesn't actually care about any of the smallfolk he ir ruling and he just wants more power for himself, but apparently just being intelligent (which is debatable) makes him a morally better person. So my question is, without referencing anything this time, how being intelligent but entirely self-centered and lusting only for power for yourself and being willing to commit any number of atrocities to obtain that power, and not caring about your own people to the point where you are willing to have one of them gang-raped for stepping out of line, makes Tywin a morally better person than Cersei who is mostly acting to protect herself and her children from Maggy's prophecy while Tywin doesn't have the excuses that he commits crimes to save the lives of his family as well as his own?

Edited April 6, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Craving Peaches]

18 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Being a good and capable governor doesn't count as a redeeming quality

And yet Cersei feeling sorry for herself when she tortures the Blue Bard does? Cersei being less horrible than usual also counts in your books so why should being a capable governor not count given that it benefits multiple people, as opposed to Cersei 'feeling remorse' for torture which benefits no one since she just carries on torturing the poor man?

[boltons are sick]

Also, these points are not from TV Tropes. They come from an entirely separate community.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, boltons are sick said:

So, you think that just being intelligent, knowing  how to rule a country and acquiring power for your own sake and being superficially charismatic and being able to inspire loyalty in your own followers, but at the same time being entirely self-centered and not caring at all about your own followers, and not having any genuine care for anyone but yourself should count as redeeming qualities and should make you less evil.

 

Now you’re just putting words in @Alester Florent’s mouth so I suppose you’re just desperate at this point to prove that your opinion is “the correct one” (!) and most everyone else’s is wrong. Wow. 
Why would anyone choose to die on the “Cersei is not that bad” hill is beyond me, but have at it. Just don’t twist what others are saying please.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, boltons are sick said:

Also, these points are not from TV Tropes. They come from an entirely separate community.

What community?

[boltons are sick]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

And yet Cersei feeling sorry for herself when she tortures the Blue Bard does? Cersei being less horrible than usual also counts in your books so why should being a capable governor not count given that it benefits multiple people, as opposed to Cersei 'feeling remorse' for torture which benefits no one since she just carries on torturing the poor man?

She literally says she feels sorry FOR THE BLUE BARD. Even if she tries to shift blame, it still shows that she is uncomfortable about what she is doing and even considers for a moment to stop his torture which further shows that she feels remorse. 

 Feeling genuine remorse for something bad you did is considered a redeeming quality. Being a self-centered prick who knows how to exploit the system and the people to acquire more power for himself is not a redeeming quality. That's the big difference.

 

[boltons are sick]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

What community?

Villains wiki community and its associated wikis.

[boltons are sick]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Now you’re just putting words in @Alester Florent’s mouth so I suppose you’re just desperate at this point to prove that your opinion is “the correct one” (!) and most everyone else’s is wrong. Wow. 
Why would anyone choose to die on the “Cersei is not that bad” hill is beyond me, but have at it. Just don’t twist what others are saying please.

No, I am not. His argument for why Tywin is morally better tha Cersei (as well as the arguments of most of the people here) is literally "he can rule well". This is NOT a redeeming quality if the ruler makes it clear he despises the people he rules over and just wants to increase his own personal power.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, boltons are sick said:

Villains wiki community and its associated wikis.

These have exactly the same issues as TV Tropes. Made by individuals with subjective opinions just like the rest of us but try to present themselves as objective. Why should we take what they say as gospel when they are flawed?

[kissdbyfire]

Consider my head done in. 

[Alester Florent]

3 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

 So, you think that just being intelligent, knowing  how to rule a country and acquiring power for your own sake and being superficially charismatic and being able to inspire loyalty in your own followers, but at the same time being entirely self-centered and not caring at all about your own followers, and not having any genuine care for anyone but yourself should count as redeeming qualities and should make you less evil.

 Because that's exactly what many argue about Tywin...

No. And I never said that, nor did anyone else that I've seen.

I said that Tywin was marginally less unsympathetic than Cersei because, unlike Cersei, he is actually quite good at his job (his job being the one of "administering a kingdom" which if done well is value-positive).

That is not the same thing.

 

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

The thing is, if there is an evil meter, Cersei wouldn't even scale 9.5 if there was such thingsbecause that would mean she would be Near Pure Evil. And like I said, she is Inconsistently Heinous, and the definition of Inconsistently Heinous is a character who has done terrible things but they have so many redeeming and sympathetic qualities that they DON'T COME EVEN CLOSE TO QUALIFY AS PURE EVIL. She would scale at most 5 if we assume that Ramsay is 10.

I think you have missed my point.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

Littlefinger is singlehandedly responsible for instigating the War of the Five Kings

No he isn't.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

(and, no, I don't consider Cersei cheating on someone who rpes her as deliberately instigating a war)

I feel I should point out that she was cheating on him before any of the abuse started, but I really don't want to get into any debate that involves rape, and anyway, what's the point?

