Ned and Tywin: A shadowy reflection

[Angel Eyes]

My perception of Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister is that they're two sides of the same concept: subverting the idea that a good man should be a good ruler.

• Ned is a generally decent man, frosty behavior aside, whose decision to give mercy to Cersei gets him disgraced and killed, while Tywin is a ruthless man (Rains of Castamere, Rhaenys and Aegon, Tysha) who was nonetheless an effective politician for years in King's Landing (Ned lasts a year at most).
• Each has similar backgrounds: became friends with a future King and served as comrades-in-arms with them (as well as alongside a Baratheon), love their wives, had a younger sister who was betrothed to unsuitable men, and had kids who are mirrors of each other:
  • Jaime and Robb are valiant warriors who muse on their failures as heroes (Jaime kills the Mad King to save the city but is reviled for it, Robb joins a war to rescue his relatives but fails utterly),
  • Cersei and Sansa are beautiful women who had hopes of becoming Queen that were dashed by abusive relationships and also pick on a younger sibling (Tyrion for Cersei, Arya for Sansa)
  • Ned and Tywin each have a son who is crippled (Bran is paralyzed, Tyrion has dwarfism)

[James Arryn]

23 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

My perception of Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister is that they're two sides of the same concept: subverting the idea that a good man should be a good ruler.

• Ned is a generally decent man, frosty behavior aside, whose decision to give mercy to Cersei gets him disgraced and killed, while Tywin is a ruthless man (Rains of Castamere, Rhaenys and Aegon, Tysha) who was nonetheless an effective politician for years in King's Landing (Ned lasts a year at most).
• Each has similar backgrounds: became friends with a future King and served as comrades-in-arms with them (as well as alongside a Baratheon), love their wives, had a younger sister who was betrothed to unsuitable men, and had kids who are mirrors of each other:
  • Jaime and Robb are valiant warriors who muse on their failures as heroes (Jaime kills the Mad King to save the city but is reviled for it, Robb joins a war to rescue his relatives but fails utterly),
  • Cersei and Sansa are beautiful women who had hopes of becoming Queen that were dashed by abusive relationships and also pick on a younger sibling (Tyrion for Cersei, Arya for Sansa)
  • Ned and Tywin each have a son who is crippled (Bran is paralyzed, Tyrion has dwarfism)

Interesting. Ned was a good ruler for the North, and I think we’re a bit harsh on his time in KL. First the game was late in the 4th quarter when he entered and he didn’t even know it was being played. Second, his actual moves revolving around his knowledge isn’t what kills him so much as the things people he (understandably) thinks are on his side keep doing, Cat kidnapping Tyrion (then letting him go), Sansa choosing Cersei over him, LF whom Cat said he could trust…it’s fine to say he shouldn’t have followed that advice, but he had to trust someone, and given how little he knew the players, taking Cat’s advice makes more sense than just picking, say, Varys on a whim. It didn’t work out, but imo it’s only a little on Ned…yes, he should have taken Renly’s offer…but it’s understandable that he did not yet realize how little time he had left to act…no, he probably shouldn’t have warned Cersei, but that’s fundamental to who he is as a person, that’s not about being stupid or naive, he makes the same choice (or some version of it) if you give it all to him to do over. He was completely okay with risking his life for the sake of his honour if it was just about that. 
 

Also, I would not remotely compare Cersei with Tyrion to Sansa and Arya. The first is ~ psychotically abusive, the latter just standard sibling stuff, Arya generally gives as much as she gets. If Sansa actually is horrible to anyone it’s Jon, but she’s just following her mom’s lead there and it’s sins of omission more than commission. It IS weird she goes like the entire day of the fall of the Starks before even wondering about Arya, but at the time that was written she was probably still a villain in the making in GRRM’s mind.

Edited June 8, 2023 by James Arryn

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Interesting. Ned was a good ruler for the North, and I think we’re a bit harsh on his time in KL. First the game was late in the 4th quarter when he entered and he didn’t even know it was being played. Second, his actual moves revolving around his knowledge isn’t what kills him so much as the things people he (understandably) thinks are on his side keep doing, Cat kidnapping Tyrion (then letting him go), Sansa choosing Cersei over him, LF whom Cat said he could trust…it’s fine to say he shouldn’t have followed that advice, but he had to trust someone, and given how little he knew the players, taking Cat’s advice makes more sense than just picking, say, Varys on a whim. It didn’t work out, but imo it’s only a little on Ned…yes, he should have taken Renly’s offer…but it’s understandable that he did not yet realize how little time he had left to act…no, he probably shouldn’t have warned Cersei, but that’s fundamental to who he is as a person, that’s not about being stupid or naive, he makes the same choice (or some version of it) if you give it all to him to do over. He was completely okay with risking his life for the sake of his honour if it was just about that. 
 

