School shooting in Belgrade, Serbia

[Zorral]

And now, this:

Nato troops injured in clashes with Serb protesters in Kosovo
About 25 Italian and Hungarian soldiers from Kfor mission and two Serbs reportedly injured

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/29/nato-troops-injured-in-clashes-with-serb-protesters-in-kosovo
 

Quote

 

.... Kosovo’s president, Vjosa Osmani, accused her Serbian counterpart, Aleksandar Vučić, of destabilising Kosovo.

“Serb illegal structures turned into criminal gangs have attacked Kosovo police, Kfor [peacekeeping] officers & journalists. Those who carry out Vučić’s orders to destabilise the north of Kosovo must face justice,” Osmani tweeted.

The tense situation developed after ethnic Albanian mayors took office in northern Kosovo’s Serb-majority area after elections that the Serbs boycotted – a move that led the US and its allies to rebuke Pristina on Friday.

In Zvecan, one of the towns, Kosovo police – staffed by ethnic Albanians after Serbs quit the force last year – sprayed pepper gas to repel a crowd of Serbs who broke through a security barricade and tried to force their way into the municipality building, witnesses said.

Serb protesters in Zvecan threw tear gas and stun grenades at Nato soldiers. Serbs also clashed with police in Zvecan and spray-painted Nato vehicles with the letter “Z”, referring to a Russian sign used in the war in Ukraine.

In Leposavic, close to the border with Serbia, US peacekeeping troops in riot gear placed barbed wire around the town hall to protect it from hundreds of angry Serbs.

Later in the day, protesters threw eggs at a parked car belonging to the new Leposavic mayor.

Vučić, who is the commander in chief of the Serbian armed forces, raised the army’s combat readiness to the highest level, the defence minister, Miloš Vučević, told reporters.

“This implies that immediately before 2pm [noon GMT], the Serbian armed forces’ chief of the general staff issued additional instructions for the deployment of the army’s units in specific, designated positions,” Vučević said, without elaborating.

Nato peacekeepers also blocked off the town hall in Zubin Potok to protect it from angry local Serbs, witnesses said.

Igor Simić, the deputy head of the Serb List, the biggest Belgrade-backed Kosovo Serb party, accused Kosovo’s prime minister, Albin Kurti, of fuelling tensions in the north.

“We are interested in peace. Albanians who live here are interested in peace, and only he [Kurti] wants to make chaos,” Simić told reporters in Zvecan.

Serbs, who comprise a majority in Kosovo’s north, have never accepted its 2008 declaration of independence from Serbia and still see Belgrade as their capital more than two decades after the Kosovo Albanian uprising against repressive Serbian rule.

Ethnic Albanians make up more than 90% of the population in Kosovo as a whole, but northern Serbs have long demanded the implementation of an EU-brokered 2013 deal for the creation of an association of autonomous municipalities in their area.

Serbs refused to take part in local elections in April and ethnic Albanian candidates won the mayoralties in four Serb-majority municipalities – including North Mitrovica, where no incidents were reported on Monday – with a 3.5% turnout.

Serbs demand that the Kosovo government remove ethnic Albanian mayors from town halls and allow local administrations financed by Belgrade to resume their work.

On Friday, three out of the four ethnic Albanian mayors were escorted in to their offices by police, who were pelted with rocks and responded with teargas and water cannon to disperse the protesters. ....

 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, Zorral said:

And now, this:

Nato troops injured in clashes with Serb protesters in Kosovo
About 25 Italian and Hungarian soldiers from Kfor mission and two Serbs reportedly injured

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/29/nato-troops-injured-in-clashes-with-serb-protesters-in-kosovo
 

 

Seems like Vuvic’s parry and repoiste to the protesters…

[baxus]

Serbian people boycotted recent local elections in Kosovo and as a result Albanian parties won elections in northern parts of Kosovo, the only part left with significant Serbian population. Serbian people wouldn't allow those parties to take over, claiming that voter turnout was too low for those elections to be legitimate. In principle, they are right (turnout in those areas was < 5%) but, from what I understand, Kosovo laws don't recognise minimal voter turnout for elections to be valid.

