What if Renly and Stannis listened to Catelyns suggestion?

[Foreknown]

In A Clash of Kings Catelyn suggests a Great Council to be called and for Bran to tell his story and for the realm to know the Lannisters as the true usurpers. In the original timeline Renly dismisses her suggestion, but what if he had listened to her? For one wasn’t Bran apparently amnesiac about the event? I don’t think he would have been able to piece together that it was Jaime who pushed him out of the window along with the incest. So I’m not sure this would have worked in Catelyns favor as well as she may have thought. But who becomes king/queen in this scenario? Does Tywin attend? Would the reach lords agree? Would Daenerys be a potential claimant?  What about Edric and Mya? 

[Craving Peaches]

Renly wins, I presume. This is a Great Council, and he is amiable and well liked, hasn't endorsed a hostile, foreign religion, is a relative of the deceased king, has the backing of the Reach and Stormlands. isn't a boy king, isn't a separatist. The two other contenders, Stannis and Joffrey, have serious issues which would impede their success. In my view.

Of course this assumes everyone agrees to a Great Council in the first place.

I doubt Daenerys would be involved given she is on the other side of the world at this point. Maybe someone could put her forward as a candidate anyway but I doubt she would get a lot of support given she isn't there and last a lot of people heard she was married to a Dothraki.

[Foreknown]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Renly wins, I presume. This is a Great Council, and he is amiable and well liked, hasn't endorsed a hostile, foreign religion, is a relative of the deceased king, has the backing of the Reach and Stormlands. isn't a boy king, isn't a separatist. The two other contenders, Stannis and Joffrey, have serious issues which would impede their success. In my view.

Of course this assumes everyone agrees to a Great Council in the first place.

I doubt Daenerys would be involved given she is on the other side of the world at this point. Maybe someone could put her forward as a candidate anyway but I doubt she would get a lot of support given she isn't there and last a lot of people heard she was married to a Dothraki.

Ironic that in your scenario Renly wins but he was the one who shot down the suggestion in the first place. I guess he just wanted a quick and easy victory.  

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Foreknown said:

Ironic that in your scenario Renly wins but he was the one who shot down the suggestion in the first place. I guess he just wanted a quick and easy victory.  

I mean yeah, it was going to be a quick and easy victory. Also, I doubt even if Renly accepted anyone else bar Robb perhaps would agree to it anyway, especially Stannis.

[Hugorfonics]

35 minutes ago, Foreknown said:

For one wasn’t Bran apparently amnesiac about the event? I don’t think he would have been able to piece together that it was Jaime who pushed him out of the window along with the incest. So I’m not sure this would have worked in Catelyns favor as well as she may have thought. But who becomes king/queen in this scenario? Does Tywin attend? Would the reach lords agree? Would Daenerys be a potential claimant?  What about Edric and Mya? 

He knows 

Quote

"It was only a bad dream . . ."

Jojen stood. "I felt you. I felt you fall. Is that what scares you, the falling?"

The falling, Bran thought, and the golden man, the queen's brother, he scares me too, but mostly the falling. He did not say it, though. How could he? He had not been able to tell Ser Rodrik or Maester Luwin, and he could not tell the Reeds either. If he didn't talk about it, maybe he would forget. He had never wanted to remember. It might not even be a true remembering.

Stannis wins. Bran tells his story, Stannis asks Renly to produce Edric as evidence, it becomes a clear cut situation.

Tywin probably does not attend, if he does he's leaving early 

[Foreknown]

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He knows 

Stannis wins. Bran tells his story, Stannis asks Renly to produce Edric as evidence, it becomes a clear cut situation.

Tywin probably does not attend, if he does he's leaving early 

But that doesn’t guarantee Stannis wins the Great Council Renly was far more liked and would likely have all the storm lords and most of the reach lords to support him. As well as probably other lords throughout the seven kingdoms. Either way Tywin likely continues the war assuming the council doesn’t rule in favor of Joffrey. 

