The Possibility of the Trajectory of Jon and Daenerys’ stories being swapped by the end of ASOIAF

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Something I’ve thought about recently, is that Daenerys is clearly Azor Ahai, either the only one or one of two. She fulfills the prophecy before we even know about the prophecy. But up until we last saw her, her entire story has been about getting to Westeros, and reconquering it, and becoming Queen. However it seems inevitable that she’ll be deeply involved in the battle with others, and will perhaps take the leadership and hero role in the final battle. Which honestly feels insulting to Jon’s story, as he has been the only one actually preparing for the true threat, only to have Dany swoop in at the last minute, to take what feels like should be his role.

But I can also say that about Jon becoming King in the end of the story. It’s what Dany has worked towards for the entire story thus far, and to have him come in at the end and becoming King of Westeros instead of her, also feels a bit insulting Dany’s story thus far.

Perhaps George is steering the story in this direction? What do you all think?

[Craving Peaches]

I don't think most people in Westeros will want Daenerys as Queen.

[astarkchoice]

33 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think most people in Westeros will want Daenerys as Queen.

Briennes chapter shows a couple of hillbillies in the crownlands love her

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Briennes chapter shows a couple of hillbillies in the crownlands love her

Aside from them though also I really don't see average commoner loving someone who is bringing Dothraki, Heathen Zealots, (Ex)Slaves etc. to steal all their food when people are already starving.

[Daeron the Daring]

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Aside from them though also I really don't see average commoner loving someone who is bringing Dothraki, Heathen Zealots, (Ex)Slaves etc. to steal all their food when people are already starving.

Of these 3, only dothraki are actually savages. I just hope they don't come to Westeros.

And it's not like you need any of these 3 to cause mayhem. Westerosi peope managed to do that on their own, they were quite succesful. All it took was a single year, and you got half the country starving, with many more to come.

I think the people will have enough evil to hate without Daenerys too, no matter which direction you look at.

[astarkchoice]

58 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Aside from them though also I really don't see average commoner loving someone who is bringing Dothraki, Heathen Zealots, (Ex)Slaves etc. to steal all their food when people are already starving.

Its ok sweetheart i know your starving but the lord we never see and treats us as a step above slaves has been replaced by a pretty lady with silver hair.

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Its ok sweetheart i know your starving but the lord we never see and treats us as a step above slaves has been replaced by a pretty lady with silver hair.

Yes but you see the average nobleman's and ignorant peasant's though process probably goes something like this:

Woman...Foreigner...Bad!

And that is putting aside all the legitimate grievances people could have against Daenerys: Bringing Dothraki, bringing tens of thousands more mouths to feed during winter when there is already a food shortage.

[astarkchoice]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes but you see the average nobleman's and ignorant peasant's though process probably goes something like this:

Woman...Foreigner...Bad!

And that is putting aside all the legitimate grievances people could have against Daenerys: Bringing Dothraki, bringing tens of thousands more mouths to feed during winter when there is already a food shortage.

Ooh i agree

Dont forget her entourage of creepy semi robot eunuch killing machines , the 3 pronged blue bearded sellsword shes clearly fucking , the other 3 bizzare sellsword companies in tow, the foriegners who worship her along  with their scary new fire religion ( which is growing in the riverlands) ,the father and uncle  killing demon monkey dwarf, the most brutal and dumbest (some competion) of the ironborn and her advisors a huge firepriest and the craziest maester in oldtown......but they have selemy so thats ok.

[BlackLightning]

7 hours ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

Something I’ve thought about recently, is that Daenerys is clearly Azor Ahai, either the only one or one of two. She fulfills the prophecy before we even know about the prophecy. But up until we last saw her, her entire story has been about getting to Westeros, and reconquering it, and becoming Queen. However it seems inevitable that she’ll be deeply involved in the battle with others, and will perhaps take the leadership and hero role in the final battle. Which honestly feels insulting to Jon’s story, as he has been the only one actually preparing for the true threat, only to have Dany swoop in at the last minute, to take what feels like should be his role.

But I can also say that about Jon becoming King in the end of the story. It’s what Dany has worked towards for the entire story thus far, and to have him come in at the end and becoming King of Westeros instead of her, also feels a bit insulting Dany’s story thus far.

Perhaps George is steering the story in this direction? What do you all think?

I do think that their stories will be "swapped" but I think it will happen organically in a way that both Dany and Jon will be comfortable with.

