Why is Cersei hated so much when neither version is even in top 25 most evil characters of the whole Ice and Fire franchise (which includes the books, TV show and games)?

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I see you’ve used the plural, so give me 2 redeeming qualities Cersei has. 

1. She loves her children.
2. That talk she had with Sansa after her flowering - was kind and had good effects. It took away Sansa's distress and shame, and prepared her to face the future.

It's pleasant to assume that love is a pure and holy thing, reserved solely for good people who think like us (probably young and beautiful too). It's not true though. Bad people can love, and it's the badness that causes all the problems, not the love. *

I have some doubts that Cersei got through a whole conversation with Sansa without screwing up somewhere. But on the whole, it was good.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Springwatch
* here endeth the sermonising, promise

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

George Martin would list Cersei among the gray characters. Most of the vocal Cersei haters are Stark fans. Jaime is the worst of the three Lannisters.  

So you have another “argument” other than “Starks are so evul they’re the sole cause of every single bad thing that’s ever happened”, and that’s you’re indirect Stark hate where you criticise the opinions of readers you think are Stark fans and push the opposing opinion because, after all, “Starks are so evul they’re the sole cause of every single bad thing that’s ever happened”. 
 

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

1. She loves her children.
2. That talk she had with Sansa after her flowering - was kind and had good effects. It took away Sansa's distress and shame, and prepared her to face the future.

It's pleasant to assume that love is a pure and holy thing, reserved solely for good people who think like us (probably young and beautiful too). It's not true though. Bad people can love, and it's the badness that causes all the problems, not the love.

I have some doubts that Cersei got through a whole conversation with Sansa without screwing up somewhere. But on the whole, it was good.

I don’t believe she loves her children, as I’ve already said. She sort of cares for Joffrey but ignores Myrcella bc she’s a girl and girls don’t matter - Cersei’s internalised misogyny is another trait that has to be added to her long list of undesirable traits, and she’s downright nasty to Tommen. So the only kid of hers she sort of cares for is the nasty psycho arsehole. 
I haven’t read the passage where she has that convo w/ Sansa in many years, so I’ll get back to you on that once I’ve reread it. 

[boltons are sick]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

So you have another “argument” other than “Starks are so evul they’re the sole cause of every single bad thing that’s ever happened”, and that’s you’re indirect Stark hate where you criticise the opinions of readers you think are Stark fans and push the opposing opinion because, after all, “Starks are so evul they’re the sole cause of every single bad thing that’s ever happened”. 
 

I don't think the Starks are evil, but they are not the "heroes" of the story either, they are just another random noble family who are part of the political intrigue and Robb is explicitely mentioned to have pillaged the Westerlands which would give him a fairly decent body count of innocent peasants. They just happen to be our introductory POV characters to the world of ASOIAF and that's why they are perceived as the heroes of the story.

I do agree that a lot of the hate for Cersei comes because she is opposed to the Stark family. If she wasn't opposed to fan favorite characters, fans still wouldn't think that she is a good person, but there would be a lot more understanding for her and her desire to protect her family from being unjustly executed by Robert over some sexist laws which don't allow the woman to cheat on her rapist husband.

 I suspect the reason why Tyrion is so popular despite the crimes he commits is that he is not opposed to any fan favorite characters and most of his crimes are commited against unnamed smallfolk that the fans don't care about, but if he was directly opposed to the Stark family and there was genuine hatred between them ,people would have much worse opinions about Tyrion because most fans don't judge characters by morality, but by whether they find them likeable or not and part of being likeable is not opposing fan favorite characters.

Edited April 5, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Springwatch]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Killing children because of your sense of entitled vanity is not common because Cersei is one of the only characters we have seen do it. They were not only children, they were newborn babies. That is my argument.

I don't think Cersei murdered Melara, and I can imagine Tywin killing the bastards, to avenge the insult to his family. But if he didn't -

I think what it is is that Cersei only kills the bastards that Robert and his court might see, so they won't be reminded that every Baratheon-Lannister child is black-haired.

Being willing to do anything to protect your children is kind of a repeated theme of the books, it keeps coming up. Certainly Jaime's crime against Bran is an essential comparison.

I'm not here to 'lionise' Cersei, but I don't think evil-stupid does her justice - I think she's on an arc, starting from being a really mean girl, then doing not very much as a young adult (apart from sex crimes with Jaime), and then, when she sees her children are vulnerable, she's really ready for murder and a descent into evil. Her longing for power just accelerates the descent.