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Foreknown said:

But that doesn’t guarantee Stannis wins the Great Council

I'd give it like 99%. He may have to give concessions to Robb, but if Balon already made his move then maybe not.

3 minutes ago, Foreknown said:

Renly was far more liked and would likely have all the storm lords and most of the reach lords to support him.

Stormlords idk. They just want to make history, they're board. They laugh at Davos and the literate he surrounded himself with because it's a funny story and they're already busy. But if the story is true then it's pretty serious and a great council is, well, great!

Reach, yea probably. At least Tyrell. But, what's that gonna do?

6 minutes ago, Foreknown said:

As well as probably other lords throughout the seven kingdoms

I don't see why. Robb and consequently Edmure will vote in favor of the eldest brother, who the hell knows what Balon would do, Lysa is neutral/start wwiii (fine middle ground somewhere, allegedly lol) and Doran, he wants em all dead but I could see him backing Renly as he's clearly the dumber and easier to manipulate brother but Stannis is more about justice and a guaranteer of a dead Tywin/Gregor, so either way. But doesn't even matter Dornish spears? Are they even sharp?

10 minutes ago, Foreknown said:

Either way Tywin likely continues the war assuming the council doesn’t rule in favor of Joffrey. 

Definitely 

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis wins. Bran tells his story, Stannis asks Renly to produce Edric as evidence, it becomes a clear cut situation.

If Bran can tell. Otherwise Stannis has no chance. A Great Council is the equivalent of Stannis' claims going to proof in court. He needs more than his words to back them up. At best his evidence without Bran is circumstantial and flimsy. It also looks really self-serving. Literally the only 'evidence' Stannis would have is that the bastards have a different hair colour to the royal children. Alone that is just not enough. Otherwise people would suspect Robb, Sansa and Rickon of being bastards. We don't even know if Stannis has the book. He certainly doesn't have a confession.

47 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I'd give it like 99%.

I think you are being overly optimistic here. Incest aside Stannis has made some horrible PR moves by aligning himself with a foreign religion that is not only foreign but actively hostile to both native faiths in Westeros. This is a really big bad deal for Stannis. I mean he let them burn Aegon the Conqueror's own Sept to the ground! People are not just going to let that pass. Also, people can vote for who they like and think would do a good job, they don't have to blindly follow the succession which is really the only thing Stannis has going for him. I know many people on the forum like Stannis but most people in-world really don't or are apathetic at best. There is a reason why he had the least support out of anyone including Balon and had to steal his brother's troops. Stannis would most likely fail at a Great Council, assuming he even agreed to the idea in the first place which I doubt.

52 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robb and consequently Edmure will vote in favor of the eldest brother

Why? They don't have to obey the line of succession in a great council (presuming Stannis even succeeds in proving his claim) and why would they vote for Stannis when Stannis is opposing their secession from the Seven Kingdoms?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

There was no way in seven hells that Joffrey, Tywin, Stannis, Lysa, Robb, or pretty much anyone would agree to a Great Council idea. That's why Renly said no. To make such a suggestion would be a sign of weakness. Renly had the biggest army, the biggest food supply, and now he's going to try and settle the war with some big council where people decide the course of action? Everyone would be too stupid or too ambitious to see the sense in that kind of idea.

[csuszka1948]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Renly wins, I presume. This is a Great Council, and he is amiable and well liked, hasn't endorsed a hostile, foreign religion, is a relative of the deceased king, has the backing of the Reach and Stormlands. isn't a boy king, isn't a separatist. The two other contenders, Stannis and Joffrey, have serious issues which would impede their success. In my view.

Of course this assumes everyone agrees to a Great Council in the first place.

I doubt Daenerys would be involved given she is on the other side of the world at this point. Maybe someone could put her forward as a candidate anyway but I doubt she would get a lot of support given she isn't there and last a lot of people heard she was married to a Dothraki.

