Unpopular Opinions You Have?

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Another unpopular opinion, Hoster Tully is not as bad as he is presented, he did fuck up with Lysa and he lived to terribly regret the choice he made but fact is, Lysa left him to choose between the bad choice and the worst one, it's a damn shame Lysa had stillbirths.

And his actions in war are no better or worse than any other military leader in the series.

It's quite funny how everyone in the books focuses on how horrible the death of the Targlings was but ignore the peasant children being butchered with coldest nochalance, Ned not thinking about Mycah once while thiking nonstop about Rhaegar's kids will never sit well with me.

Few important people give a damn for the Smallfolk.

[frenin]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Honestly I see not a lot of difference with my scenario where he’s locked away, never to be heard of again.  It’s just that they’ll persuade themselves that Aegon died “honourably” at the Wall.

In practice, there's absolutely no difference that's the obvious true but it allows everyone to pretend no fundamental rights were ignored and they did not go over children bodies, they still did just took a detour.

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Hmmm ned has enough wards though and his existance as a kid would be enough for others to maybe wanna take the crown then rule through him!

At the relevant point, Ned has zero wards. Theon doesn't arrive until much later. Jon isn't a ward in the eyes of Westeros, but even so Ned doesn't seem to know about or pick up Jon until after the capture of KL which is when Aegon was killed.

[astarkchoice]

18 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

At the relevant point, Ned has zero wards. Theon doesn't arrive until much later. Jon isn't a ward in the eyes of Westeros, but even so Ned doesn't seem to know about or pick up Jon until after the capture of KL which is when Aegon was killed.

Fair point 

[astarkchoice]

52 minutes ago, frenin said:

-Dude, Osric Stark was elected as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at the ripe age of ten.

Their age is completely and absolutely inmaterial.

 

The Leaders of the Watch and plenty of Northmen also see it as an alternative prison, if an honorable one.

 

Ned stood over their assasinations not about sending them to the Wall, hell Ned considers the Wall and honor lol.

Why would he complain?

 

 

Why?

 

 

 

-does seem unlikely as samwell pointed out with some of the older texts and ages ......unless he was a token leader for 5-10 years to help resolve a tie breaker vote between a few contenders who refused to serve under each other.

-but not something a child normaly gets sent to

 

[astarkchoice]

53 minutes ago, frenin said:

Another unpopular opinion, Hoster Tully is not as bad as he is presented, he did fuck up with Lysa and he lived to terribly regret the choice he made but fact is, Lysa left him to choose between the bad choice and the worst one, it's a damn shame Lysa had stillbirths.

And his actions in war are no better or worse than any other military leader in the series.

It's quite funny how everyone in the books focuses on how horrible the death of the Targlings was but ignore the peasant children being butchered with coldest nochalance, Ned not thinking about Mycah once while thiking nonstop about Rhaegar's kids will never sit well with me.

Excellent point about hoster

 

The funny shit is with hindsight had he picked the seemingly worse option (let lf and lysa wed) the skinny little snake with almost 0 holdings would have beena huge boon for the tullys!! But then he couldnt have predicted lfs would become great with money and playing 'the game' (thus hed counterbalance edmure) and of course blackfish would have stayed....utterly fucking tywin and jamie up had they tried to invade on his watch!!

[frenin]

11 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-does seem unlikely as samwell pointed out with some of the older texts and ages ......unless he was a token leader for 5-10 years to help resolve a tie breaker vote between a few contenders who refused to serve under each other.

 

He was there for 60 years as  per the world book.

 

12 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-but not something a child normaly gets sent to

No but it does happen, there is precedent and those would not be normal times.

It's either killing him or sending him to the wall, there's no other choice once the rebels agree Robert is taking the throne.

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Another unpopular opinion, Hoster Tully is not as bad as he is presented, he did fuck up with Lysa and he lived to terribly regret the choice he made but fact is, Lysa left him to choose between the bad choice and the worst one, it's a damn shame Lysa had stillbirths.

And his actions in war are no better or worse than any other military leader in the series.

 

 

 

Honestly, I view Hoster Tully as really the average noble lord of his age (in ASOAIF). I don't think he is a particularly bad person, but not a very good one either.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It's quite funny how everyone in the books focuses on how horrible the death of the Targlings was but ignore the peasant children being butchered with coldest nochalance, Ned not thinking about Mycah once while thiking nonstop about Rhaegar's kids will never sit well with me.

 

 

 

Yes, I don't really know if that's an intentional double standard to show Ned's flaws or GRRM himself cares more about the Targlings.

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SaffronLady]

Targlings have a huge plot significance. Mycah, unfortunately, does not have a comparable level of plot significance. Unless Mycah is the Prince that was Promised or some other stuff like that.

[SeanF]

13 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Ned should have thrown a fit if Aegon had lived and been sent to the Wall. 
 

Aegon getting punished by being sent to the Wall for the sins of Rhaegar or house Targaryen is cruel. 

Yes it is.  Basically, Aegon’s choice (if he wasn’t dead already) would be to say his vows or have his throat cut.

