Connexion between Rhoynar water magic and blood sacrifce?

[SaffronLady]

Most ASOIAF magic requires some sort of blood sacrifice, but perhaps because this type of magic only exists in the background, I can't really find anything that explicitly connects Rhoynar water magic to blood sacrifice. Hopefully someone could show me the relevant quotes.

[Loose Bolt]

I assume that main purpose of blood sacrifice is to act as a fuel. Or no spell will work without some kind of power source. So almost certainly users of water magic will have to pay necessary price if they want to use any spells.

[astarkchoice]

I dont think there is any link

As with all fantasy magic  theres always a suggestion that blood or sacrifice always is necessary for the really powerful stuff otherwise a strong connection of some other kind is required

The fire priests of course deeply worship and have a strong connection to fire

The royhnar  similar with water and the children of the forrest with nature in general etc.

[Evolett]

There's no mention of blood sacrifice in connection with the water magic of the Rhoynar that I can recall. Perhaps, in the case of water wizards calling on Mother Rhoyne to rise, the magic is paid for by the ensuing "blood," i.e drowning, death of the victims, which is more or less guaranteed. Maybe Greyscale is a long-term "payment" for this type of magic. 

Readers have different interpretations for the Hammer of the Waters. I lean towards the Hammer actually being a case of water magic, coupled with earth magic and because of certain hints in the text, doubt the CotF acted alone. I think their greenseers included practitioners of water magic. In any case the blood-price paid for that effort was very high. 

[astarkchoice]

32 minutes ago, Evolett said:

There's no mention of blood sacrifice in connection with the water magic of the Rhoynar that I can recall. Perhaps, in the case of water wizards calling on Mother Rhoyne to rise, the magic is paid for by the ensuing "blood," i.e drowning, death of the victims, which is more or less guaranteed. Maybe Greyscale is a long-term "payment" for this type of magic. 

Readers have different interpretations for the Hammer of the Waters. I lean towards the Hammer actually being a case of water magic, coupled with earth magic and because of certain hints in the text, doubt the CotF acted alone. I think their greenseers included practitioners of water magic. In any case the blood-price paid for that effort was very high. 

Id say the cotf are connected to nature etc thus warging,  greensight, water and earth and various other spells are easy to them. 

The hammer was probably something done with masses of them..possibly some paying the ultimate price!

 

Side thought the children may be why valyrians backed off any invasion large scale of westeros, the warging power and green sight nicely counters dragons and valyrian future sight.....but obviously is less useful vs hordes and hordes of fanatic andals

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

There's no mention of blood sacrifice in connection with the water magic of the Rhoynar that I can recall. Perhaps, in the case of water wizards calling on Mother Rhoyne to rise, the magic is paid for by the ensuing "blood," i.e drowning, death of the victims, which is more or less guaranteed. Maybe Greyscale is a long-term "payment" for this type of magic. 

Readers have different interpretations for the Hammer of the Waters. I lean towards the Hammer actually being a case of water magic, coupled with earth magic and because of certain hints in the text, doubt the CotF acted alone. I think their greenseers included practitioners of water magic. In any case the blood-price paid for that effort was very high. 

I personally think the green men are a different species all together than the COTF.

[Aebram]

"Only death can pay for life ..." Some of the most powerful magical events in the story seem to require someone's death. My hunch is that the blood is more of a symbol, or perhaps a carrier, of the energy; but the actual source of the energy is the death, or perhaps the life force that is stolen from the vjctim. If that's true, then drowning someone in water can be just as powerful as any other form of sacrifice.

[SaffronLady]

On 6/23/2023 at 12:22 AM, Evolett said:

drowning, death of the victims

Come to think of it, flowing blood and flowing water have a similar vibe. I wonder if it's a reason why what little mention of water magic doesn't involve blood sacrifice - a 'flow of power' was already established.

[Curled Finger]

On 6/22/2023 at 12:22 AM, SaffronLady said:

Most ASOIAF magic requires some sort of blood sacrifice, but perhaps because this type of magic only exists in the background, I can't really find anything that explicitly connects Rhoynar water magic to blood sacrifice. Hopefully someone could show me the relevant quotes.

Hey, welcome!  A friend and I were discussing greyscale recently.  I'm not sure what types of examples you are looking for exactly.  There is a Prince Garin of Chroyrayne fame who led the revolt against the cities of Valyria along the coast of the Rhoyne.  It was a huge success until 300 dragons showed up and took him hostage to watch the retribution from a cage.  His name gets changed to Garin the Great later in the histories.  During this retribution the people of the Rhoyne are enslaved and killed.  Garen calls down a curse and the river floods.  As if this wasn't awesome enough, foul fogs arise and a nasty ailment known as greyscale is born from this environment.  This does meet the blood sacrifice requirement.   It is the only example I know of.   Hope it helps.  

[SaffronLady]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

During this retribution the people of the Rhoyne are enslaved and killed.  Garen calls down a curse and the river floods.

I know the (hi)story, but does the original text deal with the cause and effect between the death of the Rhoynar and Garin successfully casting his great curse? And how does greyscale tie into all this, an unintended side-effect of an overpowered spell?