When Vucic organised a counter to people's protests, he dragged people from all over Serbia and Bosnia, as well as from northern part of Kosovo to Belgrade for that day. With a lot of people away, Kosovo authorities seized the opportunity to take over.

Funny part is that Kosovo Prime Minister's brother owns a company that rented buses for people to go to Belgrade for that Vucic's gathering.

Of course, Vucic did all the bullshit posturing, getting Serbian army in positions near Kosovo border only to have them return to barracks a couple of hours later. Unfortunately, a lot of people in Serbia are still buying that. But that number does seem to dwindle by the day, so that's something.

[Zorral]

Growing Protests in Serbia Demand Social Changes After Mass Shootings
The protests, which have gathered momentum since two massacres in May, are denouncing a “culture of violence” and the increasingly authoritarian rule of the country’s leader.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/03/world/europe/serbia-protests-vucic.html

Quote

 

Protests in Serbia over back-to-back mass shootings last month ballooned on Saturday into the biggest street demonstrations in the capital, Belgrade, since demonstrators toppled Slobodan Milosevic as Serbia’s president in 2000.

Weekly “Serbia Against Violence” protests have been gathering momentum since early May when two massacres — one at a school in Belgrade, the second in nearby villages — killed 18 people and set off a wave of public revulsion at what critics of the country’s strongman leader, Aleksandar Vucic, denounce as a “culture of violence” promoted by the government and loyal media outlets.

Saturday’s protest, the fifth and biggest by far, increased pressure on Mr. Vucic to meet at least some of the protesters’ demands. Those demands include the dismissal of senior law enforcement officials and the withdrawal of broadcasting licenses from pro-government television stations notorious for airing violent reality shows and ignoring opposition politicians.

“Enough is enough,” Zoran Kesić, a satirist and television presenter, told protesters. “Enough with violence, enough with hatred and intimidation, enough with humiliation.”

The protests have grown into a wider, though so far, peaceful, revolt against the increasingly authoritarian rule of Mr. Vucic, who has governed the Balkan nation, first as prime minister and then as president, for nearly a decade.

Mr. Vucic began his political career as a radical nationalist during the Balkan wars of the 1990s, but has sought in recent years to present himself as a pro-European leader eager for Serbia to revive its stalled efforts to join the European Union. He has balked at imposing sanctions on Russia over its war in Ukraine, but Serbia did vote at the United Nations to condemn Moscow.

Many protesters on Saturday chanted for Mr. Vucic to resign, and one group released helium balloons carrying a banner with the message “Vucic Go Away” under a large picture of the president, which sailed off into the sky.

The president, who won re-election in a landslide last year, is determined to stay put, dismissing the protests as a “political stunt” by his opponents.

Unlike a huge protest involving soccer hooligans and arson in October 2000 that forced the resignation of Mr. Milosevic, under whom Mr. Vucic served as information minister, Saturday’s demonstration was peaceful, except for a few clashes between protesters and pro-government agitators.

Mr. Vucic has faced — and survived — large street protests in the past, but none as big as on Saturday. Past protests, spearheaded by opposition parties and disrupted by violence provoked by government supporters, all fizzled.

But Ivan Ivanovic, a 48-year-old demonstrator, noted that the anti-violence protests, in contrast to earlier rounds of street demonstrations, were only growing in size.

“The motivation is very strong — in a sad way. This is not about the opposition. This is people who are fed up,” he said.

 

‘We’ve never felt free of Serbia’: Kosovan Albanians blame Belgrade for violence
As a new wave of violence hits northern Kosovo, one of the mayors whose election sparked Serb anger says criminal gangs are leading the ‘revolt’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/04/weve-never-felt-free-of-the-serbs-albanian-kosovans-blame-belgrade-for-violence

.... Kosovo declared independence from Serbia in 2008, a decade after Serbian president Slobodan Milošević’s ethnic cleansing campaign against its majority Albanian population. That culminated in the 1998-99 war, which was ultimately ended by a Nato bombing campaign.

