Unpopular Opinions You Have?

[astarkchoice]

30 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Tyrion not punishing him actually makes zero sense, and that's why I think that George (as a gardener) has retconned LF when writing ACOK.

In AGOT, he very much comes off as a little shit and nobody trusts him (Jaime even tells Cersei in the tower about how ambitious he is), he puts a dagger to Ned's throat in front of the entire court, Cat tells Tyrion about the ownership of the dagger and Tywin gives permission to Tyrion to chop his head off ("heads, spikes, walls"). All in all, I am pretty sure George's plan while writing AGOT was to have Tyrion send LF to the Wall as soon as he arrives to KL as 'justice' for the lie about the dagger and justice for Ned's betrayal.

However, while he has written ACOK (and a general 6 book outline to the series), he came up with the idea of LF as the architect of the Wo5K and the mentor of Sansa. He decided to go with it and change LF to a more genial and trusted person while come up with some contrived reason why Tyrion forgets about what he has done to him.

My main problem is not that he abducts young girls, but his villain plot armor and his success going against the themes of the stories. He supposedly starts out an incredibly complicated vengeance plan with Jon's murder and the letter to Cat, and, despite much less complicated vengeance plans (like Doran's) tend to fail each and every turn in the series (bc vengeance is bad is a central theme), LF completely and miraculously succeeds. Varys even hints that he knows about many of his acts, and he does nothing to stop him.

Dunno i think we are reaching a bit to put it down to plot armour 

Lfs strength is he can adapt on the fly to circumstance as hes both sociopathic and he has no master or alloes to work with/for BUT that could be his undoing later

The knife issue tyrion may simply have put vengance to the back of his 'to do' list which as we see in kingslanding is full!

Also tyrions intellegence may command him  to find/work out the  '  why  ' lf did it before he fucks him up!!

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Rickon is about to be picked up by the Manderly’s who want him as Lord/King.
 

Well… sure, Manderly sent Davos to find Rickon and bring the kid to him. But long before Davos could deliver him to Manderly, and that’s if he'll be able to given everyone’s location, they'll probably end up at the Wall. 

3 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Meanwhile, Jon is about to be resurrected and Robb’s Will is floating out there. Meaning Jon & Rickon could very well both be vying for the Northern throne, I doubt they come to blows. But it will be a cause of major tension. 

Jon’s not dead but that’s a separate convo. At any rate, he will be out of commission for some time. And then it’s all down to the timing. How is Davos, Rickon & co get to the Wall? One option is landing near EbtS; another is landing near HH and meeting up w/ Pyke, refugees etc. The latter would obviously take a lot longer, and then we go back to how long Jon’s out of the picture. But at any rate, all this points to Jon and Rickon meeting long before Manderly is even aware that Davos’ mission was successful. I don’t see Rickon, the 6 yr old kid who’s lost everything, getting into a power dispute with Jon. Just as I don’t see Jon antagonising his baby “half-brother”. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[astarkchoice]

5 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

In this scenario I imagine Ned would offer/agree to foster him until he's old enough to go to the Wall. Pretty much exactly what he does in fact - albeit clandestinely and not entirely intentionally - with Rhaegar's other son.

Hmmm ned has enough wards though and his existance as a kid would be enough for others to maybe wanna take the crown then rule through him!

[frenin]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

You cant send kids there though man..

Yeah you can.

 

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

what use are they gonna be to the watch?

Don't know if that's the most relevant counter argument to the fact that the Watch is a penal colony whose secondary most important task is that of getting rid of political rivals/enemies in a swift and clean manner.

It's completely inmaterial the kids would of no use.

If Aegon had been sent to the Watch, not even Ned would have throw a fit.

 

 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah based on what we've seen kids would only be of use if the nights watch chef is ruthless enough!!! 

Going by real life, the kids would mostly be used for sex at the Wall.

[SaffronLady]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

All of these 'grand conspiracies' I find unfeasible because they depend on loads of people knowing and keeping quiet about it. As Areo Hotah says, someone always tells, and Arianne's conspiracy had far fewer people than the ones from these theories. If they existed, someone who was actually part of it (not Marwyn) would blab. Saying there is a grand Maester/Faith conspiracy to do X is like saying there is a grand Catholic Church conspiracy to do X. These institutions have thousands of people with different goals in them, they are not monolithic entities.

But real life has taught us that though any institution with thousands of members tend to be revealed more or less, core membership with greater goals could still push their agenda forward when outlying units are exposed and destroyed. The "they are not monolithic" argument does not work against "the most powerful, knowledgable and ambitious maesters were actively sabotaging the Targs while maesters in general work against magic, learning magic to fight fire with fire".

