If Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth…

[Nevets]

I am very skeptical of the idea that Lem was part of Beric's crew.  I think his wife and daughter were killed by Lannisters, and that is why he is in the BwB.  None of which prevents him from being Richard Lonmouth.

Given his previous attachment to Rhaegar I think it is most likely he was on the Targaryen side.  He could have decided to remain in the Riverlands, and give himself a new life.  Perhaps as a guardsman, or maybe an artisan or farmer.  I think it's pretty clear that Lem has military training and probably experience.  He seems to know what he's doing.  So his being Richard Lonmouth is definitely a possibility.

[Mourning Star]

22 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think I already spelled that out in my initial post above.  I think he could be the bastard cousin of Lord Darry that was referenced in the end of ACOK.  

I asked who you thought Lonmouth was, not Lem.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I asked who you thought Lonmouth was, not Lem.

I’m not sure I understand the question.  Lonmouth is Lonmouth.  Unless you are asking where his “alias” is during the current story.  If so, the question I have is why does Lonmouth have to appear during the current story?  It’s not like he’s mentioned very much during the story as a whole.  For all we know, Lonmouth is long dead.  Or maybe we’ll run into him in the next book.

I guess I can ask the same question of you.  A Darry bastard who survived the razing of Darry, was mentioned in ACOK, if not Lem, then who is this Darry bastard?

Personally, I think based on the circumstances, it’s much more likely that Lem would fit the bill of the missing Darry bastard then he would fit the bill of the Rhaegar’s former squire.

All you really have to hang your hat on is some parallel symbolism.  My problem with that, is GRRM has repeatedly paired symbolism with multiple characters throughout the book.  He has paired characters using symbolism, North and South of the Wall, and characters from the present and the past.

I’ve seen people theorize that Qhorin Halfhand is really Arthur Dayne, based on nothing but parallel symbolism between the two characters.  While I think GRRM does intentionally creates these parallels, I don’t think it’s necessarily to imply that the characters are hidden aliases of each other.

Here we have a character Lem, who associates himself with “lowborn scum” in contrast to how he sees Beric Dondarrion, who is highborn.  That’s not consistent with Lem being Ser Richard Lonmouth, former squire to Rhaegar Targaryen.  However, that could be consistent with a bastard child of one of the Darry brothers. 

Lem is in a group of people many of whom came together because they had recently lost loved ones to the marauders let loose on the Riverlands by the Lannisters.  The loss on his daughter and wife, seems a recent wound, not a distant one, so I think it’s more probable that they were killed in the recent war in the Riverlands.  Once again, this isn’t consistent with Ser Richard Lonmouth, but could be very consistent with someone who’s family was killed during the razing of Darry’s castle.

I think it’s very likely that Lem’s name doesn’t come from the color of his cloak, despite Tom O Sevenstreams colorful claim, but is simply a shortened version of the name Willem.  My guess is that he may have chosen a lemon yellow cloak to pair with his already formed nickname, as opposed to the other way around.  And there also just happens to be a prominent Willem in the Darry family, whom an acknowledged son may have been named after.

My suspicion is that GRRM has created a number of parallels between characters from the BWB and characters up North.  I think he is creating a fire/ice duality.  Beric/Bloodraven, Tom O Sevenstreams/Mance, maybe Thoros/Tormund (based on the similar derivations of Thor/Tor), Stoneheart/Coldhands.

I think just maybe, Lem is an analog of Jon Snow, especially if Lem turns out to be the bastard of Darry.  Two bastards about to come into conflict with the Lannister backed enemies who have taken over their family’s House.  Jon is a warg a wolf/human hybrid, while Lem has taken on the guise of the Hound, a human with the “head” of a dog.  Lem is sort of the resurrection of the former Hound who was killed by the sword, Oathkeeper.  While Jon Snow, may be resurrected after being killed by Night’s Watch members who believed they were killing an oath breaker to the Night’s Watch.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Seams]

On 5/17/2023 at 2:37 PM, Curled Finger said:

Then there is that odd heraldry of skulls and kisses.  It's wrong, somehow.  When I pull the symbolism apart it looks like death kiss to me.  But why?  

I suspect it's a life kiss, with a connection to Ser Clarence Crabb and his woods witch wife:

Quote

"His wife was a woods witch. Whenever Ser Clarence killed a man, he'd fetch his head back home and his wife would kiss it on the lips and bring it back t' life. Lords, they were, and wizards, and famous knights and pirates. One was king o' Duskendale. They gave old Crabb good counsel. Being they was just heads, they couldn't talk real loud, but they never shut up neither. When you're a head, talking's all you got to pass the day. So Crabb's keep got named the Whispers. Still is, though it's been a ruin for a thousand years. A lonely place, the Whispers."