Ned persuaded himself that the Wall is an honourable place to serve and die at.  After all, he was willing for Jon to go there.

In general, I think there’s almost complete callousness towards the fate of children, on the part of the upper classes of Westeros.  They treat their own children as pieces on a board game, and other peoples’ children worse.  Peasant children are of no account.

They’re an unpleasant bunch, in the main.  The best one can say for them is they’re better than Eastern slavers, who are gleefully sadistic.

Edited July 7, 2023 by SeanF

[astarkchoice]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

-He was there for 60 years as  per the world book.

 

-No but it does happen, there is precedent and those would not be normal times.

It's either killing him or sending him to the wall, there's no other choice once the rebels agree Robert is taking the throne.

-yeah id expect once he was old enough he was a good leader.... as he was literaly brought up by the watch, but before that at ten i dont think hed be exactly the sort of strategic and logistics genius the watch needs...more like a  nw vote tiebreaking figurehead so that a few commanders with bad blood can live with the overall 'leader' whilw they do their own thing

-or exile... but more likely ned and his mentor job arryn i think would stand their ground on the honourable matter and been firm on  no killing kids. Just as with visery and dany itl be " If they become a threat as adults wel deal with them as adults"  but ned  honourably (dunno if correctly)  dug his heels.in at killing danys or viserys murder so hed unquestionably do it for much younger kids....if robert had a problem.with that (hed probably rage and bluster but calm down esp to ned and jon combined ) ned and jon would probably walk away with the kids under their protection if robert insisted on ending or night watching them

Edited July 7, 2023 by astarkchoice

[frenin]

5 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

-yeah id expect once he was old enough he was a good leader.... as he was literaly brought up by the watch, but before that at ten i dont think hed be exactly the sort of strategic and logistics genius the watch needs...more like a  nw vote tiebreaking figurehead so that a few commanders with bad blood can live with the overall 'leader' whilw they do their own thing

You're ignoring the fact that he was left in the Wall at that age because he was bothering someone at Winterfell.

It doesn't matter that he's useless, it only matter that he can say the vows.

 

5 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

or exile...

Neither of the rebels wanted exile for the Targlings, they accepted it once they were effectively gone.

Few to none new rulers, especially those who gain power violently, chooses exile. You want your political rivals dead or completely neutralized under your power, exile is just an opportunity to soow the seeds for rebellion. You cannot control them in exile, you can control them if they are your prisoners, if they are dead or if you send them to the gulag.

 

5 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

but more likely ned and his mentor job arryn i think would stand their ground on the honourable matter and been firm on  no killing kids. Just as with visery and dany itl be " If they become a threat as adults wel deal with them as adults"  but ned  honourably (dunno if correctly)  dug his heels.in at killing danys or viserys murder so hed unquestionably do it for much younger kids....if robert had a problem.with that (hed probably rage and bluster but calm down esp to ned and jon combined ) ned and jon would probably walk away with the kids under their protection if robert insisted on ending or night watching them

You're seeing things that aren't in the books.

 

1. Once in King's Landing and nominally King, Ned cannot simply walk away with two literal enemies of the state lol.
2. You're literally making up Jon Arryn's character, this is the same man that tried to mediate between Robert and Ned, the same man that watched Tywin deliver butchered toddlers in front of him and he still went and betrothed his surrogate son to Tuwin's daughter yadda yadda yadda, there's absolutely nothinng in Arryn's character that hints hhe'd complain if the children were quietly shipped off to penal colonies.
3. Ned does not consider the Watch a terrible place,  quite the contrary he believes it a place of honor.

 

Again, all the rebels knew nothing good awaited the Targlings when they pushed for Robert to take the crown. It's baffling fans pretend there was another way, just because Ned would oppose to murder children does not mean he'd oppose other more gentile ways of getting rid of them, especially one that is an honor in his own culture!

Edited July 7, 2023 by frenin

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

You're ignoring the fact that he was left in the Wall at that age because he was bothering someone at Winterfell.

It doesn't matter that he's useless, it only matter that he can say the vows.

 

Neither of the rebels wanted exile for the Targlings, they accepted it once they were effectively gone.

 

You're seeing things that aren't in the books.

 

1. Once in King's Landing and nominally King, Ned cannot simply walk away with two literal enemies of the state lol.
2. You're literally making up Jon Arryn's character, this is the same man that tried to mediate between Robert and Ned, the same man that watched Tywin deliver butchered toddlers in front of him and he still went and betrothed his surrogate son to Tuwin's daughter yadda yadda yadda, there's absolutely nothinng in Arryn's character that hints hhe'd complain if the children were quietly shipped off to penal colonies.
3. Ned does not consider the Watch a terrible place,  quite the contrary he believes it a place of honor.

 

Again, all the rebels knew nothing good awaited the Targlings when they pushed for Robert to take the crown. It's baffling fans pretend there was another way, just because Ned would oppose to murder children does not mean he'd oppose other more gentile ways of getting rid of them, especially one that is an honor in his own culture!

