If Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth…

[James Steller]

… then why did he abandon everything and risk death as an outlaw all in the name of Robert?

I don’t really understand why that theory exists, what it’s supposed to mean, or what it adds to the story or the character of Lem. 

[Seams]

I think you have to look at him in the context of the group of individuals that come together in the Brotherhood Without Banners, and consider the role of the BWB against the Bloody Mummers / Brave Companions as well as Gregor Clegane's band of Lannister loyalists.

I'm thinking on a literary analysis level, of course, trying to sort out the symbolism.

The BwB is loyal to Robert and they were sent on their mission by Ned, who was Hand of the King while Robert was out hunting / getting killed by a boar. Ser Gregor is loyal to Tywin Lannister, the previous Hand of the King. Iirc, one of the groups (Gregor) is pillaging the Riverlands as a punishment (supposedly) for Catelyn capturing Tyrion. The other group is supposed to stop the rampage and restore peace to the Riverlands.

The interesting details about Ser Gregor and Lem is that one was knighted by Rhaegar (I am not certain, but I believe that Ser Gregor was the only person knighted by Rhaegar. At least, the only one GRRM has told us about.) Lem was Rhaegar's squire, and that usually means that a person is working his way up to being a knight. 

So there is an interesting possibility around a symbolic line of succession. Maybe Lem is supposed to mature into someone who will displace Gregor? If both are acting as appointees of Rhaegar, what does that mean in symbolic terms?

At the battle of the Green Fork, we hear the rarely-heard voice of Ser Gregor. He gives Tyrion his orders:

Quote

 He was pointing men into position with his blade, a two-handed greatsword that Ser Gregor waved about with one hand as a lesser man might wave a dagger. "Any man runs, I'll cut him down myself," he was roaring when he caught sight of Tyrion. "Imp! Take the left. Hold the river. If you can."

The left of the left. To turn their flank, the Starks would need horses that could run on water. Tyrion led his men toward the riverbank. "Look," he shouted, pointing with his axe. "The river." A blanket of pale mist still clung to the surface of the water, the murky green current swirling past underneath. The shallows were muddy and choked with reeds. "That river is ours. Whatever happens, keep close to the water. Never lose sight of it. Let no enemy come between us and our river. If they dirty our waters, hack off their cocks and feed them to the fishes."

AGoT, Tyrion VIII

Ostensibly, the order is about beating Robb Stark's army. But everything has a deeper meaning in ASOIAF and I think this battle scene is extremely meaningful. Since the BwB is supposed to get Clegane out of the Riverlands, if Lem Lemoncloak is supposed to a be a literary foil for Ser Gregor, his role becomes very significant.

We are introduced to Lem at a moment when he and Anguy (a winner in the Hand's Tourney) team up to catch a duck for food. Lem wades into the river to recover the bird's body. He wants to serve it with lemon but there are no lemons. We suspect that ducks are connected back to the Targaryens because of Ser Rolly Duckfield in Young Griff's entourage (and possibly wordplay on Dunk in the Dunk & Egg stories). The lemon symbolism ties in with both Sansa who loves lemoncakes and Dany, who longs for a lemon tree. 

My guess would be that this is a turning point in the ongoing "Hold the river" battle that appeared to have been concluded at the battle of the Green Fork. The BwB at that point is headquartered at the inn at the crossroads (iirc), a major location for the clash between Catelyn and Tyrion and an interesting symbolic location in relationship to the river, which used to flow right past the inn but has shifted course and is now a number of yards away from the inn. 

Hmm. A new thought about the duck symbolism. We know that GRRM has used a number of children's games as metaphors throughout the books - part of the "Game" of thrones motif. There is a children's game in the U.S. called "Duck, Duck, Goose," involving a group of children sitting in a circle. One child walks around the perimeter of the circle and touches the head of each child, saying, "Duck," each time until the walking child picks one child and touches that child's head, saying, "Goose!" The child who is the "Goose" has to stand up and chase the walking child around the circle. If the walking child gets to the opening in the circle (vacated by the Goose) and sits down in it, the Goose child becomes the new walking child and goes around the circle to pick the new goose. 

If this is the basis for the duck symbolism, we should be looking at it in juxtaposition with goose symbolism. Which would probably bring us to Brienne at the Stinking Goose winesink just before she begins her quest to Crackclaw Point. 