 

 

 

I think the plan wasn't to get everybody to agree, but for Stannis, Renly and Robb to work together to defeat the Lannisters and then call a Great Council. (Not that it mattered, since Stannis wouldn't agree, it was just useful to see Renly's mindset)

 

I have some doubts regarding the result if the goal is to choose a single king to rule over Westeros.

Stannis is not popular, but if Bran confesses the truth and Ned's letter (which Cersei has taken before it was sent to Stannis) is found, then most of the Northern lords and many Valelords and Riverlords are going to believe his statement and possibly back him. Backing the younger brother over the elder brother with the rightful claim during a Great Council is iffy due to the precedent it sets. 

 

However, the main issue is that as Renly himself told Loras, many lords joined him in hope of great rewards, and this necessitates winning a war, taking away lands from the defeated Lannisters and giving it (+positions in the small council and the court) to his supporters. If he won in a Great Council, he couldn't do this and would have very little power as King.

It would be foolish - or you could say, it would require for Renly to hold actual love towards Stannis - to agree to such a move in a position of strength.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, csuszka1948 said:

Backing the younger brother over the elder brother with the rightful claim during a Great Council is iffy due to the precedent it sets. 

But they've skipped over the 'rightful' heir in Great Councils before. Also, Stannis burning that Sept can easily be twisted into him being completely unfit to rule. King Jaehaerys promised that the crown would defend the Faith in return for the Faith Militant disbanding, and now we have Stannis, who is not just failing to defend the Faith but actively attacking it. People are really, really not going to like this.

[csuszka1948]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But they've skipped over the 'rightful' heir in Great Councils before. Also, Stannis burning that Sept can easily be twisted into him being completely unfit to rule. King Jaehaerys promised that the crown would defend the Faith in return for the Faith Militant disbanding, and now we have Stannis, who is not just failing to defend the Faith but actively attacking it. People are really, really not going to like this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stannis didn't burn a sept or a godswood, 'only' the carvings of the seven gods.

You are right that it still looks very bad, but did Renly know about this? I don't think so, and without it there is no way to disqualify him (by claiming him too young, mad or woman) and his claim seemed to be much more believable after Cat's statement about Bran's fall.

[Daeron the Daring]

I think it's obvious why Renly rejected it:

It was unnecesary and impossible.

He would've won a Great Council, but he didn't need it, because he had everything to grab the Throne faster, and easier.

But it's not like a Great Council was possible.

 

[Craving Peaches]

16 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Stannis didn't burn a sept or a godswood

True, I was conflating it with the sept that got ransacked after when Lord Sunglass got arrested, which wouldn't happen in this scenario.

17 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

You are right that it still looks very bad, but did Renly know about this?

It wouldn't be hard to find out, it was a public event on Dragonstone.

18 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I don't think so, and without it there is no way to disqualify him

Thing is people don't have to vote for Stannis anyway, and he is not very popular at all. It is not like they have to vote for him unless he's disqualified. 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

If Bran can tell.

Cat said he would. 

Yea why not? He's not Sansa. It's traumatic, sure but he'd be beside his mom and it's all about justice and retribution. I'm sure Bran would tell.

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think you are being overly optimistic here. Incest aside Stannis has made some horrible PR moves by aligning himself with a foreign religion that is not only foreign but actively hostile to both native faiths in Westeros. This is a really big bad deal for Stannis. I mean he let them burn Aegon the Conqueror's own Sept to the ground! People are not just going to let that pass.

Nobody cares. Some people, or person, like the high sparrow say they care. But he's about it. Davos kinda cared but not enough to do anything.

Plenty of Kingsmen fight for their king with the seven guiding them for example, or the northern clans don't really seem to care about the trees that Stannis is burning either. 

