Why is Cersei hated so much when neither version is even in top 25 most evil characters of the whole Ice and Fire franchise (which includes the books, TV show and games)?

[kissdbyfire]

41 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I believe Jamie would have happily done that, left the country to be not so rich and powerful people, but free to be together.  Cersei is the one who, despite how much she hated her husband, stayed right there in Kings Landing to maintain her personal power. #noexcuses

This x 1,000. Readers like to use the argument that “oh but Cersei loves Jaime and their kids”, and it’s total bollocks. Her love only goes as far as she sees herself in them, b/c that’s all Cersei truly loves: herself. 

[Cas Stark]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This x 1,000. Readers like to use the argument that “oh but Cersei loves Jaime and their kids”, and it’s total bollocks. Her love only goes as far as she sees herself in them, b/c that’s all Cersei truly loves: herself. 

Yes.  The Show person named Cersei, you could make a case that even though her 'love' was toxic, it was a real thing.  Not so for Cersei Lannister as written.  She uses this as an excuse, because she always has some flimzy rationale for the evil she does.  Her actions toward her children show that she doesn't love them AT ALL.  They are, like her brother, nice to have around as a reflection of herself and as pawns to use for herself, but that's the end of it.  She is not capable of love.

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes.  The Show person named Cersei, you could make a case that even though her 'love' was toxic, it was a real thing.  Not so for Cersei Lannister as written.  She uses this as an excuse, because she always has some flimzy rationale for the evil she does.  Her actions toward her children show that she doesn't love them AT ALL.  They are, like her brother, nice to have around as a reflection of herself and as pawns to use for herself, but that's the end of it.  She is not capable of love.

Wholeheartedly agree. Even though both are nasty, Cersei and Carol are very different characters, and Cersei is much worse than Carol. 

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wholeheartedly agree. Even though both are nasty, Cersei and Carol are very different characters, and Cersei is much worse than Carol. 

I think the two D's regarded Carol as a heroine, as Tyrion was a saint.

Edited April 6, 2023 by SeanF

[csuszka1948]

On 4/5/2023 at 12:55 AM, boltons are sick said:

Regarding Tywin, I already explained that he has MUCH LESS redeeming qualities than Cersei who actually loves her children unlike him and who actually feels bad about some of her actions and who actually has a much more tragic backstory than Tywin. She literally had to spend her whole life fearing about Maggy's prophecy and most of her actions are motivated by a desire to protect her family against that prophecy or against the unjust execution which would be given to them for her cheating on her rapist husband. And yes, Tywin was horrible to ALL of his children and DOESN'T love them, he just sees them as means to continue his own legacy.

1) Cersei doesn't seem to love her children much more than Tywi loved Jaime. She only shows affection towards Joffrey -while being completely ignorant to his flaws - and doesn't want to teach Tommen how to rule effectively, she wants to use him as a puppet.

2) Did Cersei spend her whole life fearing from Maggy's prophecy? She certainly didn't attempt to have a child with Robert despite it would have proven the prophecy false.

It seems that Cersei only started fearing the prophecy after Joffrey's death, seemingly at Tyrion's hand.

3) Cersei cheated on Robert from day one, literally on the day of their wedding, so this wasn't the result of Robert's behaviour. Besides, she didn't just cheat on him, but attempted to pass her bastards as his heirs.

Finally, she literally ordered some of Robert's bastards killed (=unjustly executed), so it is just expected that Robert would do the same to hers.

[kissdbyfire]

47 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think the two D's regarded Carol as a heroine, as Tyrion was a saint.

Of course they did. And let’s not forget Strong and just Tywin, best ruler evah! 
Yeah, it was very clear who their faves were from the start, and it’s quite telling innit?

[Cas Stark]

Also worth noting that her own actions help bring the prophecy to action.  She could have had no children, 1, 2 or 4 or given Robert a 'black haired  beauty' legitimate heir.  Any of those outcomes would have disproven the prophecy.  Instead she has 3 children by her brother, all blonde and aborts Roberts'.  Ahem.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Also worth noting that her own actions help bring the prophecy to action.  She could have had no children, 1, 2 or 4 or given Robert a 'black haired  beauty' legitimate heir.  Any of those outcomes would have disproven the prophecy.  Instead she has 3 children by her brother, all blonde and aborts Roberts'.  Ahem.

She’s so dumb and shortsighted, and yet thinks she’s unfairly dismissed by others. She’s also at this point basically an alcoholic, so her stupid decisions are likely to become stupider and more unhinged. 

