Unpopular Opinions You Have?

[Craving Peaches]

On 7/6/2023 at 10:04 AM, SaffronLady said:

An admirably materialistic take on a world of magic.

I rest my case that the dragons died because the general state of magic in the world was in decline during that period, just as they came back when magic was coming back.

All of these 'grand conspiracies' I find unfeasible because they depend on loads of people knowing and keeping quiet about it. As Areo Hotah says, someone always tells, and Arianne's conspiracy had far fewer people than the ones from these theories. If they existed, someone who was actually part of it (not Marwyn) would blab. Saying there is a grand Maester/Faith conspiracy to do X is like saying there is a grand Catholic Church conspiracy to do X. These institutions have thousands of people with different goals in them, they are not monolithic entities. A 'conspiracy' could only work within a small sub-group. And what Marwyn is saying doesn't make sense. If the Archmaesters want to stamp out magic/don't believe it's real, why do they still teach the Higher Mysteries and why is there an Archmaester position for the subject? If they don't trust Marwyn, why did they make him Archmaester and why are they letting him go unsupervised to Essos multiple times? Why are they letting him meet Daenerys?

Maybe I will be proven wrong and there will turn out to be a grand conspiracy, but the idea as it stands now conflicts with what is presented to us in the text, in my opinion.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[csuszka1948]

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I rest my case that the dragons died because the general state of magic in the world was in decline during that period, just as they came back when magic was coming back.

All of these 'grand conspiracies' I find unfeasible because they depend on loads of people knowing and keeping quiet about it. As Areo Hotah says, someone always tells, and Arianne's conspiracy had far fewer people than the ones from these theories. If they existed, someone who was actually part of it (not Marwyn) would blab. Saying there is a grand Maester/Faith conspiracy to do X is like saying there is a grand Catholic Church conspiracy to do X. These institutions have thousands of people with different goals in them, they are not monolithic entities. A 'conspiracy' could only work within a small sub-group. And what Marwyn is saying doesn't make sense. If the Archmaesters want to stamp out magic/don't believe it's real, why do they still teach the Higher Mysteries and why is there an Archmaester position for the subject? If they don't trust Marwyn, why did they make him Archmaester and why are they letting him go unsupervised to Essos multiple times? Why are they letting him meet Daenerys?

Maybe I will be proven wrong and there will turn out to be a grand conspiracy, but the idea as it stands now conflicts with what is presented to us so get in the text, in my opinion.

 

I agree that a grand conspiracy is unfeasible but killing the dragons after the Dance is not (and it makes sense, considering the Hightower funding and the bad experience of the war). Master Munkun was the only member of the Regency council that held position during all 5 years, and he could have probably arranged something.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I don't think that Robert was okay with the cruel murders of Aegon and Rhaeny. I feel that deep down he felt horror and regret about their savage murders, but at the same time he felt some measure of relief since it means that he wouldn't have been forced to do something to them, and that his dragonspawn excuse was taking refuge in his hatred and ressentment of the Targaryens to not admit his regrets and make up for his frustrations with his miserable life.

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I don't think that Robert was okay with the cruel murders of Aegon and Rhaeny. I feel that deep down he felt horror and regret about their savage murders, but at the same time he felt some measure of relief since it means that he wouldn't have been forced to do something to them, and that his dragonspawn excuse was taking refuge in his hatred and ressentment of the Targaryens to not admit his regrets and make up for his frustrations with his miserable life.

I think he was completely apathetic to a horrific murder, but a more sympathetic reading could be that his dismissal and attempts to dehumanise them was him trying to 'shield' himself from the horror of what happened. We will probably never know though, because Ned is dead, Robert is dead, and we have no information on Robert's tone of voice, intonation, facial expression or other body language. I always imagined he said it brusquely whilst frowning, didn't really look or looked quickly, then walked away. But we will never know.

[astarkchoice]

9 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I don't think that Robert was okay with the cruel murders of Aegon and Rhaeny. I feel that deep down he felt horror and regret about their savage murders, but at the same time he felt some measure of relief since it means that he wouldn't have been forced to do something to them, and that his dragonspawn excuse was taking refuge in his hatred and ressentment of the Targaryens to not admit his regrets and make up for his frustrations with his miserable life.