[Springwatch]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t believe she loves her children, as I’ve already said.

I do. Love as a feeling, a rush of emotion - Cersei feels that, but because she's kind of broken, love doesn't stop her being cruel and neglectful. Younger Cersei was probably a much better mother. Tommen loves her, constantly asked for her at the time when she was imprisoned. Myrcella turned out very well, and Cersei ordered a huge part of the the fleet to protect her on the way to Dorne. Cersei was horrified that Myrcella was injured as well. Can't tell what Joffrey thought of Cersei, as he's a rebellious teenager, and a bit mad-evil himself.

[Alester Florent]

When the Stark haters are chiming in to back you up, you know your take is garbage.

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

I don't think the Starks are evil, but they are not the "heroes" of the story either, they are just another random noble family who are part of the political intrigue and Robb is explicitely mentioned to have pillaged the Westerlands which would give him a fairly decent body count of innocent peasants. They just happen to be our introductory POV characters to the world of ASOIAF and that's why they are perceived as the heroes of the story.

And? My reply wasn’t addressed to you, but to someone else who doesn’t do anything other than come up w/ ridiculous and false arguments just b/c they can’t get over their hatred of anything Stark. 
There are no hero houses/families, as far as I can tell, and each house will have its share of good and bad. 
The heroes will be those individuals who, despite their flaws, will come together and fight for the greater good. IMO. 

16 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

I do agree that a lot of the hate for Cersei comes because she is opposed to the Stark family. If she wasn't opposed to fan favorite characters, fans still wouldn't think that she is a good person, but there would be a lot more understanding for her and her desire to protect her family from being unjustly executed by Robert over some sexist laws which don't allow the woman to cheat on her rapist husband.

Cersei is a villain in her own right. And trying to deny that she is a villain is mind-boggling. IMO.

16 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

 I suspect the reason why Tyrion is so popular despite the crimes he commits is that he is not opposed to any fan favorite characters and most of his crimes are commited against unnamed smallfolk that the fans don't care about, but if he was directly opposed to the Stark family and there was genuine hatred between them ,people would have much worse opinions about Tyrion because most fans don't judge characters by morality, but by whether they find them likeable or not and part of being likeable is not opposing fan favorite characters.

Tyrion is also a villain, so as far as I’m concerned they could choke each other to death simultaneously. He’s not at all likable. IMO. 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

She feels sorry for the Blue Bard while she is torturing him (remorse qualifies as a redeeming quality), cares about her children and her mother, acts somewhat affable to Sansa on a few occasions and teaches her about "moon blood" and how to rule as a future Queen and gives a choice to Ned to return to Winterfell and live out the rest of his life, specifically stating that she is doing it because he also provided her with a choice to leave the city with her family (yes, if she is giving Ned the choice to walk out with his life and specifically states that she is doing it because Ned gave her a choice to leave the city before he warned Robert, it counts as a redeeming quality).

So her redeeming qualities are she’s not as evil as Gregor. Ohh the logic of trolls. 

[Craving Peaches]

23 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I think what it is is that Cersei only kills the bastards that Robert and his court might see, so they won't be reminded that every Baratheon-Lannister child is black-haired.

The twins were born to a servant at Casterly Rock though, the heart of Lannister territory. There is no way they could be used against Cersei there. Absolutely no need to kill them - they could have been hidden away. She did it for pride.

Quote

Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home.

Also, she has Barra killed and tried to kill Gendry after Robert was already dead and she was queen regent.

[Craving Peaches]

29 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

I do agree that a lot of the hate for Cersei comes because she is opposed to the Stark family.

People who don't give a toss about the Starks find Cersei despicable...

30 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

her desire to protect her family from being unjustly executed by Robert over some sexist laws

What, the 'sexist law' that you can't pass someone's children off as another's? Fraud is still a crime today and it has nothing to do with sexism. And it does not give Cersei a licence to kill innocent babies. 

32 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

 I suspect the reason why Tyrion is so popular

Tyrion is not popular...

[kissdbyfire]

There are many grey and complex characters in this story, many of them have done horrible things but also are self-aware and don’t try to blame others for their crimes and shortcomings. Cersei isn’t one of them. 

[Springwatch]

Another redeeming thing! Cersei gave up all of her red cloak defenders so Tyrion could use them to free Jaime. Even though she anxious enough about her security to go scrabbling around for Kettleblacks afterwards. And she gave up the Hound her bodyguard to protect Joffrey.

