Why is Cersei hated so much when neither version is even in top 25 most evil characters of the whole Ice and Fire franchise (which includes the books, TV show and games)?

[boltons are sick]

For those of you who don't know, the Complete Monster (also known as Pure Evil) is a trope created by TV Tropes, so they can categorize villainous characters who are exceptionally heinous by the standards of the story, have no redeeming qualities and are completely unsympathetic.

Neither of the two versions of Cersei is considered a Complete Monster due to her many redeeming qualities, excuses for her actions and being played heavily for sympathy by the story.

Most of her actions are just motivated by a desire to keep her family safe and she is not morally worse than characters like Jaime or Tyrion who are liked by the fandom.

You can read more about the criteria of what constitutes a Complete Monster here

Below are the entries from TV Tropes of all 25 characters from the franchise (this includes the TV show and video games) who have been approved as Complete Monsters:

Book Continuity

Main series 

• King Joffrey I Baratheon of King's Landing, despite his young age, stands out as one of the vilest characters in the series. While always shown to have a darker side, Joffrey finally crosses the line when he has Lord Eddard "Ned" Stark executed, ensuring that the war with the Northerners would never reach a peaceful conclusion. Joffrey not only does this in front of Ned's daughter, Sansa, Joffrey's own fiancée, he then forces her to look at the decapitated heads of her father and household afterwards. This is followed by a long period of Domestic Abuse during which Joffrey has her regularly beaten by his Kingsguard and threatens to rape her even after she marries his uncle, Tyrion Lannister. As king, Joffrey revels in his power over life and death, and his reign is filled with all manner of pointless cruelties, his crimes including: having a minstrel whose song offended him choose between losing his fingers or his tongue; attempting to have a drunken knight drowned in a cask of wine; firing on starving peasants with his crossbow; ordering his bodyguard to cut through a crowd of peasants to get at one of them who threw manure at him; nailing antlers to the heads of sympathizers to his uncle and rival for the Iron Throne, Stannis, and firing them from trebuchets as entertainment during the Battle of the Blackwater; and attempting to convince his grandfather to execute everyone who fought against him, regardless of whether or not they surrendered. A budding psychopath who believes being the king gives him the right to do whatever he likes, Joffrey's sadism is so great that he is noted to be well on his way to surpassing his predecessor as the next Mad King of the Seven Kingdoms.

• Ser Gregor Clegane, aka "the Mountain that Rides", is a sadist who serves House Lannister and one of the most feared men in Westeros, rumored to have murdered his sister, father, and two wives. When he was 12, he burned half of his brother Sandor's face when the latter played with one of his toys. At 17, he dashed the infant Prince Aegon's head against a wall, then raped and murdered the latter's mother, Princess Elia. While at a tournament, Gregor murders one of his opponents, then tries to kill another and Sandor after losing a joust. Following the tournament, he and his men gang-rape an innkeeper's daughter. Unleashed on the Riverlands, Gregor and his men rape and murder anyone who falls into their hands. At one point, for ten days, Gregor picks one person each day from a group of villagers to torture for information. After one villager volunteers to save her daughter, Gregor has the daughter tortured the next day to make sure the mother didn't leave anything out. He tortures Vargo Hoat, including cutting strips of flesh from Hoat and feeding them to him, before letting Hoat die. During a duel with Oberyn Martell, Princess Elia's brother, who asserts his responsibility for the murder of his sister and her children to him, Gregor's only concern is that Oberyn got the order of events wrong, correcting him before brutally crushing Oberyn's skull.

• Ramsay Snow, the Bastard of Bolton, stands out as one of the most savage and depraved men in Westeros. Suspected of murdering his good-hearted, trueborn brother, Ramsay first comes to prominence after he forces Lady Hornwood to marry him to gain her lands. Having already starved her to death, Ramsay avoids death at the hands of Winterfell soldiers by impersonating his servant, Reek, then sending his "friend" to die in his place. When Theon Greyjoy takes over Winterfell, the imprisoned Ramsay allies himself with Greyjoy and acts as a corruptive influence, ultimately being the one to convince Theon to cross the line by murdering two little boys to pass them off as Bran and Rickon Stark. Gathering his own forces, Ramsay slaughters Ser Rodrik's Northerner soldiers, then betrays and captures Theon before ordering his men to raze Winterfell and slaughter everyone inside. One of Ramsay's favorite past-times is flaying people alive and he's done this many times, from the people he tortures, to the girls he hunts for fun that give him bad sport, to the surrendering Ironborn forces of Moat Cailin after Ramsay promised them mercy. Ramsay is also responsible for physically and mentally torturing Theon Greyjoy to condition him into a pathetic, insane wretch who believes himself the new Reek. Taking an Arya Stark impersonator as his wife to maintain Bolton control of the North, Ramsay abuses her constantly, despite her usefulness, even forcing Theon to participate in her wedding night bedding. A half-feral beast of a man, Ramsay lives to satisfy his sadistic urges and is so pointlessly and moronically cruel that even his own sociopathic father has to hold himself back from killing him.

• Craster is a wicked, hedonistic Wildling and uneasy ally of the Night's Watch. Keeping a harem of abused women, Craster rapes them in his isolated keep beyond the Wall, even assaulting any female children born to his "wives" from a prepubescent age. Any male children born are left as sacrifices to the Others, Craster desiring nothing more than a life to enjoy casually raping the women in his keep free of consequence.

• Rorge is a Serial Rapist and Serial Killer—especially of children—and the worst of the Brave Companions, his cruelty even exceeding their leader, Vargo Hoat. Freed along with his companion Biter, Rorge signs on with the "Bloody Mummers" after Arya Stark saves him from certain death, to which he responds by threatening to sodomize her with her own wooden sword. After the Brave Companions capture Jaime and Brienne, Rorge attempts to rape Brienne and threatens to mutilate her face if she screams. After Hoat's death, Rorge leads a band of brigands on the raid on Saltpans, resulting in the massacre of nearly the entire town. Rorge personally kills 20 men and rapes a 12-year-old girl, mutilating her then giving the girl to his men to mutilate her further. Upon encountering Brienne again, Rorge expresses a desire to cut off her legs and have her watch him rape a 10-year-old girl—with the latter's own crossbow. Additional material indicates that he is also the reason why Biter is the way he is—finding an orphan boy, Rorge removed his tongue, filed his teeth, and made him fight dogs with only his new fangs.