[Note: I always get details wrong when I fail to fact check my recollections. I will make corrections if people can point out where my memory has gone astray.]

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, James Steller said:

… then why did he abandon everything and risk death as an outlaw all in the name of Robert?

I don’t really understand why that theory exists, what it’s supposed to mean, or what it adds to the story or the character of Lem. 

I agree.  The theory is strong on parallel symbolism, and weak on any coherent plot.  

My personal thought is that if Lem is indeed an alias, then he’s probably the Bastard of House Darry that Varys mentions near the end of ACOK.

This would explain why Lem comes from the Riverlands, and why he lost his wife and children to the Lannisters.  I also think it’s more likely that Lem is short for Willem.  It would make sense that a bastard of Lord Darry might be named after a prominent member of House Darry, Willem Darry.  

ETA: It would also be a bit of a parallel to Will Scarlet, who Lem Lemoncloak is probably modeled after.  Probably based on the version in the British series, Robin Hood, made in the 80’s, where Will Scarlet took on the identity after his wife was killed by mercenaries.

And in AFFC we see that Lem Lemoncloak may have a future conflict with Strongboar, who pledges to Mariya Darry that he would kill the outlaw with the Hound’s Head on her behalf.  If Lem was the bastard of House Darry then it sets up a conflict between the last son of Darry and the last daughter of Darry, which might parallel a northern conflict between Jon, the bastard of Winterfell, and Sansa the daughter of Winterfell.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

A man can’t change over the course of several years? Perhaps he saw them helping the smallfolk he had lived amongst for over a decade

[Curled Finger]

If this really is Lonmouth, there really could be some interesting information forthcoming from this character.  Could be he was with Rhaegar throughout Robert's Rebellion and before.  He may know more about the Lyanna situation than any living person.  He may know the actual identities of more than one person.  Thinking maybe Jyanna Reed, Knight of the Laughing Tree and Elder Brother?  He would have an insider's view on what happened at the Tourney at Harrenhal.  Lonmouth is specifically mentioned in Meera's retelling of the events at Harrenhal.  Could mean something that Howland Reed noted him and passed the info down to his kids.  

[Nevets]

5 hours ago, James Steller said:

… then why did he abandon everything and risk death as an outlaw all in the name of Robert?

I don’t really understand why that theory exists, what it’s supposed to mean, or what it adds to the story or the character of Lem. 

He mentioned to Brienne that he had lost his wife and daughter, presumably by Lannister troops (he doesn't seem to like Lannisters much).  That would account for him joining the Brotherhood without Banners.  He'd lost his family and had nothing better to do.

What he was doing beforehand we don't know.  He might have simply gone to ground after the Trident to avoid any possible punishment.  If he is Lonmouth, he could have information about Rhaegar and Lyanna, and possibly other subjects as well.

[Mourning Star]

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

… then why did he abandon everything and risk death as an outlaw all in the name of Robert?

I don’t really understand why that theory exists, what it’s supposed to mean, or what it adds to the story or the character of Lem. 

There are very few characters still living who were at the Tourney of Harrenhall.

Howland Reed (obviously) and Benjen (possibly-probably) could shed some light on the events from the perspective of the Stark camp.

However, Richard Lonmouth, the knight of skulls and kisses, vassal to Stormsend who drank down Robert in a wine cup war, and swore to unmask the Knight of the Laughing Tree, squire to Rhaegar Targaryen, presents the possibility of a very different perspective.

We do not know his whereabouts during Robert's Rebelion, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that his wife and daughter may have been in Kingslanding and died during the sack, explaining his hate for Lannisters.

It's not clear to me how Lem ended up with the brotherhood. The wiki claims he was part of Beric's party sent from Kingslanding, but sites the worldbook, where I can't find any reference to this.

There is also this quote, which begs payoff:

Lem, is that you? Still wearing that same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You're afraid all the piss will wash out and we'll see you're really a knight o' the Kingsguard!

Lemons also hold a special significance for those with a conspiratorial view of the books, and particularly Dany's plot.

Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too." She shook a finger at him. "Now, I suppose I could cook it with Lem's cloak, if you like, but not till it's hung for a few days. 

There is this comment as well:

"We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don't think it'll be like Tom's fool songs neither. You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you'll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate."