It's apparently not really that bad of a pr move. Westerosi are by and large pretty accommodating with different gods. They swear it by the old and the new

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, people can vote for who they like and think would do a good job, they don't have to blindly follow the succession which is really the only thing Stannis has going for him. I know many people on the forum like Stannis but most people in-world really don't or are apathetic at best. There is a reason why he had the least support out of anyone including Balon and had to steal his brother's troops. Stannis would most likely fail at a Great Council, assuming he even agreed to the idea in the first place which I doubt.

With the evidence presented it's apparent Stannis is in the right. To vote against him is to vote against justice. Choosing anyone besides Stannis is choosing war. 

Renly has about as good of a shot as Edric Mya or Moonboy for all I know. Which is of course monumentally more then everyone else in the world. (Unless you wanna talk about Dany, but none of them do)

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I know many people on the forum like Stannis but most people in-world really don't or are apathetic at best. There is a reason why he had the least support out of anyone including Balon and had to steal his brother's troops.

Ok but that's not the reason. The reason he doesn't command Stormlords is because Robert wanted it like that, apparently as a slight. He thought it was funny. (It is funny)

Renly has been their boss for 15 years, what's changed? Only a rich boyfriend.

(Balon had the greatest support among his folk. Well, except that brother)

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Stannis would most likely fail at a Great Council, assuming he even agreed to the idea in the first place which I doubt.

If Renly said yea I think Cat could sell it. With Bran talking all this nonsense about the kingslayer it's a gift wrapped iron throne

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why? They don't have to obey the line of succession in a great council (presuming Stannis even succeeds in proving his claim) and why would they vote for Stannis when Stannis is opposing their secession from the Seven Kingdoms?

Because all they really want is no Lannisters, and something about northern honor which basically all boils down to screwing over the younger sibling.

.

What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?"

"The right," said Robb stubbornly. Catelyn thought he sounded eerily like his father as he said it.

.

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

However, the main issue is that as Renly himself told Loras, many lords joined him in hope of great rewards, and this necessitates winning a war, taking away lands from the defeated Lannisters and giving it (+positions in the small council and the court) to his supporters. If he won in a Great Council, he couldn't do this and would have very little power as King.

I don't think that's a thing 

[csuszka1948]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cat said he would. 

Nobody cares. Some people, or person, like the high sparrow say they care. But he's about it. Davos kinda cared but not enough to do anything.

Plenty of Kingsmen fight for their king with the seven guiding them for example, or the northern clans don't really seem to care about the trees that Stannis is burning either. 

It's apparently not really that bad of a pr move. Westerosi are by and large pretty accommodating with different gods. They swear it by the old and the new

 

That's ridiculous. 

There are plenty of pious lords - for example, Lord Sunglass who straight out refused to join Stannis and was imprisoned. The Faith has a pretty strong influence in the Vale and the Reach and the King is generally considered the defender of the Faith. When Stannis' actions in Dragonstone come to light, they would alienate a ton of potential supporters.

Also, Stannis isn't burning weirwood trees during his northern campaign. The moment he started doing that he would lose most support.

The Kingsmen do not care much, but that's because they are Stannis' core group of supporters. Davos literally tried to kill Melisandre, but he is also too loyal to Stannis to directly move against him.

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

I don't think that's a thing 

 

No, that's a thing (conversation between Jaime and Loras in AFFC):

”Renly thought she was absurd. A woman dressed in man's mail, pretending to be a knight."

”If he'd ever seen her in pink satin and Myrish lace, he would not have complained."

”I asked him why he kept her close, if he thought her so grotesque. He said that all his other knights wanted things of him, castles or honors or riches, but all that Brienne wanted was to die for him." 

[Nevets]

Bran isn't going to be much help.  In the quote, it mentions he can't talk about what happened; not with Maester Luwin, Ser Rodrick, or the Reeds.  If he can't mention it to them, why do you think he's going to be able to discuss it with a bunch of strangers, do of whom may be hostile.

The quote also mentions he isn't even sure his memory is real.  And once you're past Bran the unreliable amnesiac, you're stuck with hair color.  Good luck, you're going to need it.