[Springwatch]

Cersei loved her babies so much that Jaime was jealous -

Quote

The boy had been a squalling pink thing who demanded too much of Cersei's time, Cersei's love, and Cersei's breasts.

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

She’s so dumb and shortsighted, and yet thinks she’s unfairly dismissed by others. She’s also at this point basically an alcoholic, so her stupid decisions are likely to become stupider and more unhinged. 

Yeah, I was always surprised that anyone thought she was some kind of great strategist. She showed herself to be all tactics no stragety way back in GOT.  Why officially alienate the Starks at the outset by demanding the wolf death?  What did she get other than a little jolt of feeling powerful, balanced off by revealing shes an enemy.  Same with Sansa, if she had protected her from Joff she would have had an ally for life. 

[James Arryn]

To be ~ fair to Cersei, there are a lot of schools of psychology that would more or less suggest all ‘love’ is itself a manifestation of self-interest, existential angst, a desire to belong/feel safe, etc. I’m willing to believe she loves her children, although I would agree there is a lot of self-love/narcissism and other stuff involved. 

That said, Cersei is an absolutely selfish parent w/e her motivation. If her redeeming feature is something she shares with most sentient mammals, I’m not sure how much that can redeem anyone. 
 

Returning to the OP question, I am confused by the need to rank stuff like this. She’s terrible. Ramsay is terrible. Is he more terrible? Probably, w/e that gets us. 

[SeanF]

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Of course they did. And let’s not forget Strong and just Tywin, best ruler evah! 
Yeah, it was very clear who their faves were from the start, and it’s quite telling innit?

Tywin was “Lawful neutral”, firm but fair.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tywin was “Lawful neutral”, firm but fair.

UGH, the “lawful neutral” bullshit! What it really means is, “yeah, we love Tywin coz he’s so awesome!”

[kissdbyfire]

35 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Cersei loved her babies so much that Jaime was jealous -

Sorry but this is a weak and even weird argument imo. I mean, it’s weird b/c assigning this type of subjective knowledge about Cersei’s feelings to Jaime doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. He’s just jealous, as you said. He doesn’t want to share her w/ anyone. Just b/c he uses the words “Cersei’s love” doesn’t mean a thing. He used to think she loved him as well, and she never really did. 

[boltons are sick]

 Cersei literally has a nightmare where Tyrion is torturing her and the only thing she does WHILE HE IS TORTURING HER AND HAS BIT OFF HER NIPPLES is for her to beg him not to harm her children. We literally have a woman who in her own dreams begs the man who is torturing her not to harm her children and DOESN'T ASK him to stop his torture of her which shows she is terrified more about what would happen to her own children than about her own life.

 I could give a lot more instances of her loving her children, but I guess I won't even bother listing them here because they are going to get countered with the typical generic response "Muh, cArsAi just sees her children as extensions of herself and her not asking the man who is torturing her for mercy for herself, but instead specifically and only asks him not to harm her children doesn't prove she loves them because she just sees them as extensions of herself, muh!" 

 I feel like even if Cersei decides to repent for everything she has done and decides to start doing good deeds to redeem herself in later books, the people here would still be like "Muh, cArsAi does good deeds and helps other people just to feel better about herself, muh. She is not like the awesome Jaime whose redemption is genuine because he was always a good person unlike her!"

 That's what I mean when I say that fans make out Cersei to be far worse than she actually is, and every single little thing she does gets overanalyzed and sctrutinized in an attempt to find some malicious intent, he suffering and tragedyget dismissed and when she shows some redeeming qualities, they always get dismissed with flawed arguments.

Edited April 6, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Cas Stark]

We see her abuse Tommen, in the real world, not a dream.  

[boltons are sick]

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

We see her abuse Tommen, in the real world, not a dream.  

We literally see from her own thoughts that she is afraid that Tommen is so shy and wants him to be more assertive. Also, all this bad behaviour towards Tommen happens in the fourth book with no indication she has treated him like that before the fourth book. At that point she has already lost her eldest child, lost her father and she lives in costant fear that someone would murder Tommen and she believes that in order for Tommen to survive, he needs to stop being easily manipulated and shy and gets frustarted with him because she thinks this would get him killed. I am REALLY shocked that she would snap at people when she is under so much stress.

 And it doesn't matter if it is a dream or not. It still proves she loves her children dearly and would probably act the same way in a situation in the real world.