Quote

 

Most western countries, including the UK and US, recognise Kosovo’s sovereignty but Serbia and its allies Russia and China do not. Serbs continue to make up Kosovo’s largest minority, at about 5% of its population, and they are a majority in the four northern municipalities.

Zeqiri, a grassroots political activist who has run for mayor once before, sidestepped the worst of the unrest by ignoring the order from Kurti – who leads a different political party – to take up office in the Zubin Potok town hall. He instead based himself in Çabër, an Albanian village where there were no protests.

Like many in Kosovo, he believes some protesters are linked to organised crime. “It was quite a stressful week,” he said, with understatement.

“We are still in the phase of creating our new cabinet, so it was bad to see the revolt that was caused by these criminal gangs … their actions go against our constitutional order.”

Journalists on the ground reported many attacks, threats and intimidation, which suggested more than a spontaneous grassroots uprising. ....

 

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Zorral

[baxus]

I haven't read the article, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Albanians who were interviewed failed to mention all the crimes "their side" was responsible for? Or "their" gangs and drug runners etc.?

It seems to be the MO in the Balkans - we all try to present ourselves as noble Elves surrounded by foul Orcs. That's a big reason why we are in the position we're in. When Serbian authorities process and punish Serbian criminals, Albanian authorities in Kosovo process Albanian criminals, Bosnian and Croatian authorities do the same with theirs, then we can move on. As it is, we have convicted war criminals closely linked to Serbian authorities, we have similar charges against Kosovo "politicians" dropped because "witnesses disappeared", Croatian generals get convicted for ethnic cleansing etc. for 20 years and then released on appeal, and let's not even get started on Bosnia...

It's a weird region of the world, with too many people living in it not even understanding it's weird.

[Mladen]

On 6/4/2023 at 5:31 PM, Zorral said:

Growing Protests in Serbia Demand Social Changes After Mass Shootings
The protests, which have gathered momentum since two massacres in May, are denouncing a “culture of violence” and the increasingly authoritarian rule of the country’s leader.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/03/world/europe/serbia-protests-vucic.html

‘We’ve never felt free of Serbia’: Kosovan Albanians blame Belgrade for violence
As a new wave of violence hits northern Kosovo, one of the mayors whose election sparked Serb anger says criminal gangs are leading the ‘revolt’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/04/weve-never-felt-free-of-the-serbs-albanian-kosovans-blame-belgrade-for-violence

.... Kosovo declared independence from Serbia in 2008, a decade after Serbian president Slobodan Milošević’s ethnic cleansing campaign against its majority Albanian population. That culminated in the 1998-99 war, which was ultimately ended by a Nato bombing campaign.

 

Following illegal bombing of a sovereign nation by what is being called "peacekeeping alliance":

1. Mass exodus of all non-Albanian population from southern parts of Kosovo, circa 200k Serbs, Montenegrins and other nations.

2. Illegal appropriation of all property owned by Serbian citizens, destructions of graveyards, churches from medieval times resulting those few brave non-Albanians to basically live in enclaves.

3. Under KFOR and NATO supervision, in March 2004 happened the last ethnic cleansing in Europe when 4000 Serbs have been exiled from their homes.

4. Cultural appropriation of Serbian history on Kosovo, with Albanians on Kosovo claiming that the churches and monasteries on Kosovo have been built by Albanians (just to point out that there are hundreds of historical sources across Europe that refute this attempt to cultural appropriation). Cherry on the cake, let's see how protected were those churches and monasteries under their guidance: 

 

 

5. Calling Kosovo independent state is laughable by any means. If NY Times wrote about connections between Serbian governments and hooligans, I imagine they would need one whole edition to do the same for connections between Priština government and their extremist. The emigration from Kosovo is so large that sardines are packed more loosely than those buses heading towards Austria, Switzerland and Germany.