Presumably this is a reference to the Kingswood Brotherhood, which included Ulmer, who stole a kiss from Elia, and Simon Toyne, who rode as a mystery knight in a tourney where he was defeated by Rhaegar.

Ulmer, stooped and grey-bearded and loose of skin and limb, stepped to the mark and pulled an arrow from the quiver at his waist. In his youth he had been an outlaw, a member of the infamous Kingswood Brotherhood. He claimed he'd once put an arrow through the hand of the White Bull of the Kingsguard to steal a kiss from the lips of a Dornish princess. He had stolen her jewels too, and a chest of golden dragons, but it was the kiss he liked to boast of in his cups.

Humble Barristen was the winner of the tourney at Storm's End, and would eventually kill Simon Toyne:

"When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm's End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day.""Was he the champion, then?"
"No, Your Grace. That honor went to another knight of the Kingsguard, who unhorsed Prince Rhaegar in the final tilt."
Dany did not want to hear about Rhaegar being unhorsed. "But what tourneys did my brother win?"
"Your Grace." The old man hesitated. "He won the greatest tourney of them all."
"Which was that?" Dany demanded.
"The tourney Lord Whent staged at Harrenhal beside the Gods Eye, in the year of the false spring. A notable event. Besides the jousting, there was a mêlée in the old style fought between seven teams of knights, as well as archery and axe-throwing, a horse race, a tournament of singers, a mummer show, and many feasts and frolics. Lord Whent was as open handed as he was rich. The lavish purses he proclaimed drew hundreds of challengers. Even your royal father came to Harrenhal, when he had not left the Red Keep for long years. The greatest lords and mightiest champions of the Seven Kingdoms rode in that tourney, and the Prince of Dragonstone bested them all."

Edited May 17, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Nevets]

@Mourning Star The wiki cites the app not the world book for Lem being in Beric's party.  It is considered semi-canon.  If it says A world of ice and fire, it's the app.  If it says The world ... then it's the world book.  Confusing, I know.

[Curled Finger]

Robert famously pardoned members of Team Aerys once he was firmly ensconced as King.  Selmy and Jamie, of course, come immediately to mind.  Lonmouth is/was a house in the Storm Lands and we know from Jon Connington's POV that King Robert came down pretty hard on Griffin's Roost.  Maybe the the "traitors" to Robert's cause were more harshly punished.  The Wiki lists House Lonmouth as an existing house though Richard is the only person even close to present in the current story.  Then again, we know Robert likes men he can drink with and Lonmouth was said to have drunk with Robert at Harrenhal.  Erring on the side of caution, leaning in more toward some reprimand or punishment or even lack of forgiveness from the new management.    

Isn't it curious that no less than 2 of Rhaegar's inner circle were Robert's bannermen?  If Rhaegar was a politician at all it was to influence the young and absent Lord of Storm's End upon his return to his seat from the Vale.  Connington was originally penalized by Aerys for his failure as Hand, but it sounds like Jon is as stubbornly angry with Robert as anyone else.  Everything is Robert's fault?  

Then there is that odd heraldry of skulls and kisses.  It's wrong, somehow.  When I pull the symbolism apart it looks like death kiss to me.  But why?  

[Mourning Star]

32 minutes ago, Nevets said:

@Mourning Star The wiki cites the app not the world book for Lem being in Beric's party.  It is considered semi-canon.  If it says A world of ice and fire, it's the app.  If it says The world ... then it's the world book.  Confusing, I know.

So I have no real idea what to make of using an app as a source... but thank you for the clarification!

Assuming it's true, it does make some possible sense as both House Lonmouth and House Dondarion are from the Stormlands.

The interesting implication here would be that Lem may only have assumed that identity after Beric's party set out from King's Landing.

[Curled Finger]

44 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

The interesting implication here would be that Lem may only have assumed that identity after Beric's party set out from King's Landing.

That is an interesting implication.  Sort of minor Red Viper after Gregor sort of thing--vengeance for the smaller guy.  Nice...

[Mourning Star]

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That is an interesting implication.  Sort of minor Red Viper after Gregor sort of thing--vengeance for the smaller guy.  Nice...