The term fight fire with fire was used intentionally, btw.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

core membership with greater goals could still push their agenda forward when outlying units are exposed and destroyed.

True, but we don't see any outlying units destroyed in the case of a grand Maester conspiracy either.

10 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

the most powerful, knowledgable and ambitious maesters were actively sabotaging the Targs while maesters in general work against magic, learning magic to fight fire with fire".

But the lower ranking maesters aren't taught to fight fire with fire, they are taught that the fire(magic) doesn't exist and so it is useless to waste time trying it. As seen from when they make the novices sit in the room and try and light the glass candles for nothing to happen.

[astarkchoice]

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yeah you can.

 

Don't know if that's the most relevant counter argument to the fact that the Watch is a penal colony whose secondary most important task is that of getting rid of political rivals/enemies in a swift and clean manner.

It's completely inmaterial the kids would of no use.

If Aegon had been sent to the Watch, not even Ned would have throw a fit.

 

 

- they wouldnt be old enough to swear oaths as adults

-prisoners are sent there but the leaders of the watch and most northmen still see it as a proud if faded institution not some alternative prison!  Sorta like the spirit of  the foriegn legion , its seen by many still as somewhere  that even criminals can be reborn into something noble to serve the realm...not a dumping ground for the politicaly inconvenient

 

Ned stood up to robert over viserys and dany so yeah  hed stand up over a much younger  child

[SaffronLady]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

True, but we don't see any outlying units destroyed in the case of a grand Maester conspiracy either.

I do personally consider theories that Maegor was working on that pure speculation. Maegor killed a lot of Grand Maesters cause he was a tyrant, not because he was some "hostile maester detector". He wouldn't have been called a tyrant if he killed with precision.

 

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But the lower ranking maesters aren't taught to fight fire with fire, they are taught that the fire(magic) doesn't exist and so it is useless to waste time trying it. As seen from when they make the novices sit in the room and try and light the glass candles for nothing to happen.

Should have put the fight fire with fire up in the "most ambitious maesters" part. I guess I wrote the way I did cause I dunno how widespread magic is on the various levels of the Citadel. I do know there are in total around 1%, just no idea where that 1% stands in relation to the other maesters.

[astarkchoice]

34 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Going by real life, the kids would mostly be used for sex at the Wall.

More like food 

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

In this scenario I imagine Ned would offer/agree to foster him until he's old enough to go to the Wall. Pretty much exactly what he does in fact - albeit clandestinely and not entirely intentionally - with Rhaegar's other son.

Id argue that hes got too many wards

If they allowed that hed need to go to someone  with less like stannis etc

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

More like food 

My suspicion is that quite a bit of murder goes on up at the Wall.

The lower class brothers are sent there as an alternative to execution, and resent their status.  Highborn brothers are mostly enemies of the State, or unwanted offspring.  Everyone knows they aren’t returning alive. It’s not so much the Foreign Legion as The Legion of the Damned. The opportunities for people to vanish on rangings, or slip and fall off the Wall, are endless.

Edited July 6, 2023 by SeanF

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

I do personally consider theories that Maegor was working on that pure speculation. Maegor killed a lot of Grand Maesters cause he was a tyrant, not because he was some "hostile maester detector". He wouldn't have been called a tyrant if he killed with precision.

Agreed. I do not see what the point is in trying to justify Maegor's actions like this when they are already presented as unjustifiable in world. He's called 'the Cruel' for a reason.

[csuszka1948]

39 minutes ago, SeanF said:

My suspicion is that quite a bit of murder goes on up at the Wall.

The lower class brothers are sent there as an alternative to execution, and resent their status.  Highborn brothers are mostly enemies of the State, or unwanted offspring.  Everyone knows they aren’t returning alive. It’s not so much the Foreign Legion as The Legion of the Damned. The opportunities for people to vanish on rangings, or slip and fall off the Wall, are endless.

Yes, the Watch is a bit unrealistic.

You have an organization that is mostly a penal colony consisting male criminals (with a few highborn members), but there is no male rape whatsoever (the entitled version of Jon in the first half of AGOT would have been in particular danger)? No mutiny ('prisoner outbreak') whatsoever before the beginning of the books?

Edited July 6, 2023 by csuszka1948

[astarkchoice]

45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

My suspicion is that quite a bit of murder goes on up at the Wall.