• Euron Greyjoy, captain of the Silence, is the evilest of the Ironborn and perhaps the most wicked man to ever raise a sail. Having murdered his elder brother as a child, he later murdered the infant Robin while molesting his brothers Aeron and Urrigon. Scorning all taboos and gods alike, Euron was later exiled by his brother Balon and took to reaving and murdering all across the world. Killing and raping countless innocents, Euron has Balon murdered and returns to claim the Seastone Chair, killing all who object in sadistically inventive ways. Capturing his brother Aeron, Euron subjects him to nightmarish psychological torture while having the Shield Islands sacked and their nobles raped and murdered. Taking his pregnant mistress Falia Flowers, Euron removes her tongue to be lashed to the prow with Aeron and numerous other holy men and warlocks whom he has tortured, with the intent to use them as a sacrifice in an upcoming battle. Planning on nothing less than to rise as a new god from the graves and charnel pits, Euron plots the apocalypse to reshape himself into something new and terrible.

The World of Ice & Fire; Archmaester Gyldayn's Histories; Fire & Blood

• House Targaryen:

  • King Maegor I Targaryen, aka "Maegor the Cruel", usurped the throne from his nephew and promptly decapitated the one Archmaester who protested. As king, Maegor turned to brutal tactics to suppress the Faith of the Seven, even riding on his dragon Balerion to burn down a Sept with all worshippers inside, using archers to pick off stragglers. Maegor proceeded to commit massacre after massacre, even passing off the skulls of poor smallfolk in the wrong place at the wrong time as members of the Faith's warriors. Following the capture of Wat the Hewer, a leader of the Poor Fellows, Maegor had his limbs cut off. Worse still was Maegor's attitudes towards family: Maegor killed his own nephew in combat, and then had his second nephew captured and tortured to death. When one of his wives gave birth to a "stillborn monstrosity," Maegor had her, everyone at the birth, and her entire family executed. Obsessed with having an heir, Maegor forcibly married three women, including his own niece. After having the Red Keep constructed, Maegor also had the builders massacred to keep its secrets to himself.

  • Queen Tyanna of the Tower is the third wife of Maegor the Cruel. A former Pentoshi courtesan rumored to dabble in alchemy and sorcery, Tyanna served as Maegor's chief spy, plotting the deaths of thousands for Maegor. When Maegor's nephews rebelled, Tyanna personally tortured Prince Viserys for nine days before he expired, with many, many more innocents dying in agony at her hands. Tyanna would poison Maegor's other wives to ensure they birthed only stillborn monstrosities, including Queen Alys Harroway, who Tyanna herself tortured to death while dozens of Alys's suspected lovers died, along with Alys's entire House. Justly feared and despised during Maegor's reign, Tyanna was one of the few who could rival her husband for wickedness and sadism.

• Sers "Hard" Hugh Hammer and Ulf (the) White, aka "The Betrayers", are dragon tamers descending from Targaryen bastards recruited by Queen Rhaenrya I Targaryen. Defecting to her rival-brother King Aegon II's side, Hugh and Ulf attack Tumbleton, scorching the town with their dragons and killing thousands in the burning and many more drowning in the river as they try to flee. Having Tumbleton's gates opened to sack it, women—and girls as young as eight—are raped, babies are impaled on spears, and Ulf personally makes a point of raping three maidens per night, feeding those who fail to satisfy him to his dragon. While Ulf demands Highgarden for his services, Hugh plans to depose Aegon and take the throne himself with his dragon, nailing horseshoes to the head of one man who angrily knocks off Hugh's self-made crown.

• The Ironborn loved to Rape, Pillage, and Burn:

  • House Greyjoy: Dalton Greyjoy, one of the earlier Greyjoys, aka the "Red Kraken" and Lord-Reaper of Pyke during the Dance of the Dragons, began his reaving when he was only a boy. At the age of 12, Dalton began killing men and taking salt-wives for his own, with numerous successful raids behind him. During the Dance, Dalton indulged his bloodlust by raiding up and down the west coast, sacking cities and taking hundreds of women as salt-wives while quickly tiring of women and passing others to his brothers if he did not find them attractive enough. Attacking even noble houses and plotting to sack and conquer even pillars of Westeros such as Oldtown, Dalton was only stopped after one such salt-wife, known as Tess, opened his throat in revenge for her rape as he slept.

  • House Hoare: King Qhored I Hoare, aka "Qhored the Cruel", was a vicious Ironborn ruler who had thousands of women captured and raped. Brutally killing one subject's sons for his being late in paying him tribute, Qhored also ordered the sacking of Oldtown, his warring and raiding plaguing the continent for three-quarters of a century.

• Yi Ti/YiTish Mythology: The Bloodstone Emperor is the jealous second son of the semi-divine Opal Emperor. Murdering his own older sister, the Amethyst Empress, to take power over the paradisaical Great Empire of the Dawn, the Bloodstone Emperor begins worshipping a black stone and marked his rule with mass murder and enslavement, feasting on the flesh of man, conducting mass torture and practicing dark magic. So atrocious is the mass sin at the tyrant's hands that the benevolent Goddess, the Maiden-Made-of-Light and ancestor to the Bloodstone Emperor himself, leaves the world in peril to eradicate the latter's empire, electing to risk the death of all rather than have it suffer under his monstrous excesses.

Other Continuities

Game of Thrones & Histories & Lore

• King Joffrey I Baratheon graduates from a spoiled prince to a "vicious idiot" of a ruler following the death of his supposed father Robert. Having once tried to kill his fiancée Sansa Stark's younger sister and lowborn friend for standing up to him, Joffrey swiftly orders the execution of Eddard Stark, Lord of the North and father to Sansa, even knowing it will mean war. Throwing aside all pretense of charm, Joffrey also begins regularly tormenting his captive bride-to-be, forcing Sansa to gaze at the severed head of her father while having his Kingsguard beat her at his leisure. A whimsical sadist, Joffrey responds to a bard's taunting song by ordering him mutilated and when his rule drives starving peasants into accosting him, orders them all be put to death in a bloody riot. Lusting at the mere thought of violence, Joffrey forces one prostitute bought for him to beat another, later restraining and shooting the survivor to death for his own amusement. Not even family is safe from his insanity, with Joffrey threatening to kill his mother, ordering his uncle assassinated, and having all of Robert's bastard children—including babies—murdered to secure his false claim to the throne. A blossoming teenage psychopath even without the years of most of Westeros's worst behind him, Joffrey's short rule is marked by such cruelty he is said to have possibly grown to surpass the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen for sheer depravity.