Agreed 

He probably couldnt have brought himself to do it esp with jon arryn or ned around watching.

But the threat of a targ leader  (possibly mad too) rising up with dorne and tyrell help (esp as some of his own bannermen had to be battered into obedience) would haunt him if they wernt dead.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

On 7/4/2023 at 4:31 PM, kissdbyfire said:

How so? I mean, Rickon is barely 6 and not the teenager he was in the abomination. 

 

Rickon is about to be picked up by the Manderly’s who want him as Lord/King. Meanwhile, Jon is about to be resurrected and Robb’s Will is floating out there. Meaning Jon & Rickon could very well both be vying for the Northern throne, I doubt they come to blows. But it will be a cause of major tension. 

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Agreed 

He probably couldnt have brought himself to do it esp with jon arryn or ned around watching.

But the threat of a targ leader  (possibly mad too) rising up with dorne and tyrell help (esp as some of his own bannermen had to be battered into obedience) would haunt him if they wernt dead.

He’d just be content if someone else did it for him.

Elia and her children (Rhaella and hers) would  have been locked away somewhere and never heard of again.

People would understand what had happened and would understand it was not a subject that was worth discussing.

[astarkchoice]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

He’d just be content if someone else did it for him.

Elia and her children (Rhaella and hers) would  have been locked away somewhere and never heard of again.

People would understand what had happened and would understand it was not a subject that was worth discussing.

The dornish would want a word  if elia was locked away  and the reach  are dangerous loyalists too. Ned and jon wouldnt approve either esp with the children

No theyd need to be fostered and  theyd want their crown back when they came of age. Plus if they are to be given their crowns then the appearance of chasing poor viserys and danys becomes an issue. Robert would be obliged to either step down and have a knife hanging over him OR drop the distant targ rationale for his kingship and simply decalre a new regime as might makes right.....but that opens up all kind of future wars.

[frenin]

14 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

The dornish would want a word  if elia was locked away  and the reach  are dangerous loyalists too. Ned and jon wouldnt approve either esp with the children

No theyd need to be fostered and  theyd want their crown back when they came of age. Plus if they are to be given their crowns then the appearance of chasing poor viserys and danys becomes an issue. Robert would be obliged to either step down and have a knife hanging over him OR drop the distant targ rationale for his kingship and simply decalre a new regime as might makes right.....but that opens up all kind of future wars.

If only there was a penal colony or holy order which automatically barred people who are forced to join from any kind of inheritance.

That sure would be helpful 

I would call those useful institutions that help rulers get rid of political enemies or inconvenient rivals a name, something like the Night's Watch or Silent Sisters or something...

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

If only there was a penal colony or holy order which automatically barred people who are forced to join from any kind of inheritance.

That sure would be helpful 

I would call those useful institutions that help rulers get rid of political enemies or inconvenient rivals a name, something like the Night's Watch or Silent Sisters or something...

The Watch would do the trick.  It's the in-universe equivalent of Vologda Labour Camp of Strict Regime, No. 7.

[Alester Florent]

I think the fandom as a whole is too harsh on Robert, especially younger Robert. I think we are supposed to see him as a generally decent man, generous, loyal, big-hearted, a great warrior - who by the time we meet him has been reduced by the quotidian demands of a job he hates, depression after the death of his beloved, and the strain of a marriage to a woman who takes every opportunity to antagonise and belittle him.

Part of it is doubtless because many of the masculine virtues which Robert embodied are out of kilter with modern sensibilities (and even moreso in 2023 than they were in 1996 when the character was written!) and I might venture particularly so in the sector of society that tends to enjoy fantasy books.

But I think perhaps the principal cause is that Robert and Ned were disposed of back in Book 1 and we've now had four books (three and a half accounting for Renly's popularity as Robert Mk2) with the narrative about Robert dominated by his enemies and detractors: principally Cersei, but also Tywin, Stannis, Jaime, and so on, so readers have internalised their narrative, forgetting that Robert was in fact widely loved both as a young lord and as king, and that for all his faults he did manage to hold the kingdoms together - peacefully apart from Balon's idiocy - until his death.