By the time Dany learns that she needs to leave for Westeros ASAP, she would have created her own very large empire in Essos. And, let's be honest, by the time we get halfway through A Dance with Dragons, going back to Westeros and becoming its Queen is no longer a priority of Dany's. Besides, what Dany ultimately wants is more family. Becoming Queen has never been her principal ambition. She frequently dreams of being a barefoot and pregnant housewife. Outside of her desire for home and family, her true passion is to command armies and to save and protect people. Not to rule.

Also, I don't think Jon is that attached to being The Hero in the fight against the Others. I think that he just does it because he has to (i.e. it's his job) and because he's qualified to take the lead in the situation. I think Jon would be relieved if there was someone just as dedicated as he is (or even more dedicated) in the quest to save the humanity. Plus, Jon really likes ruling, governing and commanding...he always has. Given time, he would really embrace his birthright and find purpose and joy out of being King of All Westeros.

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Aside from them though also I really don't see average commoner loving someone who is bringing Dothraki, Heathen Zealots, (Ex)Slaves etc. to steal all their food when people are already starving.

Dany's armies would be bringing their own food and supply lines.

It'll be deep winter (or a false spring) when Dany shows up so there'll be no foraging. She -- and her allies -- are not idiots.

[sifth]

Sadly we're probably getting Bran the Broken as king, but we can dream of better ideas. We can dream.

[Craving Peaches]

21 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Dany's armies would be bringing their own food and supply lines.

Hopefully.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

49 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

 

Dany's armies would be bringing their own food and supply lines.

It'll be deep winter (or a false spring) when Dany shows up so there'll be no foraging. She -- and her allies -- are not idiots.

She can only bring so much. They’ll have to live off of Westeros as well, and there isn’t much left for the people already there.

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

She can only bring so much. They’ll have to live off of Westeros as well, and there isn’t much left for the people already there.

She actually can bring as much food as she likes.

Since she'll more than likely have control of almost all of western Essos by the time she gets around to going to Westeros, she can be continuously ferrying over food.

That actually would be a good diplomatic tool

I have food and you have none. Swear yourself to me and I'll make sure you and yours are fed for the duration of winter. You're free to choose to die if you rather remain loyal to Aegon.

[csuszka1948]

I am almost certain Jon will fulfill the other Azor Ahai prophecy after Melisandre resurrects him:

"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow." - Melisandre I, ADWD

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." - Davos I, ACOK

This already has setup - after Beric Dondarrion had been resurrected, his sword was burning in battle. However, he wasn't Azor Ahai because his sword was not Valyrian steel - it cannot kill Others and it can be broken (as the Hound has done it). Jon's sword Longclaw is Valyrian steel and it will become 'Lightbringer'.

 

I think both him and Dany will be deeply involved in the war against the Others and will lead the 'final battle' riding Drogon together and forming the 3 heads of the dragon. (I am not sure they will win this battle, though.)

 

That's not insulting to Jon's 'story'. He hasn't even seen the Others and 'his story' is just as much centered on saving the wildlings and helping to free the North from Bolton rule. If anyone's 'story' is centered on the Long Night, it's Bran who (at the very beginning) was told by the three-eyed crow to 'fly' because 'Winter is Coming'.

Generally, I think it's wrong to view character's stories as defeating some external enemies. Their biggest battles are with 'themselves': Jon with struggling being a bastard and being torn between family/love and duty, Bran with struggling being a cripple and appreciating life and people around him, Dany trying to find a place where she feels home and people she can trust and torn between being Mother of Dragons and Mhysa. 

 

Dany or Jon won't become ruler of Westeros at the end. Dany because she arrived at the wrong time (Aegon has stolen her thunder) and the large majority of people will view her as a foreign invader unfamiliar with the customs of the Seven Kingdoms, and Jon because he will decide not to stake his claim.

[csuszka1948]

19 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

She actually can bring as much food as she likes.

Since she'll more than likely have control of almost all of western Essos by the time she gets around to going to Westeros, she can be continuously ferrying over food.

That actually would be a good diplomatic tool

I have food and you have none. Swear yourself to me and I'll make sure you and yours are fed for the duration of winter. You're free to choose to die if you rather remain loyal to Aegon.

 

I have doubts whether she will be really in control of Western Essos. She will definitely free Volantis and take a visit to Pentos, but even if the slaves rebel in the other Free Cities, it doesn't mean they will want to ferry food to her because they will have their own troubles setting up their government.