• Petyr Baelish, aka "Littlefinger", is a manipulative, self-serving man who believes that "chaos is a ladder", and orchestrates a variety of Westeros's misfortunes to climb to the top. Owning and operating a brothel whose workers he abuses, mistreats, and even mutilates to suit his clients' desires, Baelish callously has any who cross him sent off to be butchered, notably handing off Ros to be tortured to death by Joffrey Baratheon. Out of both ambition and a petty desire to possess the hand of Catelyn Stark, Baelish kick-starts the War of the Five Kings by seducing Lysa Arryn into murdering her husband while Baelish stages an assassination attempt on Catelyn's crippled son, turns kingdoms against one another, and personally arranges the death of Catelyn's current husband Eddard "Ned" Stark and many of his men. Profiting off the massive, bloody war that costs thousands of lives across Westeros, Baelish murders Lysa and shifts his lustful attentions from Catelyn to her young daughter Sansa, psychologically abusing the girl before sending her off to be raped and tortured so as to later "save" her from her fate and convince her to team with him in wiping out her own family. His scheming leading to unfathomable death and devastation through the kingdoms and empowering monsters like Joffrey and Ramsay Bolton/Snow, Baelish is willing to doom countless lives—even those of his apparent loved ones—so long as it brought himself good fortune, proudly boastful that the climb to power for power's sake is the only thing that truly matters to him.

• Ser Gregor Clegane, "the Mountain that Rides" of House Clegane, is Westeros's most dreaded knight, in service to Lord Tywin Lannister. An ill-tempered sadist since childhood, Gregor once burned his brother Sandor's face for playing with his toy to the point of gruesome disfiguring. When Gregor later loses a jousting match in a tournament, he wrathfully decapitates his own horse before storming the crowd, trying to kill the man who beat him and any who stand in his way. Occupying Harrenhal fortress under Tywin, Gregor has his sadistic minion the Tickler torture prisoners to death for information and after losing Harrenhal, orders the hundreds of remaining captives be put to death. Recruited to fight for the crown in Tyrion's Trial by Combat, Gregor is found perfecting his sword skills by violently butchering more prisoners in one-sided "duels". Battling Prince Oberyn Martell, Oberyn tries to force Gregor to confess to having raped and murdered his sister Elia, as well as her children, something Gregor outright boasts of as he shoves his thumbs through the prince's eyes before squeezing his head until it explodes.

• Lord Walder Frey, head of House Frey, after a few episodes of pretension as nothing but a doddering old pervert, proves his true evil when he conceives of the Red Wedding. For the sake of getting back at Lord Robb Stark for not honoring his wedding vow, Frey has Robb, his pregnant wife, his mother, hundreds of his bannermen, and even Robb's direwolf Grey Wind massacred in one of the most devastating acts of treachery Westeros ever sees. When his wife is taken hostage, Walder throws her away and remarks "I'll find another." Spending the rest of his life rubbing his hands over the power he backstabbed his way into, Lord Walder violates every single value even the cutthroat world of Westeros upholds.

• Craster, a vicious Wildling and shaky Night's Watch ally, is given a self-righteous demeanor. Abusing the women of his isolated keep, Craster regularly rapes them, even keeping any girls born as a result to add to his dozens of victims, while leaving any infant boys born to be taken by the White Walkers. Incensed by the mere implication of debauchery, Craster declares himself a "godly man" and threatens to kill any of the Night's Watch brothers who dare question his way of life.

• Ramsay Bolton/Snow, the bastard son of Lord Roose Bolton and the most vicious member of House Bolton, is a sadist with a knack for torture and flaying others alive. After capturing Winterfell, Ramsay proceeded to play twisted games with the captive Theon Greyjoy, pretending to be an Ironborn agent who comes to save Theon—killing his own men to keep up the ruse—and culminating in Ramsay bringing Theon to the Dreadfort and subjecting him to prolonged, hideous torture, including flaying bits of him and castrating him. All that remains of Theon afterwards is a broken, obedient shell whom Ramsay dubs "Reek." In his spare time, Ramsay and his equally psychotic lover Myranda release girls into the woods to hunt them for sport, also using the girls to feed Ramsay's savage hounds. When Ramsay makes Theon negotiate a surrender with other Ironborn, Ramsay guarantees their safety, only to have them flayed alive and displayed as gruesome trophies. After marrying Sansa Stark, Ramsay rapes her on the wedding night and continues to sexually and physically abuse her throughout the rest of the marriage. Ramsay cements his rule over his hold by murdering Roose and having his hounds eat his infant brother and stepmother. When he finally engages the Northern armies, Ramsay is apathetic to the death of his own men and shoots the preteen Rickon Stark dead—moments before he reaches Jon Snow. With few matching his pointless savagery, Ramsay Snow exemplified every negative stereotype about bastards in Westeros.

• Karl Tanner is a former assassin and sworn brother of the Night's Watch. Taking over Craster's Keep in a mutiny, Karl has his Lord Commander Jeor Mormont killed to drink wine from his skull while allowing his men to rape and abuse Craster's daughter-wives as they see fit. Having the only male child left to the cold, when Bran Stark and his group arrive Karl plans to torment and kill them all, even trying to force himself on the teenage Meera while forcing her brother to watch.

• King Aerys II Targaryen, aka the Mad King, grew into a paranoid pyromaniac and one of the worst of his family's dynasty. Terrified of any threats to his power, Aerys begins murdering or torturing those who incense him, having one man's tongue torn out for making a joke. Becoming obsessed with the destructive wildfire, Aerys uses it to burn entire cities when he deems them to house traitors, even inviting a Northern lord to the capital before burning him alive when Aerys's son is accused of kidnapping the lord's daughter. His tyranny causing a massive rebellion, Aerys goes to war hoping to exterminate all Houses who oppose him, and eventually plans to burn all of King's Landing and his own half-a-million citizens within to kill his attacking enemies.