AFfC,  Brienne III

Most readers assume that Thoros has a magical power that even he does not understand, and that Dany randomly hit on the right formula for hatching dragons. I suspect that each of these magical people was able to accomplish their amazing resurrections because they were in the presence of others who held some of the power. Thoros did not have the power to keep Beric alive unless he was in the presence of people such as Lem - maybe of the whole BwB. Dany did not have the power to hatch her eggs except that Ser Jorah was nearby - maybe the Hightowers knew that House Mormont or Ser Jorah had this power, which is why they sent their lovely daughter to try to neutralize Ser Jorah's juju.

Joffrey says he is going to force Sansa to kiss Robb Stark's severed head. At Joffrey's wedding feast, Tyrion becomes preoccupied with his desire to get a kiss from Sansa. Instead, Joffrey is handed Ser Ilyn's sword with the death's head pommel. I suspect this sword is part of what causes Joffrey's death, but I always wondered why Margaery wasn't affected. Maybe it's because her touch on the sword is what brings it to life - she is the woods witch.

I think this all goes to the magic of gaining the power of the enemy you killed. Rattleshirt wears a giant's skull as a helmet. House Martell eats desert from sugar skulls after Ser Gregor's head is delivered to them. 

Of course, Sansa believes (falsely) that she has kissed Sandor. She has actually kissed Ser Dontos Hollard. My bet is that Ser Dontos will be "resurrected" as a result of this kiss. Maybe he will end up saving The Hound at some point. 

So Lonmouth had been loyal to Rhaegar and, if my literary deep dive is correct, allowed Rhaegar to suck up the power of his vanquished foes. When Lonmouth/Lem switched to the BwB, created by Ned but loyal to the dead Robert, his loyalty was in flux - he supports Ser Beric (who I think is a symbolic Storm King) and then Lady Stoneheart. But we know that Gendry is in the wings and gaining power among the BwB. Maybe the evolution of the BwB will show Lonmouth/Lem becoming a loyalist to Gendry, restoring some of the balance of power that existed during Robert's reign.

Interesting to note that Lem is the one who wears The Hound's helmet, last time it was shown to readers. Maybe he has "resurrected" The Hound just by using his helmet - kissing his skull. Robert chose The Hound as the winner of the Hand's Tourney, and we know that tourneys foreshadow the succession of "kings."

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Seams

[Curled Finger]

44 minutes ago, Seams said:

I suspect it's a life kiss, with a connection to Ser Clarence Crabb and his woods witch wife:

Most readers assume that Thoros has a magical power that even he does not understand, and that Dany randomly hit on the right formula for hatching dragons. I suspect that each of these magical people was able to accomplish their amazing resurrections because they were in the presence of others who held some of the power. Thoros did not have the power to keep Beric alive unless he was in the presence of people such as Lem - maybe of the whole BwB. Dany did not have the power to hatch her eggs except that Ser Jorah was nearby - maybe the Hightowers knew that House Mormont or Ser Jorah had this power, which is why they sent their lovely daughter to try to neutralize Ser Jorah's juju.

Joffrey says he is going to force Sansa to kiss Robb Stark's severed head. At Joffrey's wedding feast, Tyrion becomes preoccupied with his desire to get a kiss from Sansa. Instead, Joffrey is handed Ser Ilyn's sword with the death's head pommel. I suspect this sword is part of what causes Joffrey's death, but I always wondered why Margaery wasn't affected. Maybe it's because her touch on the sword is what brings it to life - she is the woods witch.

I think this all goes to the magic of gaining the power of the enemy you killed. Rattleshirt wears a giant's skull as a helmet. House Martell eats desert from sugar skulls after Ser Gregor's head is delivered to them. 

Of course, Sansa believes (falsely) that she has kissed Sandor. She has actually kissed Ser Dontos Hollard. My bet is that Ser Dontos will be "resurrected" as a result of this kiss. Maybe he will end up saving The Hound at some point. 

So Lonmouth had been loyal to Rhaegar and, if my literary deep dive is correct, allowed Rhaegar to suck up the power of his vanquished foes. When Lonmouth/Lem switched to the BwB, created by Ned but loyal to the dead Robert, his loyalty was in flux - he supports Ser Beric (who I think is a symbolic Storm King) and then Lady Stoneheart. But we know that Gendry is in the wings and gaining power among the BwB. Maybe the evolution of the BwB will show Lonmouth/Lem becoming a loyalist to Gendry, restoring some of the balance of power that existed during Robert's reign.

Interesting to note that Lem is the one who wears The Hound's helmet, last time it was shown to readers. Maybe he has "resurrected" The Hound just by using his helmet - kissing his skull. Robert chose The Hound as the winner of the Hand's Tourney, and we know that tourneys foreshadow the succession of "kings."

 

Always a fascinating and unexpected take.  Life Kiss is something to think about, thanks! 

[Mourning Star]

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m not sure I understand the question.  Lonmouth is Lonmouth.  Unless you are asking where his “alias” is during the current story.  If so, the question I have is why does Lonmouth have to appear during the current story?  It’s not like he’s mentioned very much during the story as a whole.  For all we know, Lonmouth is long dead.  Or maybe we’ll run into him in the next book.