[astarkchoice]

38 minutes ago, frenin said:

If only there was a penal colony or holy order which automatically barred people who are forced to join from any kind of inheritance.

That sure would be helpful 

I would call those useful institutions that help rulers get rid of political enemies or inconvenient rivals a name, something like the Night's Watch or Silent Sisters or something...

You cant send kids there though man..what use are they gonna be to the watch?...unless they can do a medieval version of 'home alone' when the wildlings attack

Mance : You missed ya lil punks..lets see ya try and throw another

Tormund(on the ground with brick beside him) noooo

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

You cant send kids there though man..what use are they gonna be to the watch?...unless they can do a medieval version of 'home alone' when the wildlings attack

Mance : You missed ya lil punks..lets see ya try and throw another

Tormund(on the ground with brick beside him) noooo

I think there have been cases of children being sent to the Watch. I'd be surprised if many reach adulthood. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I finally found the old comment I made explaining why I think LF is the worst-written character in the series. I’m just going to copy and paste it here:

I personally don't consider Littlefinger to be a particularly well-written character, so I hope that George doesn't find some way to make him responsible for starting Robert's Rebellion as well as TWOT5K. George may have intended for him to come off as a genial man that no one views as threatening, but that's not how he's written. He's a little shit who mocks people straight to their faces and openly betrays his supposed allies, yet is still somehow not considered a danger as late as AFFC, after he was made Lord of Harrenhal, Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, consort to the Lady of the Vale, AND Lord Protector of the of the Vale. He has too much plot armor: somehow him putting a knife to Ned Stark's throat in front of the whole court doesn't get out, he randomly produces a bastard daughter the same age as Sansa and betroths her to Robert Arryn's heir in the matter of a few weeks without anyone in King's Landing finding out, and don't even get me started on Tyrion not chopping his head off the second he became Hand. Apparently he was too important to get rid of... because no one else in Westeros (or Essos) has any understanding of economics, I guess? Who manages the finances for Casterly Rock then?

There's also the awkward realization that LF is essentially Westeros' Jeffrey Epstein, even if no one knew who Epstein was when the books were first written. Clever man from humble beginnings with a knack for moving money around lies and networks his way into befriending powerful people, inflates their bank accounts, and gathers enough dirt to keep everyone quiet. Eventually becomes rich and powerful in his own right and starts preying on and trafficking young girls. They both even have a devoted henchwoman who would do anything for them.

And here's where I reach a fork in the road. I have been pretty open about how I try not to be too uptight or moralistic with this series, since it's a fantasy series written for adults, but this is one instance where I struggle to do that. Littlefinger has survived this long, against all reason, and his main purpose for two books now has been to abduct and molest a teenage girl. (Even Joffrey's murder was more Olenna than him—after all, she's the one who put the poison in the chalice). And that bothers me. Ultimately, this comes back to the huge gap between the books. Maybe logistics finally start catching up with LF in TWOW, but for over a decade now, we've been left with him preying over a vulnerable girl whose family he killed, with the whole world at his feet. And then there's Jeyne Poole.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

38 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I finally found the old comment I made explaining why I think LF is the worst-written character in the series. I’m just going to copy and paste it here:

I personally don't consider Littlefinger to be a particularly well-written character, so I hope that George doesn't find some way to make him responsible for starting Robert's Rebellion as well as TWOT5K. George may have intended for him to come off as a genial man that no one views as threatening, but that's not how he's written. He's a little shit who mocks people straight to their faces and openly betrays his supposed allies, yet is still somehow not considered a danger as late as AFFC, after he was made Lord of Harrenhal, Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, consort to the Lady of the Vale, AND Lord Protector of the of the Vale. He has too much plot armor: somehow him putting a knife to Ned Stark's throat in front of the whole court doesn't get out, he randomly produces a bastard daughter the same age as Sansa and betroths her to Robert Arryn's heir in the matter of a few weeks without anyone in King's Landing finding out, and don't even get me started on Tyrion not chopping his head off the second he became Hand. Apparently he was too important to get rid of... because no one else in Westeros (or Essos) has any understanding of economics, I guess? Who manages the finances for Casterly Rock then?