• Euron Greyjoy was banished from the Iron Islands after having burned the Lannisport fleet. Following the "Old Way" on the high seas, Euron took slaves by the thousands to trade or for sex, having any sailors who fought back tortured to death. At one point, Euron tore the tongues out of his own entire crew for interrupting his thoughts, despite them just having saved his life. Returning to murder his brother Balon and claim the Salt Throne, Euron joins Queen Cersei Lannister in a war to conquer Westeros, later having a defeated enemy fleet mutilated while planning to spread his pillaging worldwide.

• King Maegor I Targaryen, aka "Maegor the Cruel", is one of the most brutal rulers to ever sit on the Iron Throne. Usurping his own nephew and then killing him in battle, Maegor would go on to usher in a reign of callous tyranny. His many atrocities include executing anyone who expresses an opinion he doesn't like; burning down a Sept with many people inside; starting a campaign across the Riverlands, the Westerlands, and the Reach which claims the lives of thousands of innocent people for him to collect their skulls and pass off as members of the Faith Militant; forcibly marrying three women who had been widowed because of the wars he had waged; executing his second wife and every single member of her family when she gives birth to a deformed and stillborn baby; slaughtering all the builders who had constructed the Red Keep to keep its secret passages for himself and, allegedly, having a hidden dungeon to brutally torture prisoners. Maegor's actions ravage the realm so badly, that his cruelty would be remembered even hundreds of years after his death.

Video Games

• 2012 game: Valarr Hill, bastard brother to Alester Sarwyck of Riverspring, is the main villain of the game. A member of Queen Cersei's guard hunting for the pregnant mother of one of King Robert's bastards named Jeyne, Valarr frames his and Alester's younger brother for the death of their father and later tries to have him assassinated. Revealed as the man who killed hero Mors's family on Lord Tywin's orders, Valarr also raped Mors's daughter, a fact he taunts him about when they meet in trial by combat. Valarr intends to force his own half-sister into marriage and rape her, before cheating in the duel by using dark magic to kill Mors and having all the witnesses massacred before murdering his and Alester's sister; hunting down Jeyne, killing her; and having the lord defending her and his men massacred. Valarr breaks every taboo Westeros has, from kinslaying, rape, violating guest right and more, caring for nothing but his own ascent to further heights.

• Telltale Games Series: Ramsay Snow is the representative in the North for the as-yet-unseen Roose Bolton, orchestrating the conflict between the Forresters and Whitehills for profit and enjoyment. Ramsay is introduced while flaying a man alive for recreation, lamenting that the result is "not [his] best work". After entering the Forresters' estate by force, he tries to take Talia hostage with clear lascivious intent before pragmatically settling on her brother instead, and murders the teenage Ethan on a whim. He later returns to "break" Rodrik by forcing him to witness his torture (and eventual murder) of Rodrik's friend Arthur. He later pits the Forresters and Whitehills against each other in a war of annihilation, passing up potential profit for the sake of a bloody spectacle. A sadist who lives only to relish the suffering he inflicts on others, Ramsay is feared and loathed throughout the North.

In other words, the most evil characters from the books are Joffrey, Gregor, Ramsay, Rorge, Craster, Euron, Maegor, Tyanna, Dalton Greyjoy, Qhored Hoare, the two Betrayers (Hugh and Ulf) and the Bloodstone Emperor.

The most evil from the TV series and the Histories & Lore animated videos (which are part of the TV show canon) are Joffrey, Gregor, Ramsay, Walder, Craster, Euron. Karl Tanner, Aerys, Littlefinger and Maegor.

The most evil from video games are Valarr Hill and Ramsay (Telltale version).

As you can see, no version is of Cersei is listed among the most evil characters of the franchise because she simply doesn't meet the criteria. This means that her evil is really exaggerated by the whole fandom and she gets far more hatred than she deserves for some reason even though she has many redeeming qualities and excuses for her actions. So, why is she so hated by the fandom even though she was intended to be sympathetic?

[Alester Florent]

The Complete Monster trope page is not a definitive list of the most evil characters. In the list above, you've doubled up a lot of characters, too.

People dislike Cersei because she is petty, cruel, spiteful, paranoid, wholly self-interested, convinced of her own brilliance but not actually very bright. Her influence helped create Joffrey, and she enabled the worst in him thereafter. Once Joffrey and Tywin are gone, she gets even worse, and singlehandedly drives the influence of the crown and the crown's most important alliance into the ground, while rounding up people on a whim and sending them to be experimented on in the Black Cells.

Her redeeming features in the show (or rather "feature", i.e. she loved her children) are much less identifiable in the book version. She's the least sympathetic of her family by a country mile, and that's saying something considering the family includes Tywin: Tywin at least has the argument that his cruelty and callousness were in the service of actually achieving something worthwhile. Cersei destroys everything she touches.

The hate she gets is entirely deserved, and is probably proportional to her prominence in the story relative to the characters listed above, none of whom are PoVs and some of whom are quite minor (e.g. Rorge, Craster).

[boltons are sick]

26 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The Complete Monster trope page is not a definitive list of the most evil characters. In the list above, you've doubled up a lot of characters, too.

People dislike Cersei because she is petty, cruel, spiteful, paranoid, wholly self-interested, convinced of her own brilliance but not actually very bright. Her influence helped create Joffrey, and she enabled the worst in him thereafter. Once Joffrey and Tywin are gone, she gets even worse, and singlehandedly drives the influence of the crown and the crown's most important alliance into the ground, while rounding up people on a whim and sending them to be experimented on in the Black Cells.

Her redeeming features in the show (or rather "feature", i.e. she loved her children) are much less identifiable in the book version. She's the least sympathetic of her family by a country mile, and that's saying something considering the family includes Tywin: Tywin at least has the argument that his cruelty and callousness were in the service of actually achieving something worthwhile. Cersei destroys everything she touches.