Lonmouth not being anyone in the current story is possible, I just doubt it.

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I guess I can ask the same question of you.  A Darry bastard who survived the razing of Darry, was mentioned in ACOK, if not Lem, then who is this Darry bastard?

You certainly can, but I'm not sure we have any clues to base speculation on. Lem seems a little old to me to be a cousin of Lyman, but I suppose it's not impossible (and cousin can be a broad term).

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

All you really have to hang your hat on is some parallel symbolism.  My problem with that, is GRRM has repeatedly paired symbolism with multiple characters throughout the book.  He has paired characters using symbolism, North and South of the Wall, and characters from the present and the past.

And the yellow cloak which matches the color of House Lonmouth's arms.

"Dreams," grumbled Lem Lemoncloak, "what good are dreams? Fish women and drowned crows. I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?"
"The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now."

Parallel symbolism and physical evidence together make for a stronger case, in my opinion, than you seem to be suggesting.

A skin of wine for my dreams, and for my news a kiss from the great oaf in the yellow cloak." The little woman cackled. "Aye, a sloppy kiss, a bit of tongue. It has been too long, too long. His mouth will taste of lemons, and mine of bones. I am too old."

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’ve seen people theorize that Qhorin Halfhand is really Arthur Dayne, based on nothing but parallel symbolism between the two characters.  While I think GRRM does intentionally creates these parallels, I don’t think it’s necessarily to imply that the characters are hidden aliases of each other.

Ok, but there are also very clearly multiple characters in the story with false identities and hidden pasts, so I think it's more helpful to discuss the topic at hand than compare to random other characters/theories.

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Here we have a character Lem, who associates himself with “lowborn scum” in contrast to how he sees Beric Dondarrion, who is highborn.

Does he?

"We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don't think it'll be like Tom's fool songs neither. You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you'll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate."

Because it reads to me like a pretty obvious caveat here. 

Beric, Edric, and Lem appear would seem to me to be the only nobles among them.

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

That’s not consistent with Lem being Ser Richard Lonmouth, former squire to Rhaegar Targaryen.  However, that could be consistent with a bastard child of one of the Darry brothers. 

Clearly I disagree.

This is a large well armed man with calloused hands who knows how to fight. I think it likely he was knight even before the Brotherhood Without Banners was formed and they were all knighted.

And of course the most obvious and remarkable thing he has, the cloak.

We see nobles dress in their house colors, and a nice great cloak is a mark of nobility right from the prologue of Game of Thrones.

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Lem is in a group of people many of whom came together because they had recently lost loved ones to the marauders let loose on the Riverlands by the Lannisters.

The Wikki/App claim Lem came with Beric from King's Landing... for whatever that is worth.

I'm not sure I see any evidence that Lem is from the Riverlands.

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 The loss on his daughter and wife, seems a recent wound, not a distant one, so I think it’s more probable that they were killed in the recent war in the Riverlands.  Once again, this isn’t consistent with Ser Richard Lonmouth, but could be very consistent with someone who’s family was killed during the razing of Darry’s castle.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion Lem losing his wife/daughter was recent.

It seems to me more like something he has been sour about for some time.

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think it’s very likely that Lem’s name doesn’t come from the color of his cloak, despite Tom O Sevenstreams colorful claim, but is simply a shortened version of the name Willem.  My guess is that he may have chosen a lemon yellow cloak to pair with his already formed nickname, as opposed to the other way around.  And there also just happens to be a prominent Willem in the Darry family, whom an acknowledged son may have been named after.

There is a Willem Lannister too... but...

"Well, as to that, I'm Tom of Sevenstreams, but Tom Sevenstrings is what they call me, or Tom o' Sevens. This great lout with the brown teeth is Lem, short for Lemoncloak. It's yellow, you see, and Lem's a sour sort. And young fellow me lad over there is Anguy, or Archer as we like to call him."

Seems pretty explicit that the nickname comes from the cloak.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

You certainly can, but I'm not sure we have any clues to base speculation on. Lem seems a little old to me to be a cousin of Lyman, but I suppose it's not impossible (and cousin can be a broad term).

You have to keep in mind that Lymen’s father Raymun, was the youngest son with three older brothers all of whom died at the Battle of the Trident.  So a son of the oldest son, could be significantly older than Lymen was.  

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

And the yellow cloak which matches the color of House Lonmouth's arms.

"Dreams," grumbled Lem Lemoncloak, "what good are dreams? Fish women and drowned crows. I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?"
"The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now."

Parallel symbolism and physical evidence together make for a stronger case, in my opinion, than you seem to be suggesting.

A skin of wine for my dreams, and for my news a kiss from the great oaf in the yellow cloak." The little woman cackled. "Aye, a sloppy kiss, a bit of tongue. It has been too long, too long. His mouth will taste of lemons, and mine of bones. I am too old."