[Curled Finger]

On 6/22/2023 at 9:22 AM, Evolett said:

There's no mention of blood sacrifice in connection with the water magic of the Rhoynar that I can recall. Perhaps, in the case of water wizards calling on Mother Rhoyne to rise, the magic is paid for by the ensuing "blood," i.e drowning, death of the victims, which is more or less guaranteed. Maybe Greyscale is a long-term "payment" for this type of magic. 

Readers have different interpretations for the Hammer of the Waters. I lean towards the Hammer actually being a case of water magic, coupled with earth magic and because of certain hints in the text, doubt the CotF acted alone. I think their greenseers included practitioners of water magic. In any case the blood-price paid for that effort was very high. 

In the case of Hammer of the Waters, do you think that the cutting of the weirwoods would qualify as blood sacrifice?  The trees do have that red sap.  It is fantasy.  Might be a stretch, but it was the whole point of breaking the land bridge, right? 

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, SaffronLady said:

I know the (hi)story, but does the original text deal with the cause and effect between the death of the Rhoynar and Garin successfully casting his great curse? And how does greyscale tie into all this, an unintended side-effect of an overpowered spell?

I'm sorry, I don't follow.  I can copy it in for you.  The story is all in a single place, step by step.  One thing absolutely leads to another.  It is like any other Martin legend, except that it is more cut and dry than most.  It is written to lead the reader to believe that there is power in the water and in the Prince and yes, this greyscale is a side effect of the flooding.  I don't think it was unintended.   I think it was its own counter retribution. 

[SaffronLady]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm sorry, I don't follow.  I can copy it in for you.  The story is all in a single place, step by step.  One thing absolutely leads to another.  It is like any other Martin legend, except that it is more cut and dry than most.  It is written to lead the reader to believe that there is power in the water and in the Prince and yes, this greyscale is a side effect of the flooding.  I don't think it was unintended.   I think it was its own counter retribution. 

I mean I don't know WHEN Planetos magic needs to be fed with blood. I have seen some YouTube theorist claim that the Rhoyne was the river of time and thus accepts promise of future blood payment. Which is why I never really understood whether it was the Rhoynar deaths that paid for the mother river to rise, or the future of Valyrians and their dragons drowning that made the spell work.

[Curled Finger]

15 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

I know the (hi)story, but does the original text deal with the cause and effect between the death of the Rhoynar and Garin successfully casting his great curse? And how does greyscale tie into all this, an unintended side-effect of an overpowered spell?

Gads, I'm sorry, yes.  When Garin is in the cage and people--that is women and children--are being enslaved--the men are being killed.  That is when Garin calls for the flood.  So that is your blood sacrifice in the Rhoynish men dying there 1st.  

[SaffronLady]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

the men are being killed.  That is when Garin calls for the flood.

Danke Schon. Looks like water magic also runs red, too.

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, SaffronLady said:

Danke Schon. Looks like water magic also runs red, too.

I apologize for being obtuse.  In rereading the entire passage it certainly appears that there was enough death and blood spilling to call up an ocean during these Rhoynish/Valyrian encounters.   I don't know that blood magic works like Melisandre performs it.  Kills someone and things happen.  I think blood spilled is retained in the memory of the trees, the water, the ground, wherever it happens and that it probably enough.  Although there is likely something to be said for intentional blood magic as well. 

There is a passage about the Rhoyne in The Long Night about their minor gods having to get together to sing a song to end the Winter.  Theirs is the only tale like this, about cooperation.  It's lovely and leads me to think the power in this river may not be naturally war like, but one of peace and harmony.  

That a magical disease such a greyscale would rise from this place makes sense.  This place wants to be undisturbed in the ruins of its horror.  

[Evolett]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

In the case of Hammer of the Waters, do you think that the cutting of the weirwoods would qualify as blood sacrifice?  The trees do have that red sap.  It is fantasy.  Might be a stretch, but it was the whole point of breaking the land bridge, right? 

Hmm. Thinking about it, no. I suspect the weirwoods (and possibly other trees) are sources of magic that need to be paid for by way of blood sacrifice. If they aren't the source, then they are amplifiers or mediators between the original source and the practitioner. Either way, like dragons, they "bring magic into the world," or assure its supply in the world. But weirwoods (and forests) have have suffered greatly in number with hardly any left. 

By the time of the Hammer, weirwoods had been reduced to some extent by the FM but there were still many more groves than after the Andal extermination, enough to help fuel a magical event of magnitude. To fuel the magic, they are fed with blood. The weirwood sap itself probably contains psychoactive substances that enhance paranormal abilities and I can also see it playing a role in sustaining life (as in Bloodraven).