There's also the awkward realization that LF is essentially Westeros' Jeffrey Epstein, even if no one knew who Epstein was when the books were first written. Clever man from humble beginnings with a knack for moving money around lies and networks his way into befriending powerful people, inflates their bank accounts, and gathers enough dirt to keep everyone quiet. Eventually becomes rich and powerful in his own right and starts preying on and trafficking young girls. They both even have a devoted henchwoman who would do anything for them.

And here's where I reach a fork in the road. I have been pretty open about how I try not to be too uptight or moralistic with this series, since it's a fantasy series written for adults, but this is one instance where I struggle to do that. Littlefinger has survived this long, against all reason, and his main purpose for two books now has been to abduct and molest a teenage girl. (Even Joffrey's murder was more Olenna than him—after all, she's the one who put the poison in the chalice). And that bothers me. Ultimately, this comes back to the huge gap between the books. Maybe logistics finally start catching up with LF in TWOW, but for over a decade now, we've been left with him preying over a vulnerable girl whose family he killed, with the whole world at his feet. And then there's Jeyne Poole.

You've pointed out a lot of things that I never stopped to consider. I suppose you could say he made himself just useful enough for people to want to keep him around. But at this point in the story, he's so disliked that someone would want to discreetly off him. Which is why I'm convinced that he will meet his end soon, and I'll be surprised if it doesn't happen in Winds. No one in the Vale even likes him, and he's still a suspect for Lysa's murder. I've always felt like his character as a whole (books & the abomination) was both overhyped and overestimated by the fandom. For now, he continues to buy and bargain his way into power. But, for all we know, there might be a conspiracy going on behind the scenes. The people he thinks he is stringing along might actually be taking him for a ride. The fact that GRRM is letting us in on LF's plans is enough to make me think everything will fall apart for him shortly. And everyone's "stupid/dumb" Sansa will most likely play a vital role in his downfall. The fates of her father and Jeyne Poole will most likely be her main motivator to break away from her passiveness. His end has to be around the corner, otherwise his story has gone well beyond the point of ridiculousness 

Edit: I'm gonna enjoy a glass of wine if loyalty and unity bring down the man who believed everyone could be bought. Don't let me down, GRRM.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[csuszka1948]

50 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I think the fandom as a whole is too harsh on Robert, especially younger Robert. I think we are supposed to see him as a generally decent man, generous, loyal, big-hearted, a great warrior - who by the time we meet him has been reduced by the quotidian demands of a job he hates, depression after the death of his beloved, and the strain of a marriage to a woman who takes every opportunity to antagonise and belittle him.

Part of it is doubtless because many of the masculine virtues which Robert embodied are out of kilter with modern sensibilities (and even moreso in 2023 than they were in 1996 when the character was written!) and I might venture particularly so in the sector of society that tends to enjoy fantasy books.

 

Robert might get viewed in a too negative light.

That said, I think George (himself being a nerd and a writer) vastly prefers Rhaegar (the "bookish prince") as a ruler over Robert and thinks the 'wrong man came back from the Trident'. Rhaegar wanted to call a Council after the Trident - probably peacefully deposing his father and maybe even telling Westeros about the possible threat from the North - while Robert wanted to end the Targaryens.

[The Bard of Banefort]

7 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

You've pointed out a lot of things that I never stopped to consider. I suppose you could say he made himself just useful enough for people to want to keep him around. But at this point in the story, he's so disliked that someone would want to discreetly off him. Which is why I'm convinced that he will meet his end soon, and I'll be surprised if it doesn't happen in Winds. No one in the Vale even likes him, and he's still a suspect for Lysa's murder. I've always felt like his character as a whole (books & the abomination) was both overhyped and overestimated by the fandom. For now, he continues to buy and bargain his way into power. But, for all we know, there might be a conspiracy going on behind the scenes. The people he thinks he is stringing along might actually be taking him for a ride. The fact that GRRM is letting us in on LF's plans is enough to make me think everything will fall apart for him shortly. And everyone's "stupid/dumb" Sansa will most likely play a vital role in his downfall. The fates of her father and Jeyne Poole will most likely be her main motivator to break away from her passiveness. His end has to be around the corner, otherwise his story has gone well beyond the point of ridiculousness 

I didn’t stop to consider it myself until I saw some people point out on Reddit how LF continually gets away with insulting powerful people right to their faces. This is one detail the show actually improved upon, since it included a scene where Cersei threatened to have him executed if he didn’t watch his mouth.