Readers know that the Nights Watch is the Legion of the Damned, where violent death is the likeliest fate, for those unlucky enough to finish up there .  Deep down, I really suspect Ned does, as well.  But, he and everyone else can tell themselves it's a place of honour. 

And, I agree with your analysis.  If he was willing for Jon to go there, after 14 years of being raised with his children, he certainly would not baulk at Aegon being sent there.

I agree too, about Jon Arryn.  Nothing about his record suggest to me that he was  particularly virtuous or competent.

 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

Dalton Greyjoy was the deadliest man alive at the time of the Dance. Individually. He’d best Criston Cole and Daemon Targaryen 

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

-You're ignoring the fact that he was left in the Wall at that age because he was bothering someone at Winterfell.

It doesn't matter that he's useless, it only matter that he can say the vows.

 

-Neither of the rebels wanted exile for the Targlings, they accepted it once they were effectively gone.

Few to none new rulers, especially those who gain power violently, chooses exile. You want your political rivals dead or completely neutralized under your power, exile is just an opportunity to soow the seeds for rebellion. You cannot control them in exile, you can control them if they are your prisoners, if they are dead or if you send them to the gulag.

 

-You're seeing things that aren't in the books.

 

1. Once in King's Landing and nominally King, Ned cannot simply walk away with two literal enemies of the state lol.
2. You're literally making up Jon Arryn's character, this is the same man that tried to mediate between Robert and Ned, the same man that watched Tywin deliver butchered toddlers in front of him and he still went and betrothed his surrogate son to Tuwin's daughter yadda yadda yadda, there's absolutely nothinng in Arryn's character that hints hhe'd complain if the children were quietly shipped off to penal colonies.
3. Ned does not consider the Watch a terrible place,  quite the contrary he believes it a place of honor.

 

Again, all the rebels knew nothing good awaited the Targlings when they pushed for Robert to take the crown. It's baffling fans pretend there was another way, just because Ned would oppose to murder children does not mean he'd oppose other more gentile ways of getting rid of them, especially one that is an honor in his own culture!

-yes but its seen as extraordinary , the wall is a place grown men.struggle to survive in let alone kids.

-yet we literaly see ned choose to take on a similar  danger rather than do something dishonourable , he literaly laughs at viserys and the dothraki 'when their horses learn to run on water' . He berates robert for fearing a child rather than face them like a man IF they later become a threat! 

-

1) yes he can hes got his army there too and unless his best pal is willing to actualy murder him  or go to war  then hel do as he pleases, ned will die to do the right thing .....robert wont kill the man he thinks of as brother to do something  esp in his heart of hearts he knows its the right thing to do ( if deeply impractical )

2)hes considered the one who raised both of them to be honourable men , who refused to let his adopted boys be butchered and he did seal robert and  cersei together yes  but the realm needed that stability!  He also risked his life to persobaly go to dorne and calm doran back when he wanted warfare for ellia  over insanely complicated drawn out revenge  plans..he was clearly an honourable man.

3)ned knows what it is , his own brother vists him often ....he knows its a hard shitty place  and he even had plans to fix it up (bos long term plans for the gift) but also that there is honour there .......but no place for a kid

Hed oppose it surely ..the watch can barely look after its own let alone babysit ,its a  deathtrap!

 

Edit on reflection maybe stewardship could be safe enough 

Edited July 7, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Craving Peaches]

57 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Readers know that the Nights Watch is the Legion of the Damned, where violent death is the likeliest fate, for those unlucky enough to finish up there . 

I'm not sure. It's certainly not pleasant, but the only people I would expect to die a 'violent' death (until the Others come) are unlucky rangers. Builders and Stewards should be fine, the work is hard and boring and you get no thanks for it, but not particularly dangerous, especially by Westeros standards.

[astarkchoice]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure. It's certainly not pleasant, but the only people I would expect to die a 'violent' death (until the Others come) are unlucky rangers. Builders and Stewards should be fine, the work is hard and boring and you get no thanks for it, but not particularly dangerous, especially by Westeros standards.

Kinda still dangerous .

Its still filled with ex cons, is supposedly one of the worst places come winter , building would be dangerous normaly before adding in the wall and the crumbling nature of the castles ....making it a permanent hard hat area by our standards!

 

On reflection  maybe stewards...if kids today in china  sweatshops can sew trainers maybe a medieval kid can tough it out

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

Its still filled with ex cons

Yeah but we don't hear about them killing people often or at all. If the Watch couldn't maintain discipline it would have fallen apart.

[astarkchoice]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yeah but we don't hear about them killing people often or at all. If the Watch couldn't maintain discipline it would have fallen apart.

We dont hear of it but theyd likely not advertise it ...we  literaly see jon almost get shanked upon joining for being a cocky lil lordling! Lord royce lucky the others got him before he got on his mens nerves one more time and a massive mutiny at crasters!!! 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure. It's certainly not pleasant, but the only people I would expect to die a 'violent' death (until the Others come) are unlucky rangers. Builders and Stewards should be fine, the work is hard and boring and you get no thanks for it, but not particularly dangerous, especially by Westeros standards.

Everyone has to fight, though.

And, discipline goes to pieces, North of the Wall.