Nothing more than a cute theory that falls apart under sober analysis.  Sort of like the Mance = Rhaegar, or Qhorin = Arthur Dayne.

I think GRRM is more interested in the symbolism, kisses lead to death.  It’s brought up in the Arya chapter where she gives a kiss to the skull faced man at the House of Black and White.  At most he may be making a parallel between Lonmouth and Lem, like he’s made symbolic parallels between Rhaegar and Mance, or Arthur and Qhorin.

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

And of course the most obvious and remarkable thing he has, the cloak.

We see nobles dress in their house colors, and a nice great cloak is a mark of nobility right from the prologue of Game of Thrones.

Please, every Tom, Dick, and Harry in Westeros has a cloak.  Even Hedge Knights:

Quote

Later a hedge knight in a checkered cloak disgraced himself by killing Beric Dondarrion’s horse and was declared forfeit.

But if you want to be accurate, a Knight of Lonmouth wouldn’t have a yellow cloak.  His cloak would be yellow and black.  Their sigil is quartered with both yellow and black backgrounds.

For example, the Tully sigil is on a field of blue and red, and the cloak that Hoster Tully is buried in is:

Quote

They laid Lord Hoster in a slender wooden boat, clad in shining silver armor, plate-and-mail. His cloak was spread beneath him, rippling blue and red. His surcoat was divided blue-and-red as well.

Plus if that’s a clue leading us to Lonmouth, it seems that GRRM would have gone out of his way to actually have described Lonmouth’s sigil somewhere in one of the books.  Yet he doesn’t.  

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion Lem losing his wife/daughter was recent.

Sure seemed recent by the way he threw it in Brienne’s face.  It seems unlikely that their death dated back to the Sack of King’s Landing, and he remained unmarried since.  Especially since he’s part of a group that are all united in the fact that they have very recently lost love ones to the Lannisters.  Not a group that lost loved ones during the Sack of King’s Landing.  It’s much, much more likely that like the rest of the group he lost his wife and daughter due to the recent Lannister atrocities, almost all of which took place in the Riverlands.

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

The Wikki/App claim Lem came with Beric from King's Landing... for whatever that is worth.

I'm not sure I see any evidence that Lem is from the Riverlands.

I’m not particularly sure what the App is basing that on.  But if true it’s even more evidence, that Lem isn’t Rhaegar’s former squire, who may have been directly involved in Lyanna’s kidnapping.  Someone of that note would have surely been noted by Eddard Stark.

In addition, we know the troops that left with Beric Dondarrion:

Quote

When we left King’s Landing we were men of Winterfell and men of Darry and men of Blackhaven, Mallery men and Wylde men.

Nothing about Lonmouth, btw.  But Darry men are specifically included.  So presumably Lem would have been one of the Darry men who left with Beric.  If the App is true.

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

There is a Willem Lannister too... but...

"Well, as to that, I'm Tom of Sevenstreams, but Tom Sevenstrings is what they call me, or Tom o' Sevens. This great lout with the brown teeth is Lem, short for Lemoncloak. It's yellow, you see, and Lem's a sour sort. And young fellow me lad over there is Anguy, or Archer as we like to call him."

Seems pretty explicit that the nickname comes from the cloak.

Lol: 

Quote

Singers lied for their living, after all.

Surely you know by now that the version that singers give of events are not to be trusted.  For Tom, it makes a better story that Lem is named after his cloak, than the mundane explanation that it’s merely the shortened version of his full name, Willem.  

In the Sworn Sword, Duncan has to train a group of peasants.  In the group is two Wills, and a Lem.  My guess is that all three were named after a Willem.  Some went with Will and one went with Lem.  

And once again this points back to GRRM’s main inspiration behind the BWB.  Robin Hood and his Merry Men.  One of the merry men was Will Scarlet, known for his scarlet cloak.  So we have Will short for William, and his assumed last name was Scarlet after his cloak.  And then we have Lem, short for Willem and his assumed name Lemoncloak taken from his yellow cloak.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Nevets]

@Frey family reunion The bastard of Darry has been mentioned once, in passing.  I doubt any readers are even aware he exists.  I'm more familiar with minor characters than most, and I had to look him up.  Lonmouth has been mentioned multiple times as a close friend to Rhaegar.  I don't necessarily believe he's Lem, but he makes a lot better candidate than someone no one has ever heard of.

[Frey family reunion]

15 minutes ago, Nevets said:

@Frey family reunion The bastard of Darry has been mentioned once, in passing.  I doubt any readers are even aware he exists.  I'm more familiar with minor characters than most, and I had to look him up.  Lonmouth has been mentioned multiple times as a close friend to Rhaegar.  I don't necessarily believe he's Lem, but he makes a lot better candidate than someone no one has ever heard of.

Lonmouth has been mentioned once by Selmy.  And once in the Worldbook.  