The hate she gets is entirely deserved, and is probably proportional to her prominence in the story relative to the characters listed above, none of whom are PoVs and some of whom are quite minor (e.g. Rorge, Craster).

I am not going to bother answering to all of this, but I will respond to the argument that Tywin is more "sympathetic" than Cersei. Tywin's abuse and negligience of Cersei )and all of his children really) is what made them into terrible people in the first place and Cersei would have turned out fine if someone other than Tywin Lannister had raised her. 

 Also, there are three wikis for villains. One of them is called Pure Evil wiki (which, in short, is about villains with no redeeming or sympathetic qualities), the second is called Near Pure Evil wiki (Which, in short, is about villains with almost no redeeming or sympathetic qualities but they still can’t qualify for the Pure Evil wiki for some reason. However, there are other cases where a villain can be Near Pure Evil even if they don't have any redeemable qualities like slightly lacking moral agency or slightly failing the heinous standard of the series because they don't go the extra mile in terms of crimes). There is also a third wiki called the Inconsistently Heinous wiki (which, in short, is about characters who have committed awful crimes, but they still have too many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and excuses for their actions to qualify as Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil). The name “Inconsistently Heinous” means that the characters are too inconsistent in their heinousness to be Near Pure Evil. 

 Tywin Lannister is listed on the Near Pure Evil wiki because while he is not quite Pure Evil, his preventions from being Pure Evil are really, really minor and unimportant. You can even see his page here on the Near Pure Evil wiki.

 Here are the things that prevent him from being Pure Evil that are listed on his Near Pure Evil page:
 

Quote

 

He has a tragic backstory as he had to watch his house and his father being mocked by other houses, so it fell to him to restore the Lannisters to prominence, and his wife died in childbirth, which is the reason he hates Tyrion, and it certainly made him harsher and colder. However, its not treated with too much sympathy in universe, so it is minor, especially the latter part since he was already a ruthless individual even before that and it is more just an extension of his next prevention.

While his relationship with Jaime and Cersei is murky at best, he has some family members that he genuinely loves, such as his late wife Joanna, as he married her purely for love, and never remarried after her death. He also seems to love his father Tytos, calling him a good man though also a weak one, and possibly his mother as well, and his brother Kevan, who he as a good working relationship with

 

 Those are literally his only preventions. The show adds a third one about him being affable to Arya Stark in one single scene but we are talking about the books.

 Cersei is listed as Inconsistently Heinous (you can see her page here) because characters who are listed as Inconsistently Heinous have huge redeeming and sympathetic qualities and Cersei is considered to qualify as Inconsistently Heinous because it was decided that she is too much of a victim of her circumstances and she is too affected by her tragic backstory unlike her father which makes her too insecure and too sympathetic to qualify as Near Pure Evil. Just to give you another example, Tyrion Lannister himself is also listed as Inconsistently Heinous Those are the preventions listed on her page which don't allow her to qualify as Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil (like Tywin):

Quote

She loves her family members except for Tyrion (more specifically, her children,her father, Tywin and her mother, Joanna). She is very protective of her children, doesn't want them to die and constantly fears for their safety.
When her son Joffrey dies, she breaks down over his corpse and cries and then she stays with his corpse and mourns it for days. At one point, she has a nice dream where Joffrey is still alive and she marries her brother, Jaime.
She is angry when Tyrion sends her daughter, Myrcella, to Dorn without her permission and starts threatening him. She breaks down into tears when he mentions that if Myrcella stays, she could be killed in the coming battle. She is also shocked when she learns that Myrcella has lost one of her ears.
In the fourth book she gets very protective of her son, Tommen, after the death of Joffrey. When Tommen chokes on his wine, she is afraid that someone had poisoned him, quickly stands up and goes to him to help. When she discovers that no one has poisoned him, she goes away and starts crying. During her imprisonment by the Faith Militant, she constantly thinks about her son and how she wants to go back to him. When she goes back to him, she starts spending a lot more time with him than ever before because she was relieved to see him again after her long imprisonment.
At one point, she had a nightmare where Tyrion has tied her up. She begs him to spare her kids, even though in the dream her own life is in danger.
She loves her father as she wants his respect, constantly thinks about what he would do and is sad when he dies.
She loves her mother. She blames her younger brother, Tyrion, for "killing" her mother because this is what she saw from her father. She also mentions to Sansa that when she was a little girl she prayed to the Gods to give her mother back.
Another prevention is that Cersei is a bit too tragic and her tragedy holds up. She lost her mother at the age of 7, she was born in a highly sexist society where women are inferior to men and she had to witness every day how she and Jaime would be treated differently (one example is that Jaime was groomed to be Tywin's heir because he was a boy, even though Cersei was older than him) and this treatment made Cersei extremely resentful of her status.
At the age of 10, Cersei received a prophecy from Maggy that all of her kids would die, that a younger and more baeutiful queen would take everything she holds dear and then Cersei herself would be killed by her younger brother. Needless to say, this made Cersei very paranoid about her life and the lives of her children and made her even more abusive towards Tyrion because she believes that he is the younger brother from the prophecy. A lot of the crimes that are listed above are an attempt to prevent this prophecy from happening and saving her children and herself.
Another aspect that makes her tragic is that her father, Tywin, was neglectful most of the time and he was a brutal ruler who taught his kids that they should be merciless, that they should care about morality only about the end results and so on. There is enough evidence that Cersei was seriously affecte by this upbringing. For example, on one occasion, while she is torturing the Blue Bard, she feels bad for him and wants to stop the torture. But then, she remembers that her father would probably be ashamed of her sign of weakness and he wouldn't do something like that, so she continues with the torture.
She was married to Robert Baratheon, who cheated on her and abused her by sometimes even raping her which also has an affect on her because she feels powerless during the rapes and she doesn't want this to happen again.
In the world of Westeros if it's discovered that she had cheated on her husband with Jaime, she and all of her kids would be executed. The reason why she kills Robert and Ned is because she wants to protect her life and the life of her kids from execution.
In general, she has suffered from systematic sexism for most of her life starting from childhood where she and Jaime were treated differently because of their gender and Jaime was groomed to become the heir to Casterly Rock while she was groomed to be married off despite being older than her brother. When she was married to her husband, she also suffered from the sexism of her society because her husband was allowed to cheat on her while if she was caught cheating, she and her entire family would be executed. She was also raped because there was no definition of marital rape in Westeros.
She suffers from a lot of insecurities (about being a woman, winning her father's approval, being fit to rule, etc.). She also has insecurities about not having any friends and she immediately decides to befriend the first woman she meets in the fourth book simply because she doesn't want to feel lonely.
On one occasion, after Ned gives her a chance to escape with her children from the city before he reports to Robert that she had been cheating on him, Cersei tells him that because of this she would allow him to go back to Winterfell and live out the rest of his life if he kneels to Joffrey and swears fealty to him. Ned doesn't do it and he ends up dead for this reason, but there is no indication Cersei wouldn't have kept her word if he had accepted and she still doesn't agree with Joffrey executing him.
Even though she is rude to Sansa, she still tries to give her advice about how to rule as a Queen, about the specifics of the female body and that she shouldn't love too many people or else she would get hurt. It's implied that the reason for this is because Cersei sees Sansa as a younger and more inexperienced version of herself. While, Cersei lates desires to execute Sansa because she believes that Sansa was involved in Joffrey's death, it doesn't entirely subvert her prevention because during her Walk of Shame, she still noticebly feels bad about how things turned out and that Cersei could have provided a good marriage for her if Joffrey hadn't beheaded her father. Sansa is also one of the people Cersei hallucinates about which indicates that she feels guilty about how she treated her
She is capable of feeling remorse on certain occasions. After the torture of the Blue Bard, she feels bad about it and tries to justify herself
She is also played for sympathy a lot as shown by the above examples. Aside from the examples that are already mentioned, during the Walk of Shame when she paraded naked through the streets of the city and the common people throw things at her, the story tries to frame the moment as an "Alas. Poor Villain" by presenting it from Cersei's point of view, presenting it in excrusiating detail, showing how it affects her psyche. The story clearly tries to make the readers feel bad for her during this chapter.