6. Now, let's talk about mayors elected to govern basically the enclaves in which Serbs on Kosovo are allowed to breathe and exist. Perhaps, in all their wisdom, NY Times has forgotten to mention that Serbs have boycotted the election. Perhaps they have forgotten to mention that forcible occupation of administrative centers was done fully aware of the resistance of people who never voted.

 

What annoys me here the most is this uninformed and borderline offensive (scratch that borderline) off topic in which @Zorral tries to paint Serbian society as one having the problem with violence. And we have moved from two tragic events that shocked entire nation to the protests of people who simply don't recognize certain authority. I suppose we should have the same stance towards January, 6th Capitol attack. Because there is simply no difference what was being done by Albanian mayors in Kosovo and pro-Trump mob during the Jan. 6th insurrection. 

These mass shootings cannot and shouldn't be used as the platform to discuss what is happening right now at Kosovo. Because that particular Pandora Box that allowed Putin to do what he wants with Ukraine while the rest of the world snickers at NATO and EU lamentations. Naturally, just like Clinton didn't care when his merciful angels have been targeting hospitals and trains full of children, neither does Putin care much about the lives of Ukrainians. And neither does NY Times in reporting what Serbs on northern Kosovo has been subjected to the past two decades under "protection" of KFOR. 

None of us from Serbia, neither me nor @baxus, nor anyone else, negated that Serbian society has a lot to process and find some solution for the cultural and educational crisis we are all facing. Not to mention the importance of mental health of the nation. But, it is truly repulsive to put all these events in the same context and talk about "culture of violence". 

And talking of that "culture of violence" of Serbs on Kosovo, here is what they and KFOR soldiers have been doing the past few days:

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Mladen

[baxus]

The point is that conflicts like these don't happen because one side was bored and decided to stir some shit up. It's not "noble elves vs foul orcs" and reducing it to that can only lead to conflicts never getting resolved.

There's no denying that there are Albanians in Kosovo who faced severe abuse and discrimination from Serbian authorities, but you know what? My wife and her family experienced the same when they fled for their lives from their homes in Kosovo AND METOHIJA in '99. The sad thing is that everyone focuses on one side of the story and one "set" of victims. What's even worse, those responsible for all that abuse will most likely never stand trial and be punished for what they did.

[Mladen]

3 hours ago, baxus said:

The point is that conflicts like these don't happen because one side was bored and decided to stir some shit up. It's not "noble elves vs foul orcs" and reducing it to that can only lead to conflicts never getting resolved.

There's no denying that there are Albanians in Kosovo who faced severe abuse and discrimination from Serbian authorities, but you know what? My wife and her family experienced the same when they fled for their lives from their homes in Kosovo AND METOHIJA in '99. The sad thing is that everyone focuses on one side of the story and one "set" of victims. What's even worse, those responsible for all that abuse will most likely never stand trial and be punished for what they did.

You are right. I mean, in my response to one-sided comment, I have also done the same. I agree with you, no one in Kosovo just woke up and decided to fight with someone who is far more heavily armed.

More than that, it is just plainly wrong to put all these eggs in the same basket. School shooting in Serbia is unheard of, something that was until May, 3rd considered impossible. We have mass shootings. I honestly don't remember when was the last one, but I think years passed (if we don't count one in Cetinje, Montenegro). How tragic and shocking the school shooting was is proven at how rattled the entire system is. 

That is why posting what is happening in Kosovo in this thread as some proof of Serbian's violent nature is so wrong. Those two issues are completely separate and they cannot be connected. No more than Jan. 6th insurrection and any of the school shootings in USA. 

 

[Padraig]

It is definitely very difficult for somebody outside of the Serbia (and other former Yugoslavian states) to offer a considered response on what is going on there.  War zones or former war zones are complicated.  And grief lasts a long time.