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

He sends assassin to kill the young Bran,

This is a minority theory. The generally-accepted explanation, I believe, is the one we're given in the book, which is that Joffrey ordered the attempt.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

He gives the prostitute Ross to be tortured to death by Joffrey when he discovers she is a traitor who spies for Varys

No he doesn't. There is no character "Ross" (or Ros) in the books.

 

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

 in season 7,

You've given yourself away there.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

 Walder Frey literally kills 3500 people at once while they are under his roof, which includes Robb's pregnant wife and reveals his treacherous nature and that he doesn't respect one of the most sacred laws in Westeros.

No.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

He also throws his wife away and allows Catelyn to kill her, stating that he would find another

Nope.

 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, boltons are sick said:

His argument for why Tywin is morally better tha Cersei (as well as the arguments of most of the people here) is literally "he can rule well". This is NOT a redeeming quality if the ruler makes it clear he despises the people he rules over and just wants to increase his own personal power.

I think what Mr. Florent is saying is that Tywin's saving grace is that he can rule well whereas Cersei can't even do that so she brings literally nothing positive to the people of Westeros at all.

[Cas Stark]

A good ruler is a good ruler, it doesn't matter whether the reason is philosophical or personal.  A good ruler will make the the lives of his or her subjects better.  A bad ruler does the opposite, and while intent matters to some extent, having good intentions does not absolve a bad ruler from making his or her people's lives worse.  See:  Daenerys Targaryen. 

If we are going to compare Tywin and Cersea head to head, then given they are both ruling Westeros and House Lannister at various times, their ability as effective rulers is part of an overall evaluation.  Being a good ruler doesn't excuse being a bad person.  But being both a bad person AND a bad ruler who makes your subjects lives objectively worse is worse.

[boltons are sick]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

These have exactly the same issues as TV Tropes. Made by individuals with subjective opinions just like the rest of us but try to present themselves as objective. Why should we take what they say as gospel when they are flawed?

These communities use a set of standards when judging those things. Most fans outside of these communities judge characters purely by how they feel about them emotionally.

 I am not saying they are always right, but I agree with most of their opinions.

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

She literally says she feels sorry FOR THE BLUE BARD. Even if she tries to shift blame, it still shows that she is uncomfortable about what she is doing and even considers for a moment to stop his torture which further shows that she feels remorse. 

But she does not. So how does this help anyone? Tywin being a good ruler actually helps people.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, boltons are sick said:

These communities use a set of standards when judging those things.

So does everyone else...

Just now, boltons are sick said:

Most fans outside of these communities judge characters purely by how they feel about them emotionally.

Proof? Because everyone here has been backing up what they say with evidence from the books, hardly an emotion based argument.

1 minute ago, boltons are sick said:

 I am not saying they are always right, but I agree with most of their opinions.

But why should we agree with them before anything else?

[boltons are sick]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But she does not. So how does this help anyone? Tywin being a good ruler actually helps people.

Like I said, Tywin wanting to increase his own power is not redeeming.

 Also, Tywin has caused a lot more suffering than Cersei. He pillaged the Riverlands with tens of thousands of casualties, exterminated two noble Houses, orchestrated the Red Wedding and pillaged all of Kings' Landing.

 In comparison, Cersei just killed and tortured a few people and she may not be as good as her father at ruling, but her governing doesn't really affect the lives of the people beneet her because she doesn't really make any laws which dratically deteriorate the lifestyle of the people and is not really responsible for their suffering because most of the suffering is actually caused by Tywin (shocking) pillaging the Riverlands which she had no control over what he did. Also, the people of King's Landing absolutely despise Tywin for him pillaging the capital, so its not like his governing is very beneficial to them.

Edited April 6, 2023 by boltons are sick

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

These communities use a set of standards when judging those things. M

Which is ridiculous b/c, again, this isn’t maths. 
Another thing is, you seem to be mixing the books and show a lot. A whole lot. Yes, show!Cersei is marginally less horrible than her book counterpart but that is not a valid argument here. If you want to discuss show!Cersei you should do that n the show forum. 

[Alester Florent]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But she does not. So how does this help anyone? Tywin being a good ruler actually helps people.

Honestly the idea that feeling a bit bad about ordering someone to be tortured, but not bad enough not to order the torture anyway - and not even in a Jack Bauer "this person has time-critical information necessary to save thousands of lives and this is the only way to get it" way (whatever you think of that!) but rather an innocent person you're having tortured so that they will falsely incriminate a bunch of other innocent people so that you can in turn falsely incriminate another innocent person - is somehow a redeeming feature is, pardon my French, fucking mental.

That it's been presented as an argument more than once in this thread beggars belief.