The question is why bring up the fact that there is a surviving Darry bastard at all?  Why not simply say that the entire House has been wiped out?  And then soon after that fact is mentioned (end of ACOK), we are introduced to Lem Lemoncloak (beginning of ASOS).  Then in the next book, GRRM sets up a conflict with Lem (as the Hound) and Strongboar who pledges to the the last female Darry that he will kill the Hound (Lem) on her behalf.  Oh and by the way GRRM also has Lem as the one who hangs Mariya Darry’s husband.

So the reason that GRRM would want to create a surviving bastard of Darry would be so he could create further parallels between House Darry and Winterfell.  Two Houses that were decimated during the war by Lannister or Lannister backed forces.  Where the surviving maternal lines of both Houses were married off to Lannisters.

A lot of this I think has to do with Rhaegar obsession disorder.  The readers are overly consumed with every little tidbit about Rhaegar.  Perhaps more obsessed than the author might actually be.  So stuff with Darry, you may disregard.  Yet for some reason the author wrote a whole lot about the current goings on in House Darry.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Does he?

"We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don't think it'll be like Tom's fool songs neither. You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you'll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate."

Because it reads to me like a pretty obvious caveat here.

Sorry missed this bit.  If Lem was trying to exclude himself from “lowborn scum”, he would have said, most of them, excepting his lordship.  By saying most of us, he’s including himself as lowborn scum.  

Edited May 19, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Mourning Star]

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You have to keep in mind that Lymen’s father Raymun, was the youngest son with three older brothers all of whom died at the Battle of the Trident.  So a son of the oldest son, could be significantly older than Lymen was. 

Like I said, it's not impossible, I just don't see it.

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Nothing more than a cute theory that falls apart under sober analysis.  Sort of like the Mance = Rhaegar, or Qhorin = Arthur Dayne.

And once again making random comparisons to other characters/theories is not helpful.

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think GRRM is more interested in the symbolism, kisses lead to death.  It’s brought up in the Arya chapter where she gives a kiss to the skull faced man at the House of Black and White.  At most he may be making a parallel between Lonmouth and Lem, like he’s made symbolic parallels between Rhaegar and Mance, or Arthur and Qhorin.

I don't agree with the Mance/Rhaegar or Qhorin/Arthur parallels so this isn't convincing.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about Arya at the House of White and Black. Love and death are an old and obvious pairing for symbolism certainly.

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Please, every Tom, Dick, and Harry in Westeros has a cloak.  Even Hedge Knights:

But if you want to be accurate, a Knight of Lonmouth wouldn’t have a yellow cloak.  His cloak would be yellow and black.  Their sigil is quartered with both yellow and black backgrounds.

A hedge knight isn't the same as one of the small folk, and the point isn't that anyone can't have a cloak, it's that they are used as symbols repeatedly, and a high quality one is a hint that the character is not a peasant. It doesn't sound like even you are arguing that Lem is a peasant, so I think it's obviously worth noting the color of the cloak.

Also, we see plenty of other examples of a single color from heraldry reflected in a cloak.

He had bad teeth and a bushy brown beard, but it was his hooded yellow cloak that drew the eye. Thick and heavy, stained here with grass and there with blood, frayed along the bottom and patched with deerskin on the right shoulder, the greatcloak gave the big man the look of some huge yellow bird.

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Plus if that’s a clue leading us to Lonmouth, it seems that GRRM would have gone out of his way to actually have described Lonmouth’s sigil somewhere in one of the books.  Yet he doesn’t.

Fair enough, the knight of skulls and kisses is as close as we get to their heraldry in the main series.

This is a tale which grows in the telling after all.

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sure seemed recent by the way he threw it in Brienne’s face.  It seems unlikely that their death dated back to the Sack of King’s Landing, and he remained unmarried since.

Why? I don't understand.

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Especially since he’s part of a group that are all united in the fact that they have very recently lost love ones to the Lannisters.

Who did Beric lose? Who did Edric lose? who did Thoros lose? I don't think this generality applies to the men sent by Eddard from King's Landing, and the fact that he sent people not from the Riverlands to deliver justice seems intentional.

"When we left King's Landing we were men of Winterfell and men of Darry and men of Blackhaven, Mallery men and Wylde men. We were knights and squires and men-at-arms, lords and commoners, bound together only by our purpose." 

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 Not a group that lost loved ones during the Sack of King’s Landing.  It’s much, much more likely that like the rest of the group he lost his wife and daughter due to the recent Lannister atrocities, almost all of which took place in the Riverlands.

I just don't think this applies to those sent by Eddard from King's Landing.

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m not particularly true what the App is basing that on.  But if true it’s even more evidence, that Lem isn’t Rhaegar’s former squire, who may have been directly involved in Lyanna’s kidnapping.  Someone of that note would have surely been noted by Eddard Stark.

If he was in the throne room, then perhaps. He certainly wasn't named, but then Beric took men with him who weren't named.

