Unpopular Opinions You Have?

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The issue is that Tywin's children (mainly Cersei) are going to undo all his work and then some. As soon as he dies it starts unraveling. Because he did not raise his children well.

As opposed to the brilliant job the Starks are doing just about now... 

 

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Meanwhile Ned's children are going to end up restoring the House.

Exactly my point, people are using the old evil will be punished and good rewarded without even having the books.

According to the show, both the offsprings of Tywin and Eddard end up ruling their respective domains and as of now, the Starks are as scattered as they are decimated.

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

As opposed to the brilliant job the Starks are doing just about now... 

I made no comparison with the Starks about the current level of success for the House, but between Ned and Tywin's children raising abilities, Ned wins. The Stark children are not responsible for the disarray the House is in. The Lannister children are destroying what Tywin built.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Exactly my point, people are using the old evil will be punished and good rewarded without even having the books.

I didn't mention anything about good and evil. It's clear that Ned inspires loyalty even after death, whereas Tywin, for all he went on about legacy, has his children start destroying his works before he even dies, I mean he is killed by his own son... People all over think Ned was an honourable man etc. but the only people who really seem to care for Tywin is his immediate family and Pycelle. Tywin's 'rule through fear' could only be sustained while he was alive and now it's falling apart because of his failure as a parent. And it is logical to assume the Stark children will restore the House, because the original title for the last book was 'A Time for Wolves'. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I made no comparison with the Starks about the current level of success for the House, but between Ned and Tywin's children raising abilities, Ned wins. The Stark children are not responsible for the disarray the House is in. The Lannister children are destroying what Tywin built.

I didn't mention anything about good and evil. It's clear that Ned inspires loyalty even after death, whereas Tywin, for all he went on about legacy, has his children start destroying his works before he even dies, I mean he is killed by his own son... People all over think Ned was an honourable man etc. but the only people who really seem to care for Tywin is his immediate family and Pycelle. Tywin's 'rule through fear' could only be sustained while he was alive and now it's falling apart because of his failure as a parent. And it is logical to assume the Stark children will restore the House, because the original title for the last book was 'A Time for Wolves'. 

Jon & Rickon are on a crash course with each other. Bran will soon come into his powers, and be able to interact. Sansa is going to reveal herself in the next book, and will hear of Jon & Rickon. Arya is the only one that isn’t really on course with her family yet. And the could change, depending on how she leaves Braavos.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Martin is as responsible of the abomination ending as D&D are.

If GRRM finished the book series before DD made it to the end of the show, then DD would be wholly responsible. But there's no established canon to deviate from, only broad strokes, so I stand with you on this one.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

Just now, SaffronLady said:

If GRRM finished the book series before DD made it to the end of the show, then DD would be wholly responsible. But there's no established canon to deviate from, only broad strokes, so I stand with you on this one.

I agree to an extent, but if you read any of the horse shot D&D have said over the course of the series, it’s hard not to hate them

[The Bard of Banefort]

Here’s another one: book fans overemphasize Tyrion’s evil. He’s definitely a dark character, and I realize that it’s based in opposition to his TV portrayal as St. Tyrion, but people blame him for a lot of things that were genuinely out of his hands. By adding the valonqar prophecy, GRRM essentially absolved Tyrion of any wrongdoing regarding Cersei—no matter how kind he was to her, she would have still wanted him dead. The same goes for Pycelle, Boros Blount, etc. They would have testified against Tyrion no matter how well he treated them in the past, because they would never cross Tywin and Cersei. 

And no, he isn’t actually planning on assaulting Cersei. People say things in anger that they don’t act on. Same with his threats against Tommen, which he even admitted were empty later on.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

If GRRM finished the book series before DD made it to the end of the show, then DD would be wholly responsible. But there's no established canon to deviate from, only broad strokes, so I stand with you on this one.

Yeah, I don’t see how the show could have gone for twelve seasons like GRRM wanted when he hasn’t even put out book six yet. It isn’t fair to the writers or the cast (and if Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon makes anything plain, it’s how taxing the cast found being on the show after the first few years. The fact that they’re all apparently too uncomfortable to watch HOTD is also an ominous sign).

[SeanF]

I don’t know if it’s unpopular or not, but the show would have been immeasurably better, had @Joe Abercrombiebeen hired to write the scripts in later seasons.

[frenin]

26 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Ned wins.

Is his prize his house being destroyed and his family butchered?

 

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Stark children are not responsible for the disarray the House is in.

Who is it then?

 

Just now, SeanF said:

I don’t know if it’s unpopular or not, but the show would have been immeasurably better, had @Joe Abercrombiebeen hired to write the scripts in later seasons.

Or to finish the books.

 

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's clear that Ned inspires loyalty even after death,

And what does it get him?

 

29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

has his children start destroying his works before he even dies,

And yet he wins the war and secures his house.

Whereas Ned's eldest son and wife are brutally murdered, his two youngest sons fled their ancestral, and now destroyed, home, his eldest daughter has been routinely abused for two straight years and is now the plaything of a psycopathic pedophile who got him killed, his youngest daughter an assasin with ptsd at the ripe age of 11 and his bastard son? Also brutally murdered. His realm and his house are in the hands of a traitourous asshole that quite literally backstabbed his own son and the future of his house is as of now tied to Ramsay fucking Bolton.

What legacy does Ned have at the end of the ADWD as opposed to Tywin?

 

35 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

but the only people who really seem to care for Tywin is his immediate family and Pycelle.

He is liked enough in the West even if it pales in comparison to how Ned is in the North.

 

36 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

now it's falling apart because of his failure as a parent.