 No offence, but it's pretty clear who is more sympathetic when you just look at the things which prevent both of them from qualifying as Pure Evil and you see that Tywin just has two preventions which are really minor and barely save him from being Pure Evil while Cersei has a really long list of redeeming and sympathetic qualities to the point where she can't even be Near Pure Evil and she is listed as Inconsistently Heinous which is the same wiki on which Tyrion himself is listed. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Mourning Star]

The definitions of common tropes are not a sound basis for moral judgement.

I can't speak for anyone else but I dislike Cersei because she is selfish, cruel, and incompetent.

[Alester Florent]

I really don't care what's listed on any character's TVTropes page. That's just someone's interpretation, whether approved by a moderator for inclusion or not.

Quote

she is too affected by her tragic backstory unlike her father

What tragic backstory? The bit where she had one of the most privileged upbringings in Westeros, the bit where she murdered her friend for no particularly good reason, the bit where she seduced her twin brother, or the part where she fulfilled her dream of marrying the king while still seeing her brother on the side?

If you take her PoV at face value you might think she has a tragic backstory but this is because she has no sense of perspective whatsoever. You can't blame Tywin for all of Cersei's nonsense either: Tyrion and Jaime aren't exactly model citizens, but they're a hell of a lot more self-aware than Cersei is.

[Cas Stark]

Oh I don't she would have turned out 'fine'.  She was sexually involved with her brother at a young age and was violent as a very young girl.  She's a bad seed and would have turned out badly even with Ned Stark as a father, maybe not quite so bad, but she is a terrible person and has been terrible since early childhood.  She physically assaulted her baby brother, wished him dead, threatened and caused to be harmed servants, and that is all I remember off the top off my head not having read the books in years.

ETA..I had in fact forgotten she pushed her best friend down a well, making her a killer as a pre teen.

Her 'love' of her family is a show feature, the OG Cersei uses this as a pretext only. She encourages Joffrey's cruelty and outright abuses her youngest son.  She is a thoroughly despicable person and is rightly despised by most of the audience.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Cas Stark

[boltons are sick]

16 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I really don't care what's listed on any character's TVTropes page. That's just someone's interpretation, whether approved by a moderator for inclusion or not.

What tragic backstory? The bit where she had one of the most privileged upbringings in Westeros, the bit where she murdered her friend for no particularly good reason, the bit where she seduced her twin brother, or the part where she fulfilled her dream of marrying the king while still seeing her brother on the side?

If you take her PoV at face value you might think she has a tragic backstory but this is because she has no sense of perspective whatsoever. You can't blame Tywin for all of Cersei's nonsense either: Tyrion and Jaime aren't exactly model citizens, but they're a hell of a lot more self-aware than Cersei is.

I literally wrote that part:

Quote

Another prevention is that Cersei is a bit too tragic and her tragedy holds up. She lost her mother at the age of 7, she was born in a highly sexist society where women are inferior to men and she had to witness every day how she and Jaime would be treated differently (one example is that Jaime was groomed to be Tywin's heir because he was a boy, even though Cersei was older than him) and this treatment made Cersei extremely resentful of her status.
At the age of 10, Cersei received a prophecy from Maggy that all of her kids would die, that a younger and more baeutiful queen would take everything she holds dear and then Cersei herself would be killed by her younger brother. Needless to say, this made Cersei very paranoid about her life and the lives of her children and made her even more abusive towards Tyrion because she believes that he is the younger brother from the prophecy. A lot of the crimes that are listed above are an attempt to prevent this prophecy from happening and saving her children and herself.
Another aspect that makes her tragic is that her father, Tywin, was neglectful most of the time and he was a brutal ruler who taught his kids that they should be merciless, that they should care about morality only about the end results and so on. There is enough evidence that Cersei was seriously affecte by this upbringing. For example, on one occasion, while she is torturing the Blue Bard, she feels bad for him and wants to stop the torture. But then, she remembers that her father would probably be ashamed of her sign of weakness and he wouldn't do something like that, so she continues with the torture.
She was married to Robert Baratheon, who cheated on her and abused her by sometimes even raping her which also has an affect on her because she feels powerless during the rapes and she doesn't want this to happen again.
In the world of Westeros if it's discovered that she had cheated on her husband with Jaime, she and all of her kids would be executed. The reason why she kills Robert and Ned is because she wants to protect her life and the life of her kids from execution.
In general, she has suffered from systematic sexism for most of her life starting from childhood where she and Jaime were treated differently because of their gender and Jaime was groomed to become the heir to Casterly Rock while she was groomed to be married off despite being older than her brother. When she was married to her husband, she also suffered from the sexism of her society because her husband was allowed to cheat on her while if she was caught cheating, she and her entire family would be executed. She was also raped because there was no definition of marital rape in Westeros.
She suffers from a lot of insecurities (about being a woman, winning her father's approval, being fit to rule, etc.). She also has insecurities about not having any friends and she immediately decides to befriend the first woman she meets in the fourth book simply because she doesn't want to feel lonely.