It's possible some kinds of magic can be paid for after being performed. Take Thoros raising Beric for instance.  There is no immediate "death pays for life" in evidence. No one was slaughtered on the spot to make it happen.
Maybe Beric paid for his extended life with memory loss etc., while Thoros paid by wasting away. He feared a seventh attempt would be the end of him. Alternatively, Beric's lives could have been paid for "on the go," there was a war going on after all and both Beric and Thoros undoubteldy killed many enemies which could count as sacrifices. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Evolett

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

It's possible some kinds of magic can be paid for after being performed. Take Thoros raising Beric for instance.  There is no immediate "death pays for life" in evidence. No one was slaughtered on the spot to make it happen.
Maybe Beric paid for his extended life with memory loss etc., while Thoros paid by wasting away. He feared a seventh attempt would be the end of him. Alternatively, Beric's lives could have been paid for "on the go," there was a war going on after all and both Beric and Thoros undoubteldy killed many enemies which could count as sacrifices. 

This is such an interesting passage.  In AGOT we learn from Mirri Mas Duur that only death can pay for life. Yet, in the very next book, Thoros raises Beric by giving him a funeral rite that Thoros has performed many times before.  When Mirri tells Dani, "Only death can pay for life" it implies intention.  The story of Beric's first death and resurrection does not seem to have a death that was made with the intention of bringing Beric back to life.  

Did the death of Jinglebell, who Cat tried to exchange his life for Robb's while the massacre was happening, pay for her life?  Or something else, as it was Beric who gave her the kiss of life, not Thoros.  Me thinks there was something else going on besides Mirri Mas Durr's decree.  Perhaps the spilling of Stark blood, along with the blood of loyal Stark bannerman, and Cat's declaration of trading Jinglebell's life for Robb's triggered the magic?  

Thoros bringing Beric back, without intending to have always been a mystery to me, and still is. 

[Hippocras]

On 6/24/2023 at 4:03 AM, LongRider said:

This is such an interesting passage.  In AGOT we learn from Mirri Mas Duur that only death can pay for life. Yet, in the very next book, Thoros raises Beric by giving him a funeral rite that Thoros has performed many times before.  When Mirri tells Dani, "Only death can pay for life" it implies intention.  The story of Beric's first death and resurrection does not seem to have a death that was made with the intention of bringing Beric back to life.  

Did the death of Jinglebell, who Cat tried to exchange his life for Robb's while the massacre was happening, pay for her life?  Or something else, as it was Beric who gave her the kiss of life, not Thoros.  Me thinks there was something else going on besides Mirri Mas Durr's decree.  Perhaps the spilling of Stark blood, along with the blood of loyal Stark bannerman, and Cat's declaration of trading Jinglebell's life for Robb's triggered the magic?  

Thoros bringing Beric back, without intending to have always been a mystery to me, and still is. 

I think you are on to something here in that it is indirect.

Beric is not actually the only example of magic working by indirect sacrifice: GRRM never makes things so explicit that we can prove anything, but there is a very strong hint that Bran waking up from near death as a green dreamer, a warg, and a future greenseer was connected to Ned killing Lady. Ned did not intend it as a sacrifice, yet it was. It is relevant that he used Ice to do it. The sacrifice happened at the end of one chapter, and Bran opened his eyes in the very next.

In that sense the timing of Beric's revival(s) would be interesting to pin down. Who died just before? In particular, was his first revival connected to Ned's sacrifice? (also done using Ned's sword). Beric went to the Riverlands on a mission he was assigned by Ned, and while with subsequent deaths and revivals he lost more and more of his own personhood, he never lost that core mission of eventually bringing Gregor Clegane to justice. So regardless of whether Ned's sacrifice had anything to do with Beric's revival, it is certainly true that Beric's revival is tied to the mission Ned gave him, and that in turn is connected to the theme of a flaming sword (Thoros, then Beric, next....)

Beric basically "passed on" the force animating him to Catelyn's corpse. His gang, Thoros included, do not understand why, but he felt compelled to do it. This, while it does not count as proof, does seem to imply that Ned's sacrifice has something to do with it all.

However there are blood ties between characters that remain to be revealed, and which I suspect are also relevant when discussing blood sacrifice. In particular, more complete family trees in the future are likely to reveal that both Catelyn and Beric are female line Targaryens. The hint for this lies in the fact that Jena Dondarion would have been Balor's queen, had he lived, and that Celia Tully was meant to marry Jaehaerys II. While Aegon V was against sibling marriage (supposedly) it is very unlikely that he strayed all that far from the basic principle that the spread of people with claims to the Iron Throne via blood of the dragon needed to be reasonably contained. The engagements he arranged for his children were almost certainly to some degree of cousin. So if I had to guess who Celia Tully's mother was, I strongly suspect it was one of Aegon V's sisters Daella or Rhae. As for Beric's ancestor; probably Baela or Rhaena Targaryen, or both given the number of generations that have passed.

These blood ties matter in discussions of blood magic and sacrifice. It is not just the "King's Blood" thing. It is also the connection between characters that defines the level of intensity of the sacrifice.

[SaffronLady]

6 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

It is also the connection between characters that defines the level of intensity of the sacrifice.

Speaking of "intensity of sacrifice", does the emotional relationship between characters influence this intensity? I don't think JonCon and fAegon have much of a blood relationship, but imagine if fAegon had to sacrifice JonCon in some way.