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The twins were born to a servant at Casterly Rock though, the heart of Lannister territory. There is no way they could be used against Cersei there. Absolutely no need to kill them - they could have been hidden away. She did it for pride.

Cersei doesn't rule at Casterly Rock. I think Tywin/Lannister family might have done that one.

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, she has Barra killed and tried to kill Gendry after Robert was already dead and she was queen regent.

Fair enough, leave Robert out of it. But the twincest issue blew up in her face at that time, so principle still applies.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

She feels sorry for the Blue Bard while she is torturing him (remorse qualifies as a redeeming quality)

Oh wowee, guess I can go flay someone and as long as I feel slightly bad about it I'll be a changed woman! 

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

acts somewhat affable to Sansa on a few occasions

Fourth item on the list and you are already scraping the bottom of the barrel. Cersei is still acting below how a normal person would treat Sansa, given she is failing to meet even the basic standard it hardly counts as a redeeming quality.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

Cersei doesn't rule at Casterly Rock.

But she must have some authority there given she was able to have the mother sold into slavery and have the babies killed. So she easily could have just kept them out of sight.

[boltons are sick]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What, the 'sexist law' that you can't pass someone's children off as another's? Fraud is still a crime today and it has nothing to do with sexism. And it does not give Cersei a licence to kill innocent babies. 

 No matter what you or anyone else likes to pretend, the laws of the Seven Kingdoms state that if the Queen cheats on the King even WITHOUT trying to pretend that her children belong to the King, she would still be executed while the same wouldn't happen to the King. This is shown in the fourth book where Cersei herself tries to get Margaery executed over cheating on Tommen without including charges that Margaery has pretended that her children belong to Tommen. This IS sexist and you can't convince me otherwise.

Also, the reason why Cersei even needs to pretend that her children belong to Robert in the first place is because if she admits that they are not his and they shouldn't inherit the throne, she and the children would still get executed because she would still be "guilty" of cheating on the King which is considered High Treason. This IS sexist. The only way in which Cersei can protect her children and herself from this is if she pretends that the children actually belong to Robert and that's why I don't blame her for being forced to do this to protect herself from being executed over cheating on the King, but I blame the sexist society which has created the law that if the Queen cheats on the King, she would be executed even if she DOESN'T try to pretend that her children belong to the King.

Edited April 5, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Springwatch]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But she must have some authority there given she was able to have the mother sold into slavery and have the babies killed. So she easily could have just kept them out of sight.

No. Sweet Cersei - she doesn't hide her feelings much. When the family knew, they would do all that for her. Especially Tywin, who's so mad with family pride that he attributed the war of the 5 kings to the insult of Tyrion's kidnap.

[boltons are sick]

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But she must have some authority there given she was able to have the mother sold into slavery and have the babies killed. So she easily could have just kept them out of sight.

This whole info about her doing this comes from Littlefinger who at the time was trying to ensure that Ned Stark would have a really bad opinion of Cersei because he wanted to create tension and start the War of the Five Kings.

 This is the same man who told Sansa that when Tyrion got tired of a peasant girl, he simply gave her to the guards and ordered them to gang-rape her when Littlefinger was trying to turn Sansa against Tyron, so that she wouldn't feel bad about abandoning him, even though we know who is actually responsible for that.

 I am not saying it's not impossible she really did do it, but I would need extra proof for any information coming from Littlefinger, especially when twisting the truth would be beneficial to his goals, before I can safely say it really did happen.

Edited April 5, 2023 by boltons are sick

[frenin]

Cersei>Jaime

Idc, it is the truth.

[Nevets]

For me it was AFFC that brought home how horrible she is.  She persecutes Margaery, tortures the Blue Bard and others, sends her maid and others to the tender mercies of Qyburn, is abusive towards Tommen, and that's just off the top of my head.

And her earlier enabling of Joffrey, and the death of Barra and try for Gendry do not reflect well.  And she doesn't have anything good to redeem herself with.   She's an utterly incompetent ruler for example.

Most of the people listed on the tropes listing I am not familiar with or are minor.  And characters like Gregor, Ramsay, Euron, and the like are worse than Cersei, it's true, but they're so God awful they would make the characters on Criminal Minds cringe in horror.  And while Joffrey, Lord Walder, and Baelish might be worse than her, that's a very low bar to clear.

She's hated both because she's a major character and a really bad person.  She's at the bottom of the POV list, alongside Victarion.