Again, why do you consider Tywin more "sympathetic" than Cersei. He had a much easier life than her as he didn't receive a prophecy which foretells the deaths of all his family, didn't lose his mother at the age of 7, didn't have an abusive and negligient father who is described as "barely smiling" who forces his child to marry a second time and only sees her as bargaining chip and actively encourages her to despise those "beneath them" and be ruthless to win some of his favor, and constantly dismisses her, didn't suffer from constant sexism from his society, was the heir to Casterly Rock and was always destined to inherit, didn't get constantly raped throughout his marriage and didn't have to live in constant fear that he and his entire family would get executed because of the sexist laws of Westeros which allow the man to cheat on his wife but if the woman does the same, she would face the death penalty.

 In comparison, Tywin just had to witness how some people mocked his father and his House in his youth and then lost his wife in childbirth, but that's the extent of his tragedy (which is even listed on his page).

 Also, another thing that makes Cersei more sympathetic than Tywin is that she actually cares about all her children and shows affection to them. In contrast, we all know how Tywin treats his own son Tyrion, forcing him participate in the gang-rape of his own wife and trying to kill him repeatedly. However, we also decided after a discussion that Tywin doesn't care about Jaime and Cersei either because he only treats them relatively well when they are useful to him and just sees them as continuation of his Lannister legacy, doesn't show affection to them and treats them horribly in the present. That's why Cersei's love for her children is listed as a redeeming quality while about Tywin, the page notes his relationship with Jaime and Cersei is "murky at best".

 Also, just to be clear, I do think Cersei is a horrible person. I am just tired of constantly seeing characters who are just as bad as her or in some cases even much worse than she could ever be (like Tywin or Book!Littlefinger who are both listed as Near Pure Evil) get excuses for their actions while she gets condemned.

Edited April 4, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Alester Florent]

2 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

I literally wrote that part:

Again, why do you consider Tywin more "sympathetic" than Cersei.

I don't think Tywin is more sympathetic than Cersei so much as I think Cersei is less sympathetic than Tywin. Tywin is himself cruel, brutal and ruthless: he's virtually impossible to like. But he's also, unlike Cersei capable of running a hot dog stand - indeed, capable of running a kingdom. He understands how to make and maintain alliances, the value of mercy, and that loyalty is a two-way street. At the time of his death, the war is won and the realm is mostly pacified, with the status of the crown secured.

Cersei then tears all this apart for no reason whatsoever. Burning down the Tower of the Hand turnes out to have been a metaphor for her intentions for Tywin's legacy.

Tragic backstory. So this boils down to:

• Maggy the Frog prophecy.
• Mother died
• Father supposedly neglectful
• Society is like, really sexist, man
• Unpleasant marriage to Robert

She could just ignore the prophecy if she wanted. Any sympathy she might have got from me for that prophecy died at the point she fucking murdered her friend for having heard it.

Her mother dying is unfortunate. But not particularly unusual in Westeros. There's no evidence that Tywin was abusive towards his elder children: quite the contrary. If he was neglectful, this is probably in part because he was trying to run the kingdom half the time, and in any case she no doubt had hordes of governesses and what have you to take care of her, no different from any other noble girl.

The sexism thing I dismiss out of hand. Yes, I mean, it's bad, but it's also something that applies to literally half the population of Westeros. We're looking for stuff that is more tragic than usual. And by the standards of Westerosi women she is remarkably privileged.

In any case, the idea she wants to rule and can't because of sexism is (a) not true, since she does end up ruling anyway, and (b) on the assumption she'll actually be any good at it, when in fact she is fucking terrible at it. Like, genuinely the worst person we see run anything in the entire series, including Janos Slynt and Balon Greyjoy.

And so on to her marriage. I do think it's important to note that although she blames Robert for the state of it, and Robert certainly bears his share of the blame, she doesn't seem to have made any real effort either. She was banging Jaime throughout the marriage: did she ever intend to stop?

2 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

 Also, another thing that makes Cersei more sympathetic than Tywin is that she actually cares about all her children and shows affection to them... That's why Cersei's love for her children is listed as a redeeming quality while about Tywin, the page notes his relationship with Jaime and Cersei is "murky at best".

This is a show thing. Cersei rarely shows any affection for her children in the books except for Joffrey. She treats Tommen like absolute shit and even gloats to herself in her PoV how she intends to keep him from the throne as long as possible so that she can enjoy ruling instead.

[Craving Peaches]

Because I don't base all of what I think off what TV tropes says and Cersei is a cruel, petty, baby murderess who killed two newborns out of pure spite and vanity.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Alester Florent]

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Because I don't base all of what I think off what TV tropes says and Cersei is a cruel, petty, baby murderess who killed two newborns out of pure spite and vanity.

I completely forgot about the twins. She hasn't been cleared of Barra's killing either.

[Aldarion]

37 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

And so on to her marriage. I do think it's important to note that although she blames Robert for the state of it, and Robert certainly bears his share of the blame, she doesn't seem to have made any real effort either. She was banging Jaime throughout the marriage: did she ever intend to stop?

Regarding that, her banging Jaime is one of the reasons Cersei deserves to be so hated. Not for banging her brother, mind you, even if it is plenty creepy - but the reasons for it. She and Jaime are identical twins. So she isn't in love with him, she is in love with herself, and having sex with Jaime is the closest she will ever get to actually having sex with herself.

Egoistical and creepy.