My mind will always turn to Northern Ireland when it comes to these sort of topics but even there, i'm still one step away from that former conflict zone.  But I can see that trying to strip the layers of hurt and pain out of that conflict is brutal work.  Even 25 years after more or less peace.

Kosovo was always tied up with what happened before it in Croatia and particularly Bosnia.  At least, that was the feeling outside that region.  It definitely influenced the response and still does.  Mistakes were made in Bosnia, which ensured that other mistakes were made relating to Kosovo.

I'm not sure how a solution will be found there.  EU membership would partly remove the border question but both places are a long way from joining the EU.

[baxus]

24 minutes ago, Padraig said:

It is definitely very difficult for somebody outside of the Serbia (and other former Yugoslavian states) to offer a considered response on what is going on there.  War zones or former war zones are complicated.  And grief lasts a long time.

That's why we have discussions, to ask questions and offer some insight, look at issues from different points of view and try to find something as close as possible to objective truth.

 

25 minutes ago, Padraig said:

I'm not sure how a solution will be found there.  EU membership would partly remove the border question but both places are a long way from joining the EU.

This is not a thread to talk about the "solution" for Kosovo, one way or another. I'm tired of that topic, given how much of my life it has consumed through media and politics. If anyone feels like talking about that, please start a different thread. If that means this thread dies out, then it dies out.

[Zorral]

6 hours ago, Mladen said:

More than that, it is just plainly wrong to put all these eggs in the same basket. School shooting in Serbia is unheard of, something that was until May, 3rd considered impossible. We have mass shootings. I honestly don't remember when was the last one, but I think years passed (if we don't count one in Cetinje, Montenegro). How tragic and shocking the school shooting was is proven at how rattled the entire system is.

I am reporting here what I've seen -- and there's very little to no coveraqe of this region anywhere else than from where I link from.  I put these things here in hopes that I might learn more.

I apologize for the offense.  As it's offensive I will try to ignore the region and its peoples.

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Zorral

[Mladen]

On 6/9/2023 at 7:51 PM, Zorral said:

I am reporting here what I've seen -- and there's very little to no coveraqe of this region anywhere else than from where I link from.  I put these things here in hopes that I might learn more.

I apologize for the offense.  As it's offensive I will try to ignore the region and its peoples.

Well, Serbia hardly influences American politics or society (save perhaps who will win the NBA championship ) which is why there isn't a lot of coverage in US media. 

The school shooting was something that truly rattled everyone in the country. And given the challenges Serbian society has faced the past several decades, one must understand that we are not easily shaken. But, it does seem like the tragedy opened a lot of issues about culture of violence (which does exist, only it cannot be related to Kosovo issue), political and cultural devastation and IMO, most importantly, the mental health of the entire nation. 

Unfortunately, the protests against the current government are like exercise in dissipating energy. People are not thrilled with the opposition leaders, and if deposing egomaniacs in recent Balkan history have taught us anything, it is that system is not so easily changed. These are the protests against entire system that was created, but I doubt it will bring any changes, as the person controlling the country is fully aware he has no real political competition.

Now, Serbia may look like Wild, Wild West, but I think a lot of foreigners are actually surprised at how relatively tame and safe Serbia is. There's a TikTok account of an African-American woman from States who came to Serbia ad decided to stay because she never experienced racism here. I can't tell how many times I doubted her story, especially having in mind protests against Syrian refugees, but she seems genuine. I also have some foreign friends who live and work in Serbia, they love it. For all our problems, Serbia (like many Balkan countries) is actually a good place. I suppose it originates from communist Yugoslavia, when the country was member of Non-Aligned Movement and there were always foreign students and young people coming from African countries and eventually staying here. This is a country of truly open, welcoming people. 