Edited April 6, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Cas Stark]

9 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

We literally see from her own thoughts that she is afraid that Tommen is so shy and wants him to be more assertive. Also, all this bad behaviour towards Tommen happens in the fourth book with no indication she has treated him like that before the fourth book. At that point she has already lost her eldest child, lost her father and she lives in costant fear that someone would murder Tommen and she believes that in order for Tommen to survive, he needs to stop being easily manipulated and shy and gets frustarted with him because she thinks this would get him killed. I am REALLY shocked that she would snap at people when she is under so much stress.

 And it doesn't matter if it is a dream or not. It still proves she loves her children dearly and would probably act the same way in a situation in the real world.

Righto.  She wants him to be more like Joff...animal torturer, human torturer, foolish and cruel, whose short rule of the Seven Kingdoms started a war.    True, he was much like his mother I guess.  Stop being manipulated?  What are you even talking about, she isn't teaching him how to rule or even protecting him, she simply set things up so SHE can manipulate him...because she is an abusive piece of garbage.

[boltons are sick]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

To be ~ fair to Cersei, there are a lot of schools of psychology that would more or less suggest all ‘love’ is itself a manifestation of self-interest, existential angst, a desire to belong/feel safe, etc. I’m willing to believe she loves her children, although I would agree there is a lot of self-love/narcissism and other stuff involved. 

That said, Cersei is an absolutely selfish parent w/e her motivation. If her redeeming feature is something she shares with most sentient mammals, I’m not sure how much that can redeem anyone. 
 

Returning to the OP question, I am confused by the need to rank stuff like this. She’s terrible. Ramsay is terrible. Is he more terrible? Probably, w/e that gets us. 

She also loves her father, mother and Jaime, feels remorse for torturing the Blue Bard and on some other occasions, acts affable with Sansa and shows her some things she thinks would be useful to her and gives Ned the choice to return to Winterfell and live out the rest of his life as a gratitude for the fact he provided her with a similar choice and she tries to act nicely with Tyrion in teh second book before he kidnaps her son and threatens him. 

 The reason why I am doing this ramking is because she is no more morally worse than her brothers, Jaime and Tyrion who are beloved by the fandom. Most of her actions are motivated by a desire to protect her family while Ramsay's actions are motivated purely by sadism and he has absolutely no redeeming quality. Cersei's evilness is just REALLY exaggerated by the whole fandom even though she is not really that bad because most of the characters in this series, including the anti-heroes, have done something terrible yet Cersei is the only one who gets hated for morally ambigous literally most in position of power in ASOIAF have done. 

 Is Cersei terrible. Yes, but Ramsay is BILLIONS of times worse while Cersei in terms of morality ranks somewhere around the same place where Tyrion would rank.

 It's not just Ramsay. We also have Gregor Clegane, Joffrey, Rorge, Craster, Euron, Littlefinger, Walder Frey, Aerys, Maegor, Karl Tanner, Dalton Greyjoy, Qhored Hoare, the Bloodstone Emperor, Tyanna, Valarr Hill and many, many others who are way worse than Cersei. This list to show how fans GREATLY exaggerate how evil Cersei is because there are dozens upon dozens of characters who unlike her have no excuses for their actions while she has sympathetic motivations for her own actions that could be used to justify her bad actions to an extent unlike Ramsay and has lots of redeeming qualities unlike the characters I listed and no, her love for her children is not her only redeeming quality as I already explained.

Edited April 6, 2023 by boltons are sick

[James Arryn]

10 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

We literally see from her own thoughts that she is afraid that Tommen is so shy and wants him to be more assertive. Also, all this bad behaviour towards Tommen happens in the fourth book with no indication she has treated him like that before the fourth book. At that point she has already lost her eldest child, lost her father and she lives in costant fear that someone would murder Tommen and she believes that in order for Tommen to survive, he needs to stop being easily manipulated and shy and gets frustarted with him because she thinks this would get him killed. I am REALLY shocked that she would snap at people when she is under so much stress.

 And it doesn't matter if it is a dream or not. It still proves she loves her children dearly and would probably act the same way in a situation in the real world.

Sorry, do you think abusive parents don’t feel protective towards their children? There is literally nothing to demonstrate that that is true. If loving your children prevented parental abuse, there would be a fraction of a fraction of it. The idea that it’s primarily evil step parents or sociopaths who don’t care is a trope that probably sustains abusive situations more than it prevents any.

In fact abuse can be seen to be more likely BECAUSE of the stresses involved in loving/feeling protective towards children, as odd as that sounds. People who don’t care tend to be less situationally stressed than people who do.