Also, I would not remotely compare Cersei with Tyrion to Sansa and Arya. The first is ~ psychotically abusive, the latter just standard sibling stuff, Arya generally gives as much as she gets. If Sansa actually is horrible to anyone it’s Jon, but she’s just following her mom’s lead there and it’s sins of omission more than commission. It IS weird she goes like the entire day of the fall of the Starks before even wondering about Arya, but at the time that was written she was probably still a villain in the making in GRRM’s mind.

Well, the Catelyn trusting Littlefinger part is a definite problem. Catelyn tells Ned not to trust Robert on the basis of their old friendship, but says to trust Littlefinger because they grew up together. Anyways, most people wouldn't trust the person who had a crush on their current wife/significant other. With not warning Cersei, yes it's fundamental to who he is, but that still makes it a stupid move that accomplishes nothing but losing his head.

As far as Sansa and Arya are concerned, Arya's already shown to resent Sansa from her first POV chapter and Sansa enables bullying from Jeyne, she's an accomplice by inaction at best. Plus Tyrion gives as good as he gets (drugging Cersei in ACOK).

[Nevets]

The problem here is that if you look hard enough, are selective enough, and do lots of squinting, you can probably find commonalities between almost any pair of characters if you really want to.  But there are huge differences as well

Tywin's father was a weak ruler whose vassals didn't take him seriously and ran roughshod over him.  Rickard Stark was someone even Roose was afraid of, but still generally beloved.  Tywin is therefore probably more of a hard-ass than he might ordinarily be.  Ned is taken seriously, but also loved by his vassals.  They're even willing to fight, kill, and die for his young daughter, sight unseen.  Hard to imagine that for Tywin, even if he had a young daughter.

Tywin took up all the oxygen politically in his region.  There is nobody to take his place, even temporarily.  And he had no real succession plan.  None of his kids was groomed, or even trained, to take over.  The Manderlys have taken over temporarily, but want a Stark to take over.

Ned's kids love one another and generally get along and currently miss one another greatly.  They are also basically good people and solid citizens.  The Lannisters, not so much.  Even the best of them is a worse person than the worst Stark.  There is much dislike and distrust, and constant plotting against one another.  The Starks have nothing worse than sibling rivalry.

 

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Tywin is therefore probably more of a hard-ass than he might ordinarily be.  Ned is taken seriously, but also loved by his vassals.  They're even willing to fight, kill, and die for his young daughter, sight unseen.  Hard to imagine that for Tywin, even if he had a young daughter.

That really is the biggest difference between Ned and Tywin. Ned is loved, Tywin is feared. And yes I know that Ned is not a sap and Tywin does inspire the undying loyalty of Kevan and some other characters, but the contrast in their reputations is, pun intended, stark. Tywin depended on ruthlessness, fear, and diplomacy to stay in power. Ned did it by being a just man who earned respect through his honest character and being a charismatic leader who never asked men to do things he wouldn’t do.

Edited June 9, 2023 by James Steller

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

You can also point out the outcomes of their ruling, that enemies are swarming the Lannisters now that Tywin is dead whilst the North is seemingly fighting to restore the Starks.

[Craving Peaches]

I think Tywin's own father is supposed to be his mirror opposite. Ned also works but Tywin and Tytos seem to have more direct parallels to one another.

[astarkchoice]

The big difference is how they treat their kids.

 

 

Tywins relationship is deeply out of touch with reality. Jamie (as we see later) CAN use his brain so wouldnt actualy be a bad heir to casterly rock but tywin is utterly delusional about his ability to sway jamie from the kingsguard. He also recognoses how dangerously stupid cersei can be but again is convinced he can easily manage her and obviously tyrion hes itterly toxic with...cant see the amazing heir in front of him and seeks to berate him so h retreats further into wine and whores  and the cycle gets worse!

Ned by contrast has raises his lads right and while a little more awkward with the girls (as men would be back then) sees arya is different and thus gets the dancing master in