Given that the Mountain being sent to ravage the Riverlands by Tywin was explicitly in retaliation for Cat's kidnaping of Tyrion, it would seem to provide a possible justification for Richard Lonmouth hiding his identity when riding against them, to possibly prevent retaliation against the Lonmouth family, lands, and smallfolk.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Mourning Star

[SilverGhost]

I like the idea of him hiding his identity to avoid problems for his family in the Stormlands. IRL many Free French officers did the same when the Germans and collaborator Vichy Government occupied France during WW2.

I could also see Richard being caught between friendship with both Rhaegar and Robert during the war, the conflict of obligation to a Prince he had once served as a Squire and his liege Lord as a member of a House from the Stormlands. The conflict of oaths and vows has come up more than once in the series. 

It is certainly possible that he was left burnt out by the war and didn't want to be around Robert after Rhaegar died and Robert got into bed (literally) with the daughter of the man who ordered the death of Rhaegar's family. It would explain why he went with the original group - they were going to bring justice to the Mountain and since it was sort of an open secret that the Mountain killed Elia and Aegon, well it's the perfect chance for Revenge.

As for what he says about his past -- well he could be lying. Or it could be truth. Neither prevents him from being Ser Richard Lonmouth.  

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

So I have no real idea what to make of using an app as a source... but thank you for the clarification!

Assuming it's true, it does make some possible sense as both House Lonmouth and House Dondarion are from the Stormlands.

The interesting implication here would be that Lem may only have assumed that identity after Beric's party set out from King's Landing.

Soo, Rhaegar’s former squire whom Robert knows quite well, as does Eddard, Jaime, Selmy, etc. is hanging out in King’s Landing and no one blinks an eye, and then he changes his name when they ride out to get the Mountain?    Why would he change his name at that point?  

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Robert famously pardoned members of Team Aerys once he was firmly ensconced as King.  Selmy and Jamie, of course, come immediately to mind.  Lonmouth is/was a house in the Storm Lands and we know from Jon Connington's POV that King Robert came down pretty hard on Griffin's Roost.  Maybe the the "traitors" to Robert's cause were more harshly punished.  The Wiki lists House Lonmouth as an existing house though Richard is the only person even close to present in the current story.  Then again, we know Robert likes men he can drink with and Lonmouth was said to have drunk with Robert at Harrenhal.  Erring on the side of caution, leaning in more toward some reprimand or punishment or even lack of forgiveness from the new management.

The new management that killed Rhaegar, and rewarded the family responsible for killing Rhaegar’s wife, and children.  Lonmouth is going to happily accept his pardon and become a leal Robert supporter?  It stretches credulity.

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

We do not know his whereabouts during Robert's Rebelion, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that his wife and daughter may have been in Kingslanding and died during the sack, explaining his hate for Lannisters.

Now, not only does Lonmouth no longer care about the parties responsible for killing his close friend and the family of his close friend, he apparently holds his tongue for years when the family of the King’s wife had his wife and daughter killed?  

It seems much, much more likely that Lem, like many of the rest of the Brotherhood, lost his wife and daughter to the Lannisters when the Lannisters razed the Riverlands.

Which once again makes me think he might be the bastard Darry cousin.  Since Castle Darry was razed by the Lannisters and they put everyone man, woman and child to the sword.

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don't think it'll be like Tom's fool songs neither. You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you'll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate."

So, Lem, who apparently most of the Brotherhood should know is Lonmouth, since he just changed his identity after they went hunting for Gregor, refers to himself as a lowborn scum when in reality he was of House Lonmouth and a squire to the former Prince of Westeros?

Guys this really doesn’t make any sense.

[Mourning Star]

27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Soo, Rhaegar’s former squire whom Robert knows quite well, as does Eddard, Jaime, Selmy, etc. is hanging out in King’s Landing and no one blinks an eye, and then he changes his name when they ride out to get the Mountain?    Why would he change his name at that point? 

Why would they blink an eye? We don't even know what side Lonmouth fought on in Robert's Rebellion, or if he fought at all.

There is no mention of him being in the Red Keep when Eddard calls on Beric and his companions, I'm basing the idea that he came with Beric from King's Landing on the wikki app reference.

It's even possible he was a member of Beric's party, as both House Dondarion and Lonmouth are from the Stormlands.

As I suggested above, one possible explanation was to prevent retribution on his family and their lands.