The lower class brothers are sent there as an alternative to execution, and resent their status.  Highborn brothers are mostly enemies of the State, or unwanted offspring.  Everyone knows they aren’t returning alive. It’s not so much the Foreign Legion as The Legion of the Damned. The opportunities for people to vanish on rangings, or slip and fall off the Wall, are endless.

True dat but constant hunger and danger probably bond the majority together.

Having the wildlings as another side for a us vs them  mentality  to build probably helps loads

Edited July 6, 2023 by astarkchoice

[The Wolves]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Yeah you can.

 

Don't know if that's the most relevant counter argument to the fact that the Watch is a penal colony whose secondary most important task is that of getting rid of political rivals/enemies in a swift and clean manner.

It's completely inmaterial the kids would of no use.

If Aegon had been sent to the Watch, not even Ned would have throw a fit.

 

 

Ned should have thrown a fit if Aegon had lived and been sent to the Wall. 
 

Aegon getting punished by being sent to the Wall for the sins of Rhaegar or house Targaryen is cruel. 

[astarkchoice]

5 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, the Watch is a bit unrealistic. You have an organization that is mostly a penal colony of males (with a few highborn members), but there is no gay rape whatsoever (the entitled version of Jon in the first half of AGOT would have been in particular danger)? No mutiny ('prisoner outbreak') whatsoever?

Id say there proably is but  its not as cool for grmm to write about. Jon is entitled but hes been well trained and is proba in better shape than most having never known long term hunger and relatively disease free  .....plus tyrion saves him early on anyway (and a direwolf pet helps)

As we see theres mutinies (craster keep) probaly less when the watch had more highborn  but probably more than has been recorded .......also  the fact theres death both sides of the wall probably helps keep people in check.

Edited July 6, 2023 by astarkchoice

[frenin]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

- they wouldnt be old enough to swear oaths as adults

Dude, Osric Stark was elected as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at the ripe age of ten.

Their age is completely and absolutely inmaterial.

 

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

-prisoners are sent there but the leaders of the watch and most northmen still see it as a proud if faded institution not some alternative prison!  Sorta like the spirit of  the foriegn legion , its seen by many still as somewhere  that even criminals can be reborn into something noble to serve the realm...not a dumping ground for the politicaly inconvenient

The Leaders of the Watch and plenty of Northmen also see it as an alternative prison, if an honorable one.

 

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Ned stood up to robert over viserys and dany so yeah  hed stand up over a much younger  child

Ned stood over their assasinations not about sending them to the Wall, hell Ned considers the Wall and honor lol.

Why would he complain?

 

 

9 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Ned should have thrown a fit if Aegon had lived and been sent to the Wall. 

Why?

 

9 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Aegon getting punished by being sent to the Wall for the sins of Rhaegar or house Targaryen is cruel. 

There is no other alternative.

Fans have to come to terms with the fact that Ned wanted the Targaryens as ousted as Robert and that it is literally impossible for Robert to push his claim to the throne without his most powerful baron supporting him every step of the way.

If Ned had his way the Targlings would obviously still be alive today but they would obviously not be in position to do any damage to the new regime, Ned's regime,  he'd never object the Targaryens to be sent to a place he even considers honorable.

 

 

[frenin]

Another unpopular opinion, Hoster Tully is not as bad as he is presented, he did fuck up with Lysa and he lived to terribly regret the choice he made but fact is, Lysa left him to choose between the bad choice and the worst one, it's a damn shame Lysa had stillbirths.

And his actions in war are no better or worse than any other military leader in the series.

It's quite funny how everyone in the books focuses on how horrible the death of the Targlings was but ignore the peasant children being butchered with coldest nochalance, Ned not thinking about Mycah once while thiking nonstop about Rhaegar's kids will never sit well with me.

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Dude, Osric Stark was elected as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at the ripe age of ten.

Their age is completely and absolutely inmaterial.

 

The Leaders of the Watch and plenty of Northmen also see it as an alternative prison, if an honorable one.

 

Ned stood over their assasinations not about sending them to the Wall, hell Ned considers the Wall and honor lol.

Why would he complain?

 

 

Why?

 

There is no other alternative.

Fans have to come to terms with the fact that Ned wanted the Targaryens as ousted as Robert and that it is literally impossible for Robert to push his claim to the throne without his most powerful baron supporting him every step of the way.

If Ned had his way the Targlings would obviously still be alive today but they would obviously not be in position to do any damage to the new regime, Ned's regime,  he'd never object the Targaryens to be sent to a place he even considers honorable.

 

 

Honestly I see not a lot of difference with my scenario where he’s locked away, never to be heard of again.  It’s just that they’ll persuade themselves that Aegon died “honourably” at the Wall.