I'm not sure who would attend.  Renly has a stonking big army and would probably figure he didn't need a council.  The Lannisters would regard it as a meeting of rebels and beneath their notice.  Even if Renly, Stannis, Robb, and a Tully attended, I don't see any conclusion coming.  Renly and Stannis would be lucky to agree on the time of day, much less who should be king.  At this point, it sounds like a waste of time to me.

[Hugorfonics]

7 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

That's ridiculous. 

It's a ridiculous world 

7 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

There are plenty of pious lords - for example, Lord Sunglass who straight out refused to join Stannis and was imprisoned

Yea! Fucking burns him alive, no one blinks.

8 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

The Faith has a pretty strong influence in the Vale and the Reach and the King is generally considered the defender of the Faith. When Stannis' actions in Dragonstone come to light, they would alienate a ton of potential supporters.

I don't think they'll really care. The faith doesn't seem so prevalent in the Vale, I don't think Lord Robert even has a septon (although I'm sure they do)

The Reach maybe but all they want is to stimy florent anyway. So theatrics 

10 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Also, Stannis isn't burning weirwood trees during his northern campaign. The moment he started doing that he would lose most support

Yea he is. Him and Mel torched some shit back at the wall I think.

Unless unforseen event transpire he definitely burning Winterfell and I doubt anyone, except Bran, will care

12 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

The Kingsmen do not care much, but that's because they are Stannis' core group of supporters. Davos literally tried to kill Melisandre, but he is also too loyal to Stannis to directly move against him.

Word. Despite popular belief Stannis commands loyalty that rivals the gods 

13 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

No, that's a thing (conversation between Jaime and Loras

Ah nice! Ty

[sifth]

The Lannisters lose bad, because the combined army of all three is just too much for them. I imagine Renly is probably killed by Mel, shortly before the great counsel is held. Stannis is voted king, because he's the last blood relative of Robert. I imagine House Tyrell is rather angry, but I'm not sure if they'd rebel or stay loyal.

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's a ridiculous world 

Yea! Fucking burns him alive, no one blinks.

Selyse has him burned while Stannis is away. When Stannis returns to Dragonstone, he has already lost most of his support and promptly loses much of the rest. The remaining men with Stannis are a relatively small handful of King's Men who will back Stannis no matter what, and the Queen's Men who are Rh'lorr fanatics.

Stannis's burning of the sept at Dragonstone prompts the Rambtons to take up arms to defend the sept and the Sunglasses to abandon Stannis's cause. This at a time when Stannis's supporters are few in number.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Unless unforseen event transpire he definitely burning Winterfell and I doubt anyone, except Bran, will care

Knowing that he would be made to burn the godswood was literally a major factor in Jon's declining of Stannis's offer to make him lord of Winterfell.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't think they'll really care. The faith doesn't seem so prevalent in the Vale, I don't think Lord Robert even has a septon (although I'm sure they do)

There was a (fat) septon there, but we didn't know his name. Later, Littlefinger (or Lysa) seems to have sacked him. Realistically we would expect the Vale, being the most Andalised of the Seven Kingdoms, to be one of the kingdoms where the faith of the Seven is taken most seriously.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. Despite popular belief Stannis commands loyalty that rivals the gods

From a very small number of people, who have swallowed the Kool-Aid. Of the nine kings we've seen in action in Westeros so far (Robert, Joffrey, Renly, Stannis, Robb, Balon, Mance, Tommen, Aegon) Stannis has commanded less support than any of them bar Aegon, and I fully expect Aegon to overtake him in the first couple of chapters of TWoW.

Stannis's religion might not be enough to put off his diehard supporters, but it's a massive problem in picking up supporters in the first place. I think it's a mistake to ignore Stannis's weird, hostile foreign religion when considering his popularity, and in particular his (or his followers') propensity to make human sacrifices of loyal lords who happen to follow the "wrong" religion; indeed, I think, it's a mistake to underrate the importance of religion in Westerosi society at all.