27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The new management that killed Rhaegar, and rewarded the family responsible for killing Rhaegar’s wife, and children.  Lonmouth is going to happily accept his pardon and become a leal Robert supporter?  It stretches credulity.

It's not clear to me that he needed a pardon, but what other option would he have?

If he was hiding in the Riverlands since Robert's Rebellion, and only came to King's Landing after the Mountians attack, I'd have to ask why didn't he fight?

27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now, not only does Lonmouth no longer care about the parties responsible for killing his close friend and the family of his close friend, he apparently holds his tongue for years when the family of the King’s wife had his wife and daughter killed? 

I don't know why you say he doesn't care. He seems to strongly dislike the Lannisters still.

We don't know what he knows, or what role he played in Robert's Rebellion, so it's very hard to talk about why he did or did not do things based on those events. I can only speculate.

While I see the case for Lonmouth being a victim of conflicted loyalty, I don't understand why you think he would hate Robert. It seems pretty clear to me he did not.

27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It seems much, much more likely that Lem, like many of the rest of the Brotherhood, lost his wife and daughter to the Lannisters when the Lannisters razed the Riverlands.

House Lonmouth is not in the Riverlands, but I can understand why his family may have been in King's Landing during the Sack.

27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Which once again makes me think he might be the bastard Darry cousin.  Since Castle Darry was razed by the Lannisters and they put everyone man, woman and child to the sword.

I still think Lem is Richard Lonmouth. Why would a Darry have a yellow cloak? Now if you want to sell the idea that it was a white cloak which has been stained yellow, I'm all ears! But, I'm not sure I see it.

27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So, Lem, who apparently most of the Brotherhood should know is Lonmouth, since he just changed his identity after they went hunting for Gregor, refers to himself as a lowborn scum when in reality he was of House Lonmouth and a squire to the former Prince of Westeros?

Most of the Brotherhood we meet didn't come with Beric from Kingslanding, those that did may have know who he was though. Or perhaps he took on the identity when joining the party and only a select few like Beric knew. Hard to say, and I'm not sure it really matters at this point.

27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Guys this really doesn’t make any sense.

Why not?

Edited May 17, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Frey family reunion]

15 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Why not?

Because this theory pretty much disregards the only thing we actually know about Lonmouth, that he was in the inner inner circle of Rhaegar Targaryen.  

Quote

“I make no such claim, ser. Myles Mooton was Prince Rhaegar’s squire, and Richard Lonmouth after him. When they won their spurs, he knighted them himself, and they remained his close companions. Young Lord Connington was dear to the prince as well, but his oldest friend was Arthur Dayne.”

Quote

Prince Rhaegar’s support came from the younger men at court, including Lord Jon Connington, Ser Myles Mooton of Maidenpool, and Ser Richard Lonmouth. The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince’s confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia’s uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. But the most formidable of all Rhaegar’s friends and allies in King’s Landing was surely Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

And most probably one of the ones who rode out with Rhaegar Targaryen when Lyanna was abducted.

Quote

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

Since we’re only given precious few people who were known as Rhaegar’s friends and confidants, it’s a pretty good bet that Lonmouth was one of those six.

So the person, who would have held some culpability along with Rhaegar for abducting Lyanna, Robert’s first and only love, would have simply been pardoned by Robert and everyone let bygones be bygones?  And Eddard as he surveys the throne room, doesn’t bat an eye when Rhaegar’s former squire is there?  

But because his cloak is yellow, that’s somehow proof that he’s actually a Lonmouth??

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The new management that killed Rhaegar, and rewarded the family responsible for killing Rhaegar’s wife, and children.  Lonmouth is going to happily accept his pardon and become a leal Robert supporter?  It stretches credulity.

 

You seem to be looking for reasons not to appreciate this mystery.  My implication was not that he received a pardon but that there was some punishment for possibly taking the Targaryen side in the Rebellion.  There is no inclination that Lonmouth or Connington were leal Robert supporters as Lord of Storms End.  It's clear they both had relationships with Rhaegar, not Robert.  How could they?  Robert only takes up his helm as the Lord of the Stormlands once he decides to wage war against the crown.  The crown they knew and trusted, not this bozo with a hammer and bad attitude.  