I think he needs to be publicly exposed for the role he played in Jon Arryn’s death too. I expect that the “castle made of snow” is Winterfell. So sadly, we may be stuck with Littlefinger for another book. . . 

[csuszka1948]

40 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I finally found the old comment I made explaining why I think LF is the worst-written character in the series. I’m just going to copy and paste it here:

I personally don't consider Littlefinger to be a particularly well-written character, so I hope that George doesn't find some way to make him responsible for starting Robert's Rebellion as well as TWOT5K. George may have intended for him to come off as a genial man that no one views as threatening, but that's not how he's written. He's a little shit who mocks people straight to their faces and openly betrays his supposed allies, yet is still somehow not considered a danger as late as AFFC, after he was made Lord of Harrenhal, Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, consort to the Lady of the Vale, AND Lord Protector of the of the Vale. He has too much plot armor: somehow him putting a knife to Ned Stark's throat in front of the whole court doesn't get out, he randomly produces a bastard daughter the same age as Sansa and betroths her to Robert Arryn's heir in the matter of a few weeks without anyone in King's Landing finding out, and don't even get me started on Tyrion not chopping his head off the second he became Hand.

 

Tyrion not punishing him actually makes zero sense, and that's why I think that George (as a gardener) has retconned LF when writing ACOK.

In AGOT, he very much comes off as a little shit and nobody trusts him (Jaime even tells Cersei in the tower about how ambitious he is), he puts a dagger to Ned's throat in front of the entire court, Cat tells Tyrion about the ownership of the dagger and Tywin gives permission to Tyrion to chop his head off ("heads, spikes, walls"). All in all, I am pretty sure George's plan while writing AGOT was to have Tyrion send LF to the Wall as soon as he arrives to KL as 'justice' for the lie about the dagger and justice for Ned's betrayal.

However, while he has written ACOK (and a general 6 book outline to the series), he came up with the idea of LF as the architect of the Wo5K and the mentor of Sansa. He decided to go with it and change LF to a more genial and trusted person while come up with some contrived reason why Tyrion forgets about what he has done to him.

40 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

And here's where I reach a fork in the road. I have been pretty open about how I try not to be too uptight or moralistic with this series, since it's a fantasy series written for adults, but this is one instance where I struggle to do that. Littlefinger has survived this long, against all reason, and his main purpose for two books now has been to abduct and molest a teenage girl. (Even Joffrey's murder was more Olenna than him—after all, she's the one who put the poison in the chalice). And that bothers me. Ultimately, this comes back to the huge gap between the books. Maybe logistics finally start catching up with LF in TWOW, but for over a decade now, we've been left with him preying over a vulnerable girl whose family he killed, with the whole world at his feet. And then there's Jeyne Poole.

 

 

My main problem is not that he abducts young girls, but his villain plot armor and his success going against the themes of the stories. He supposedly starts out an incredibly complicated vengeance plan with Jon's murder and the letter to Cat, and, despite much less complicated vengeance plans (like Doran's) tend to fail each and every turn in the series (bc vengeance is bad is a central theme), LF completely and miraculously succeeds. Varys even hints that he knows about many of his acts, and he does nothing to stop him.

[astarkchoice]

53 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think there have been cases of children being sent to the Watch. I'd be surprised if many reach adulthood. 

Yeah based on what we've seen kids would only be of use if the nights watch chef is ruthless enough!!! 

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

You cant send kids there though man..what use are they gonna be to the watch?...unless they can do a medieval version of 'home alone' when the wildlings attack

Mance : You missed ya lil punks..lets see ya try and throw another

Tormund(on the ground with brick beside him) noooo

In this scenario I imagine Ned would offer/agree to foster him until he's old enough to go to the Wall. Pretty much exactly what he does in fact - albeit clandestinely and not entirely intentionally - with Rhaegar's other son.