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

In addition, we know the troops that left with Beric Dondarrion:

Nothing about Lonmouth, btw.  But Darry men are specifically included.  So presumably Lem would have been one of the Darry men who left with Beric.  If the App is true.

It's not clear to me how powerful House Lonmouth is, or even if they have their own keep. They may be in service to House Dondarion.

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Lol: Singers lied for their living, after all.

You don't think his mother named him Lem do you?

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Surely you know by now that the version that singers give of events are not to be trusted.  For Tom, it makes a better story that Lem is named after his cloak, than the mundane explanation that it’s merely the shortened version of his full name, Willem.

I don't totally hate the idea that Lem could be short for Willem, but again, if we aren't going to trust the story we are told about Lem coming from Lemoncloak then why trust that his name is really Lem?

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

In the Sworn Sword, Duncan has to train a group of peasants.  In the group is two Wills, and a Lem.  My guess is that all three were named after a Willem.  Some went with Will and one went with Lem. 

I'm not sure I see any indication that Lem is short for Willem here.

One was too old, two were too young, and one skinny boy turned out to be a skinny girl. Those Dunk sent back to their villages, leaving eight: three Wats, two Wills, a Lem, a Pate, and Big Rob the lackwit.

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And once again this points back to GRRM’s main inspiration behind the BWB.  Robin Hood and his Merry Men.  One of the merry men was Will Scarlet, known for his scarlet cloak.  So we have Will short for William, and his assumed last name was Scarlet after his cloak.  And then we have Lem, short for Willem and his assumed name Lemoncloak taken from his yellow cloak.

Except that isn't Thoros the scarlet one and Lem more of the Little John prototype?

Just now, Frey family reunion said:

Sorry missed this bit.  If Lem was trying to exclude himself from “lowborn scum”, he would have said, most of them, excepting his lordship.  By saying most of us, he’s including himself as lowborn scum.  

Not necessarily. "Most of us" doesn't indicate if it includes him or not.

But it's only a theory and so one can't expect to find any proof, at least yet. You are obviously entitled to believe what you want, I can only present it how I see it.

I can't be sure it's true, but I do think it's a pretty good idea which provides both character development/backstory and plot payoff.

[Frey family reunion]

On 5/19/2023 at 4:15 PM, Mourning Star said:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about Arya at the House of White and Black. Love and death are an old and obvious pairing for symbolism certainly.

That’s my point.  GRRM is probably more interested in the symbolism of skulls and kisses than he is in the character Richard Lonmouth.  (I think that GRRM is also making a bit of an homage to Geoffrey Monmouth and his History of the Kings of Britain with the name, something made even more explicit in F&B when he introduces us to Joffrey Lonmouth, and more on him later).

On 5/19/2023 at 4:15 PM, Mourning Star said:

A hedge knight isn't the same as one of the small folk, and the point isn't that anyone can't have a cloak, it's that they are used as symbols repeatedly, and a high quality one is a hint that the character is not a peasant. It doesn't sound like even you are arguing that Lem is a peasant, so I think it's obviously worth noting the color of the cloak.

Also, we see plenty of other examples of a single color from heraldry reflected in a cloak.

He had bad teeth and a bushy brown beard, but it was his hooded yellow cloak that drew the eye. Thick and heavy, stained here with grass and there with blood, frayed along the bottom and patched with deerskin on the right shoulder, the greatcloak gave the big man the look of some huge yellow bird.

Sure you see plenty of examples of a single colored cloak denoting a House, but only when that House’s sigil only has a single color in its field.  The Houses that have a field of more than one color, usually has the cloak’s of its knights, nobles and soldiers reflect each of these colors.  That’s why I brought up Hoster’s cloak, it contains both the blue and the red of House Tully’s field.  House Lonmouth’s field isn’t just yellow, it’s yellow and black in equal measures.  So if Lonmouth’s cloak was a holdover from him being a knight of Lonmouth, or a soldier of Lonmouth, then like their field it should be equal measures yellow and black.

Using the color of Lem’s cloak doesn’t prove your point, because I don’t think Lem is a member of House Lonmouth.  I think instead, the color of the cloak may have been chosen based on his nickname as opposed to the other way around.

On 5/19/2023 at 4:15 PM, Mourning Star said:

I don't totally hate the idea that Lem could be short for Willem, but again, if we aren't going to trust the story we are told about Lem coming from Lemoncloak then why trust that his name is really Lem?

Because I don’t see any particular reason that he would change his name by joining the Brotherhood.  I think he just is going by the nickname he’s always gone by.  When he meets characters in the Riverlands who seem to know him from the past, they all refer to him as Lem.

On 5/19/2023 at 4:15 PM, Mourning Star said:

I'm not sure I see any indication that Lem is short for Willem here.

One was too old, two were too young, and one skinny boy turned out to be a skinny girl. Those Dunk sent back to their villages, leaving eight: three Wats, two Wills, a Lem, a Pate, and Big Rob the lackwit.