We don't know what happened to Richard Lonmouth, squire and companion to the crown prince of Westeros.  There is a reason we are being led to believe Lem Lemoncloak is this person or at the very least in some way connected to this person.  There are too many references.  This character has 2 stories going, a possible id and backstory as well as this new thing with the Hound's helm and the notoriety of the crimes committed while wearing the stupid thing.  Gads for all we know he could be the one to actually spit the words out to Gendry that he looks like Robert.  As he dies with the helm on and a tattoo of the house arms on his chest over the Mom one.  

[Ser Leftwich]

20 hours ago, James Steller said:

… then why did he abandon everything and risk death as an outlaw all in the name of Robert?

I don’t really understand why that theory exists, what it’s supposed to mean, or what it adds to the story or the character of Lem. 

Forgive me if my memory is off, but this was almost 10 years ago now, but I recall some of the genesis of this idea. As I was there, 10 long years ago at the advent of this!! (Queue ominous music.)

The first question was "why was Lonmouth so notably mentioned in the story about the Tourney of Harrenhal, if not to come up later again in the story?" So, the second question was "what did Lonmouth do in the meantime?," and then third, "Has Lonmouth been in the books, if so, who might he have been?"

Story elements elude to Lonmouth being friends with both Robert and Rhaegar, so it is reasonable to assume that he was torn about loyalty between them. Then, there is the loss of his wife and child, it reasonable to assume they were lost in the war. He has a clear dislike of the Lannisters. Once the Lannister get up to the old business of rapine and pillage, like sacking King's Landing, when he might have lost the wife/child, Lem/Lonmouth is pissed off and willing to oppose them again. Not necessarily a loyalty to Robert or Rhaegar, but a dislike of Lannisters.

The idea was, "Since Lonmouth has been presented as likely to have vital information from the past, who might he show up as in the story?"

It still seems simple and elegant as an idea, though, "what he has been doing for the last 15 years" is the biggest weakness in the theory. The story might give us more about Lonmouth or Lem that might make this nonsense, but it is still better than 90% of the garbage theories that people come up with on here.

[Mourning Star]

17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Because this theory pretty much disregards the only thing we actually know about Lonmouth, that he was in the inner inner circle of Rhaegar Targaryen.

I don’t think it does, and I’m not sure why you say this, it seems more that you assume liking Rhaegar means hating Robert, but I don’t see any reason this would be the case.

17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And most probably one of the ones who rode out with Rhaegar Targaryen when Lyanna was abducted.

I agree, and it’s probably part of what makes his perspective interesting. 

17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Since we’re only given precious few people who were known as Rhaegar’s friends and confidants, it’s a pretty good bet that Lonmouth was one of those six.

And potentially the only one still alive to share information.

17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So the person, who would have held some culpability along with Rhaegar for abducting Lyanna, Robert’s first and only love, would have simply been pardoned by Robert and everyone let bygones be bygones?  And Eddard as he surveys the throne room, doesn’t bat an eye when Rhaegar’s former squire is there? 

Has anyone mentioned Lonmouth being with Rhaegar when he kidnaped Lyanna? Even if we assume he was, how would Robert know that?

17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But because his cloak is yellow, that’s somehow proof that he’s actually a Lonmouth??

It is one piece of evidence, as it fits with the colors of the house and is a major identifying characteristic of the character.

If you don’t think Lem is Lonmouth, who do you think is?

[Frey family reunion]

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

If you don’t think Lem is Lonmouth, who do you think is?

I think I already spelled that out in my initial post above.  I think he could be the bastard cousin of Lord Darry that was referenced in the end of ACOK.  The last male relative of the Darry line, presumably the son of one of Lord Darry’s older brothers before he died.  I think he was one of the Darry soldiers that went to King’s Landing with Lord Darry, and his wife and daughter were killed when the Lannisters put Darry’s castle to the sword.

I think GRRM may be creating a parallel scenario with House Darry and House Stark.  Two houses that were destroyed and taken over by enemy forces.  

Strongboar’s promise to Lady Mariya Darry, the last daughter of House Darry and mother to the current lady of House Darry, to  kill the outlaw with the Hound’s head, will put Lem in direct conflict with Mariya Darry.

So we have a possible scenario with the last male of House Darry, albeit a bastard, in conflict with the last daughter of House Darry.  A scenario which may end up playing out in the North if Jon comes into conflict with Sansa over Winterfell.