Tywin was a massive asshole, sure, but he at least had people he loved: his wife, for example. Aerys was a murderous maniac, but he at least has some sort of a tragic backstory that kinda explains it. Cersei has neither - sure, she may love her children (and even that is questionable), but it would have been better for Joffrey if she hadn't. She essentially destroys everything she touches, yet she is so full of herself and so obsessed with herself that she cannot ever imagine being wrong.

[Craving Peaches]

I am growing weary of all these TV Tropes says X so why do you think different or not threads. TV Tropes is not the be all end all, it is unnecessary to even use when basic morality tells us Cersei is one of the worst people in the series. And I am tired of people claiming that nothing is Cersei's fault due to 'sexism' or whatever.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[sifth]

Because she kills babies and we're literally put in her head. I have a hard time not viewing people who kill babies as evil. Just my 2 cents.

[boltons are sick]

30 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Tywin was a massive asshole, sure, but he at least had people he loved: his wife, for example. Aerys was a murderous maniac, but he at least has some sort of a tragic backstory that kinda explains it. Cersei has neither - sure, she may love her children (and even that is questionable), but it would have been better for Joffrey if she hadn't. She essentially destroys everything she touches, yet she is so full of herself and so obsessed with herself that she cannot ever imagine being wrong.

Regarding Tywin, I already explained that he has MUCH LESS redeeming qualities than Cersei who actually loves her children unlike him and who actually feels bad about some of her actions and who actually has a much more tragic backstory than Tywin. She literally had to spend her whole life fearing about Maggy's prophecy and most of her actions are motivated by a desire to protect her family against that prophecy or against the unjust execution which would be given to them for her cheating on her rapist husband. And yes, Tywin was horrible to ALL of his children and DOESN'T love them, he just sees them as means to continue his own legacy.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

She is evil. Regardless of how wrong Westerosi society is, she chooses to do evil things. Not for the sake of anything but herself. She doesn’t truly love anyone or anything but herself. She murdered her friend as a child, she initiated an abusive and controlling relationship with her brother. She raised Joffrey to be as he was, and gave no care for Tommen or Myrcella u til they were out of her control. She has sold people into slavery, killed babies, and innocents. She is Evil with a capital E. It’s not a debate.

 

[Craving Peaches]

Also, Cersei is alive and still at large, whereas a lot of those other characters have received a karmic death.

[Cas Stark]

Sexism doesn't make women evil, cause them to commit multiple murders, abuse their family members and commit other atrocities.  In fact, Cersei Lannister is among the most privileged women in Westeros.  She is beautiful, rich, reasonably intelligent, has a large, loyal and powerful family. Yes, she internalized her societies misogyny, yes, her marriage was bad.  Neither of those things begins to excuse her behavior and since her first murder was years before she ever met her husband, we can know for a fact that she was evil long before then.

[boltons are sick]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I am growing weary of all these TV Tropes says X so why do you think different or not threads. TV Tropes is not the be all end all, it is unnecessary to even use when basic morality tells us Cersei is one of the worst people in the series. And I am tired of people claiming that nothing is Cersei's fault due to 'sexism' or whatever.

Ramsay, Joffrey, Rorge, Euron, Gregor, Craster, Maegor Targaryen, Tyanna of the Tower, Dalton Greyjoy, Qhored Hoare, the Bloodstone Emperor, Ulf and Hugh, Petyr Baelish, Vargo Hoat (and really the rest of the Bloody Mummers as well), Aerys Targaryen, Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, Balon Greyjoy, Lo Bu, Kraznys mo Nakloz and many, many other characters are worse than Cersei.

 Also, nobody is saying "it's not Cersei's fault due to sexism". I am just explaining that many things in her life led her down a dark path where she believes that she needs to commit atrocities to save her family and she is clearly meant to be a tragic. She is no more evil than someone like Tyrion Lannister who also does a lot of bad things (like mass murder, rape and torture) due to the bad circumastances in his life.

And yeah, fans are more willing to make excuses for bad things done by male characters than for bad things done by female characters (which shows even in this thread where we literally have sympathizers of Tywin who pillaged across the Riverlands and killed thousands of peasants and had a young girl gang-raped, forcing his own son to participate in it who think he is sympathetic and completely ignored that his emotional abuse and neglect of Cersei is one of the main reasons why she is the way she is today).

[boltons are sick]

8 minutes ago, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said:

She is evil. Regardless of how wrong Westerosi society is, she chooses to do evil things. Not for the sake of anything but herself. She doesn’t truly love anyone or anything but herself. She murdered her friend as a child, she initiated an abusive and controlling relationship with her brother. She raised Joffrey to be as he was, and gave no care for Tommen or Myrcella u til they were out of her control. She has sold people into slavery, killed babies, and innocents. She is Evil with a capital E. It’s not a debate.

 

We don't even know if she actually killed her friend. Also, you could make a similar sounding statement about Tyrion:

"Tyrion is evil. Regardless of how wrong Westerosi society is, hechooses to do evil things. Not for the sake of anything but himself. He sends a group of mountain savages to raze the Vale and slaughter many innocent peasants, sends dozens of people to be tortured to death by Joffrey, kills a singer and sends his remains to be cannibalized by the poor people of King's Landing, kills his former lover and rapes at least one sex girl. He is Evil with a capital E. It’s not a debate."

 Most of the characters in this series are awful, yet, for some reason the fandom chooses to ignore the wrongdoing of the male characters who do just as bad as Cersei, but they singularly focus on exposing everything Cersei has done.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

2 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

We don't even know if she actually killed her friend. Also, you could make a similar sounding statement about Tyrion:

"Tyrion is evil. Regardless of how wrong Westerosi society is, hechooses to do evil things. Not for the sake of anything but himself. He sends a group of mountain savages to raze the Vale and slaughter many innocent peasants, sends dozens of people to be tortured to death by Joffrey, kills a singer and sends his remains to be cannibalized by the poor people of King's Landing, kills his former lover and rapes at least one sex girl. He is Evil with a capital E. It’s not a debate."

 Most of the characters in this series are awful, yet, for some reason the fandom chooses to ignore the wrongdoing of the male characters who do just as bad as Cersei, but they singularly focus on exposing everything Cersei has done.

Tyrion is an evil person.