I think all the Wills and the Lem were both named after a Willem, probably someone of note of that region.  Either way, it shows that this name was used apart from being derived from the color yellow.

On 5/19/2023 at 4:15 PM, Mourning Star said:

Except that isn't Thoros the scarlet one and Lem more of the Little John prototype?

I think they’re all pastiches.  Anguy the Archer and Tom O’Sevenstreams both have pieces of Robin Hood in their DNA.  Thoros could be made up of both Friar Tuck and perhaps Will Scarlet as you say.

I think Lem is a pastiche of Will Scarlet and perhaps Little John.  But the idea of a stylized cloak being reflected in the character’s name is a direct homage to Will Scarlet.  And if you want a more direct comparison, check out Will Scarlet as portrayed in the British series, Robin of Sherwood.  Same basic origin story, and same basic temperament.  And something that I could easily see being on GRRM’s radar.

On 5/19/2023 at 4:15 PM, Mourning Star said:

Not necessarily. "Most of us" doesn't indicate if it includes him or not.

But it's only a theory and so one can't expect to find any proof, at least yet. You are obviously entitled to believe what you want, I can only present it how I see it.

I can't be sure it's true, but I do think it's a pretty good idea which provides both character development/backstory and plot payoff.

In basic parlance it does.  When you say Most of Us, you are including yourself in the majority.  When you say most of them, you are excluding yourself from the majority.

But if you want to take a deep dive into the significance of House Lonmouth, and Ser Richard into the overall plot, let me suggest this rabbit hole.

We’re told Sir Richard is the Knight of Skulls and Kisses.  And their sigil reflects both skulls and kisses quartered in it.  But back in the day of the Dance, we’re told about Joffrey Lonmouth, and he is only referred to as the Knight of Kisses, what happened to the Skulls?

Is it possible that House Lonmouth only adopted the skulls later on, perhaps due to some sort of marriage alliance?

If so, the only house that we know of, that has a skull on a black background is House Manwoody, which just happens to be the Castle that is situated in the Prince’s Pass, the location of the tower of joy.  Is it possible that Lonmouth adopted the sigil after Dorne came into Westeros, and perhaps they married upwards, and took on a Manwoody bride.  And in doing so, adopted the Manwoody symbols on their sigil?  

If this is true then I wonder if Lonwood is a vassal to House Caron, which is situated to to the North of the Pass, and perhaps this might explain why the tower of joy was chosen by Rhaegar.  ETA: Look at the sigils of both Lonmouth and Caron.  Now take away the skulls and black background of of Lonmouth, and just compare the sigils.  Replace the Kisses with black Nightingales, and they have the same sigil.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Mourning Star]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That’s my point.  GRRM is probably more interested in the symbolism of skulls and kisses than he is in the character Richard Lonmouth.  (I think that GRRM is also making a bit of an homage to Geoffrey Monmouth and his History of the Kings of Britain with the name, something made even more explicit in F&B when he introduces us to Joffrey Lonmouth, and more on him later).

So first let me say that I think you have some great content here, so thank you!

I'm still inclined to think Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth, but I do understand the skepticism.

As for Geoffrey of Monmouth, I would agree that there seems to be a connection to House Lonmouth, and his works are almost certainly a source of inspiration for the series.

In particular the Prophesy of Merlin, and the tales of King Arthur.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sure you see plenty of examples of a single colored cloak denoting a House, but only when that House’s sigil only has a single color in its field.  The Houses that have a field of more than one color, usually has the cloak’s of its knights, nobles and soldiers reflect each of these colors.  That’s why I brought up Hoster’s cloak, it contains both the blue and the red of House Tully’s field.  House Lonmouth’s field isn’t just yellow, it’s yellow and black in equal measures.  So if Lonmouth’s cloak was a holdover from him being a knight of Lonmouth, or a soldier of Lonmouth, then like their field it should be equal measures yellow and black.

Yellow and black chequy would be even more Lonmouth, on that I agree, but I don't think it's a requirement.

We have cases like Lord Blackwood and his yellow armor too.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Using the color of Lem’s cloak doesn’t prove your point, because I don’t think Lem is a member of House Lonmouth.  I think instead, the color of the cloak may have been chosen based on his nickname as opposed to the other way around.

This is where I still struggle. It seems pretty explicit that the name Lem comes from the lemon colored cloak.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Because I don’t see any particular reason that he would change his name by joining the Brotherhood.  I think he just is going by the nickname he’s always gone by.  When he meets characters in the Riverlands who seem to know him from the past, they all refer to him as Lem.

Who seems to know him from the past?

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think all the Wills and the Lem were both named after a Willem, probably someone of note of that region.  Either way, it shows that this name was used apart from being derived from the color yellow.

It shows it's a name, or nickname, used elsewhere, but I'm not sure about the leap to it being short for Willem.