Yes, we went through a decade-long horror and I will be the first to admit that many individuals of power at the time in Serbia had taken part in it. Nor would I ever support any war criminal just because he is of my people. But, it is good to remember that we are speaking of individuals. The same individuals whose children were accepted at European schools and universities, while most of their countrymen never got the chance to go outside the country. It is perhaps difficult for us to understand how 1990s happened to Yugoslavia and how few evil men could have led entire nations into civil war, but between modest technological development and propaganda working 24/7 with even some elements of religious involvement, one can easily understand how thousands of young people were thrown into war, while the children of our dear leaders (Serbian, Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin - I don't discriminate there) enjoyed the hospitality of various European countries. 

I apologize for sounding harsher than I was. It wasn't my intention. But, Balkan countries are countries of truly great history and culture, some of them old 8-9 centuries, survived empires and two world wars. In WW1, Serbia lost half of male population. It is sad to be seen through the prism of what happened during the 1990s. And, while I am fully aware of the importance of those events and the wounds that are still hurting the hearts of many regardless of the nation and religion, as the time passes, I hope people, from all over the world, will get the chance to see the other side of us (in this case, Serbia). 

[Conflicting Thought]

On 6/9/2023 at 1:51 PM, Zorral said:

  As it's offensive I will try to ignore the region and its peoples.

or you could try and be better? and try not to play the victim when you fucked up.  what an inmature response

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Mladen said:

Balkan countries are countries of truly great history and culture, some of them old 8-9 centuries, survived empires and two world wars. In WW1, Serbia lost half of male population. It is sad to be seen through the prism of what happened during the 1990s. And, while I am fully aware of the importance of those events and the wounds that are still hurting the hearts of many regardless of the nation and religion, as the time passes, I hope people, from all over the world, will get the chance to see the other side of us (in this case, Serbia). 

I particularly appreciate this.  Which is why I am spending time trying to learn this history that was never taught or even referred to, generally, over here.

[3CityApache]

4 hours ago, Zorral said:

I am spending time trying to learn this history that was never taught or even referred to, generally, over here.

Really? Even the assassination of prince Ferdinand, the casus beli for the World War I?

[Knight Of Winter]

On 6/5/2023 at 9:32 AM, baxus said:

It seems to be the MO in the Balkans - we all try to present ourselves as noble Elves surrounded by foul Orcs.

This is one of most hilarious - and hilariously true - statements I've heard about Balkans in recent times . It does seem like most of the Balkan's politicians are participating in some kind of unspoken competition of who will tell the most sorriest tale of their own misfortune caused by their evil, evil neighbors. While I do take some solace in knowing that we're not the only ones, that other nations do so as well, it still pains me to see most of Balkan's political and societal leaders (as well as most of people) lacking any kind of self-reflection and trying to present their nation as ultimately noble and ultimately oppressed victim which suffered horribly at the hands of others.
 

5 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

or you could try and be better? and try not to play the victim when you fucked up.  what an inmature response

Zorral, right or wrong, brings something to the table in this discussion: asking questions, posting articles, arguing in good faith, trying to learn etc.

Other than this holier-than-thou virtue signaling, what exactly is your contribution to this thread? What do you bring to the table?

[Zorral]

20 hours ago, 3CityApache said:

Really? Even the assassination of prince Ferdinand, the casus beli for the World War I?

But that's OUR HISTORY doncha know?  Though, by now, most people here (meaning in the US)  under the age of 80 probably don't even know that.  You don't really think the Florida and Texas depts. of education, for a single instance, have any interest in US kids knowing anything about WWI beyond the US saved Europe's ass and USA YAY #!?b Though from whom USA YAY save Europe in WWI may be more than hazy, and how many kids do you think could find, or even start to look on a map, and find Serbia?  These people don't even want the US to support Ukraine, for pete's sake.

Some do have a good sense of the places though, due to being in the military and / or National Guard, and deployed to the region in the 1990's. This is what most of the US knows about it, if anything at all, those horrendous civil wars after the break up of Yugoslavia.

O, FYI, it's never crossed my mind to consider myself a victim of anything.  At least not here!   I mean, come on, really? A victim on this board? It's too well moderated for that. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Zorral