Besides, I am not sure that Aegon won't have food to distribute. If he marries Sansa, the stocks of the Vale will be available to him and I don't expect the entire food storage of the Reach will be burned down either.

[SeanF]

Some foods are more readily transportable than others.  Supplies of alcohol, spices, salted and pickled foodstuffs, can all be brought by ship, and transported upriver.

Anything fresh (including grass for horses and oxen) has to be obtained locally.  And if there are no handy rivers to transport food by ship, than everything has to be obtained from magazines, or else foraged.

That said, Westeros is vast and its population numbers in the tens of millions.  30-40,000 soldiers aren’t going to make that much difference to the food supply.

[Aldarion]

On 4/21/2023 at 4:48 PM, BlackLightning said:

Dany's armies would be bringing their own food and supply lines.

It'll be deep winter (or a false spring) when Dany shows up so there'll be no foraging. She -- and her allies -- are not idiots.

I would really like to see her fleet of container ships and airlift aircraft that would facilitate this...

[Daeron the Daring]

On 4/21/2023 at 1:39 PM, Craving Peaches said:

bringing tens of thousands more mouths to feed during winter when there is already a food shortage.

No offense, my friend, but this is stupid. 

Even if we were to ignore (the more important) half of the story (the Others), foreign armies won't make anyone angry 

I wrote a reply earlier, but to make this clear: Dothraki? Bad. Superbad. Deserve to be eradicated style bad.

But I want to ask you: if you were a commoner riverlander, which one would you choose? The men of your village (maybe you too, not assuming a gender here) be conscripted into a war of someone else's benefit, or have professional armies do it in your stead (with the addition of dragons).

Have people like Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane raze the countryside for supplies, or a well-mannered, organized, professional army do it, who are told to behave, and who do not fall into cruelty for the sake of it? George may or may not 'magically' (unrealistically, I mean) provide supplies to Daenerys' host, but I'm sure as hell the realistic way to do it would be collecting it from where it can be.

Altough we see that Jon intends to supply the Watch from Essos, with Iron Bank funds, I'm not sure Daenerys is set up to partially or fully rely on this. I would say partially, the very least.

And thousands don't add up to the food shortage. Hundreds of thousands died already, some regions of Westeros were heavily exploited, but the food must be somewhere, even with additional waste, the last harvest didn't suffer that greatly. If it's not enough, then it's not enough. And if it's not enough, then it won't be because of the Others and the winter. And guess what, determined manpower is crucial to defeating the Others, altough I personally think the resolution won't come from a battle fought on a field.

 

[GZ Bloodraven]

On 4/21/2023 at 12:06 AM, King Maegor the Cool said:

Perhaps George is steering the story in this direction? What do you all think?

I don't want them to swap stories, but I also don't think "one person kills the Others, one person rules the realm" is the way any of this will go down. There are plenty of advisory roles in both the killing of the Others and the ruling of the kingdom. If the Starks and Dany can get the Lannisters and Boltons out of power, they should be able to Pact of Ice and Fire that shit and do both together. Jon and Dany power-couple is probably too optimistic, but I honestly feel it would be more narratively satisfying than "dragon lady burns the ice guys, and rightful heir assumes rightful heir role." 

[Craving Peaches]

34 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No offense, my friend, but this is stupid. 

Even if we were to ignore (the more important) half of the story (the Others), foreign armies won't make anyone angry 

Good friend, I appreciate your opinion, but I fear your are approaching the issue in a far more rational and enlightened manner than people in Westeros will. Daenerys and co. will be considered by some people as awful by default just because they are seen as foreigners.

34 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

But I want to ask you: if you were a commoner riverlander, which one would you choose? The men of your village (maybe you too, not assuming a gender here) be conscripted into a war of someone else's benefit, or have professional armies do it in your stead (with the addition of dragons).

Obviously the second, but the Unsullied are really the only kind of 'professionals' in Daenerys' army who won't engage in any sort of looting. Dothraki certainly will. So would most sellswords. And just because she has these forces available, doesn't mean Daenerys and the people following her won't conscript peasants. 

I admit I have overestimated the actual impact Daenerys and co. would have on food supplies in Westeros, unless she brings far more troops than we expect. But I think it still will be exploited as propaganda to (try and) turn people against her, among other things.