In the Dunk and Egg series, Eustace is constantly calling Dake by the name Lem.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think they’re all pastiches.  Anguy the Archer and Tom O’Sevenstreams both have pieces of Robin Hood in their DNA.  Thoros could be made up of both Friar Tuck and perhaps Will Scarlet as you say.

I see some of Robin Hood in the Brotherhood without Banners, but I'm not sure how much I can extrapolate from that.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

In basic parlance it does.  When you say Most of Us, you are including yourself in the majority.  When you say most of them, you are excluding yourself from the majority.

I don't necessarily agree with this assessment. "Most of us" simply means the majority of a group which includes the speaker, I don't think it means the speaker has to be in the majority. "Most of them" excludes the speaker from the group entirely.

For instance, "most of us are hungry, but I just ate," isn't contradictory.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But if you want to take a deep dive into the significance of House Lonmouth, and Ser Richard into the overall plot, let me suggest this rabbit hole.

We’re told Sir Richard is the Knight of Skulls and Kisses.  And their sigil reflects both skulls and kisses quartered in it.  But back in the day of the Dance, we’re told about Joffrey Lonmouth, and he is only referred to as the Knight of Kisses, what happened to the Skulls?

It's an interesting idea, I'm not sure the title "knight of kisses" tells us enough to know for sure the skulls weren't on the arms yet, but it could be possible.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Is it possible that House Lonmouth only adopted the skulls later on, perhaps due to some sort of marriage alliance?

Perhaps, we have very little to go on.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If so, the only house that we know of, that has a skull on a black background is House Manwoody, which just happens to be the Castle that is situated in the Prince’s Pass, the location of the tower of joy.  Is it possible that Lonmouth adopted the sigil after Dorne came into Westeros, and perhaps they married upwards, and took on a Manwoody bride.  And in doing so, adopted the Manwoody symbols on their sigil?  

Is this the only one we know of?

House Quoherys, the first Lord of Harrenhall after the conquest, seems to have skulls, but that's digging pretty far into the semi-cannon, and frankly doesn't seem super relevant.

Still, it's an interesting idea.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If this is true then I wonder if Lonwood is a vassal to House Caron, which is situated to to the North of the Pass, and perhaps this might explain why the tower of joy was chosen by Rhaegar.  ETA: Look at the sigils of both Lonmouth and Caron.  Now take away the skulls and black background of of Lonmouth, and just compare the sigils.  Replace the Kisses with black Nightingales, and they have the same sigil.

Just food for thought, House Plumm also has it's sigils on a field of yellow, and both House Plumm and House Manwoody are involved with the tale of Elaena Targaryen... not at all sure how (if at all) these things fit together, but there it is.

I will say, the arms of House Lonmouth remind me of the song the Donishman's Wife. Skulls and Kisses.

The Dornishman's wife was as fair as the sun,
and her kisses were warmer than spring.
But the Dornishman's blade was made of black steel,
and its kiss was a terrible thing.

The Dornishman's wife would sing as she bathed,
in a voice that was sweet as a peach,
But the Dornishman's blade had a song of its own,
and a bite sharp and cold as a leech.

As he lay on the ground with the darkness around,
and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer,
and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,

"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done,
the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter, for all men must die,
and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!"

One has to wonder if the brothers in the song are brothers by blood or by oath, and if by oath, which brotherhood.

 

[Daeron the Daring]

Lem Lemoncloak is Rhaegar himself. 

Since Richard Lonmouth was a good friend of Rhaegar, he got in his armor and died at the Trident, whispering Rhaegar's name, which can easily sound like the feminine valyrian version (Rhaenys, Rhaenyra, Rhaena, etc.) of the name.

Rhaegar, after this, decided to go to the TOJ, but Ned got there faster, Lyanna died, and so he became a hedge knight, plotting his return, posing as a poser of his deceased friend for reasons I'm not telling you, because my story is already too credible.

[Castellan]

Now that I have read a bit about this theory that seemed to come out of thin air I can see it has some legs. This character's defining thing is his cloak. A yellow cloak would be a fancy item - surely only the well off have clothes in difficult to dye colours, and its also impractical as a garment because it would show the dirt, which it is doing. But its plausible as a cloak in house colours. If its his own cloak, Lem isn't a former average man at arms. Its old and filthy and he clings to it, doesn't get a new one in a raid that might be warmer and in better nick. So given the emphasis on the cloak its natural to ponder what house it would come from, I suppose.

Making him have enjoyed a drinking session with Robert does suggest he might have managed to make the transition to the new regime more easily than some, and then to end up in the Riverlands. The interest in Richard Lonmouth being alive would be things he might know and people he might recognise, I suppose, and the sides he might take. He might know Lyanna was pregnant, but at present he seems far far away from meeting Jon and having a spark of inspiration on that subject.

Otherwise, it could be just a small flavour in the stew of ASOIF: look where this guy ended up!