As opposed again to how great the Stark kids are doing now, if the only metric we're using is the outcome, then Tywin comes out much better than Ned.

 

37 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

And it is logical to assume the Stark children will restore the House, because the original title for the last book was 'A Time for Wolves'. 

And now it is changed...

 

Tywin, especially when the show was on, has been sucked off for so long that now we're seeing the fandom going to the extreme opposite regarding him.

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Is his prize his house being destroyed and his family butchered?

I don't really know what you are saying or why you are taking those two words out of context. I was clearly talking about child-raising ability where Ned obviously beats Tywin. His 'prize' is that his children are relatively functional people whom are not destroying the House, unlike Tywin's children, but will rebuild it.

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

As opposed again to how great the Stark kids are doing now, if the only metric we're using is the outcome, then Tywin comes out much better than Ned.

House Lannister is collapsing specifically because of how bad a parent Tywin was. House Stark collapsed due to bad luck/Lannisters getting lucky on multiple occasions and Ned being inflexible with his code of honour. Unlike House Lannister, House Stark appears to have a future.

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

seeing the fandom going to the extreme opposite regarding him.

I am not trying to underrate Tywin here. It is clear (to me) from the text that his failure as a parent is going to ruin the House, ironic considering his concern with 'legacy', whereas Ned's good parenting has ensured that despite setbacks his House will live on. Not that I think House Lannister will necessarily go extinct, but if it survives it probably won't be through the 'main branch', and thanks to Tywin's brutality, Jaime's infamy and Cersei's Walk of Shame and associated other things their prestige will be much diminished, likely contrasted with the Starks who have built on Ned's good reputation.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Jon & Rickon are on a crash course with each other.

How so? I mean, Rickon is barely 6 and not the teenager he was in the abomination. 

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

If GRRM finished the book series before DD made it to the end of the show, then DD would be wholly responsible. But there's no established canon to deviate from, only broad strokes, so I stand with you on this one.

I’m not so sure. Martin bears responsibility in how bad the abomination was. But imo his responsibility comes from picking two guys who were obviously not up to the task and who didn’t understand the story at all. And sure, it could have helped - to a degree - if he’d finished the story but it wouldn’t have saved it from being the disaster it was. After all, we know of a few instances where Martin specifically told them how/why they shouldn’t go a certain way and the show runners decided to do what they wanted anyway. All this is to say that even if they had the finished books, they still would probably have made poor choices thinking they knew better b/c they did do just that w/ material that had been published long before the deal for the show was made back in ‘07/’08. 

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, I don’t see how the show could have gone for twelve seasons like GRRM wanted when he hasn’t even put out book six yet. It isn’t fair to the writers or the cast (and if Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon makes anything plain, it’s how taxing the cast found being on the show after the first few years. The fact that they’re all apparently too uncomfortable to watch HOTD is also an ominous sign).

Did he want 12 series? I remember him saying he was hoping for one series per tome as published in the UK (so 2 series for ASoS etc). In fact, when he said that it kind of sounded to me like this was more or less what they’d agreed on initially. 
And who knows, fair chance it wouldn’t have made any difference and we’d still be here waiting. Or maybe not. We’ll never know. 
 

I didn’t read/watch (?) FCKAD b/c of total lack of interest. Isn’t it by the guy from EW who was a huge D&D fanboy? Anyway, the general mood irt being on the show not being great may have to do w/ other factors that are unrelated to the actual story and have instead to do w/ a less than great environment on set as per several accounts. If true, that’s something else that goes on the show runners tab and no one else’s imo. 

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Who is it then?

The adults? 

59 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don’t know if it’s unpopular or not, but the show would have been immeasurably better, had @Joe Abercrombiebeen hired to write the scripts in later seasons.

I like it! But truth be told, the show would have been infinitely better had someone like Abercrombie or Daniel Abraham or any actual good writer written the material from s01e01! 

Edited July 4, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Craving Peaches]

Tywin was killed by his own son, his corpse is rotting and smelling at his funeral, his daughter has to walk naked through the streets, one son wants to get revenge on the House whilst the other is trying to distance himself from it, the Lannisters are associated with many atrocities and so on, if that doesn't indicate Tywin's legacy is in the gutter I don't know what does. The only person who cries over Tywin's death is a cowardly old paedo, meanwhile Ned's memory is inspiring men to give their lives to save his daughter and avenge themselves upon those who betrayed the Starks.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

How so? I mean, Rickon is barely 6 and not the teenager he was in the abomination. 

I’m not so sure. Martin bears responsibility in how bad the abomination was. But imo his responsibility comes from picking two guys who were obviously not up to the task and who didn’t understand the story at all. And sure, it could have helped - to a degree - if he’d finished the story but it wouldn’t have saved it from being the disaster it was. After all, we know of a few instances where Martin specifically told them how/why they shouldn’t go a certain way and the show runners decided to to what they wanted anyway. All this is to say that even if they had the finished books, they still would probably have made poor choices thinking they knew better b/c they did do just that w/ material that had been published long before the deal for the show was made back in ‘07/’08. 

Did he want 12 series? I remember him saying he was hoping for one series per tome as published in the UK (so 2 series for ASoS etc). In fact, when he sod that it kind of sounded to me like this was more or less what they’d agreed on initially. 
And who knows, fair chance it wouldn’t have made any difference and we’d still be here waiting. Or maybe not. We’ll never know. 
 

I didn’t read/watch (?) FCKAD b/c of total lack of interest. Isn’t it by the guy from EW who was a huge D&D fanboy? Anyway, the general mood irt being on show being not great may have to do w/ other factors that are unrelated to the actual story and have instead to do w/ a less than great environment on set as per several accounts. If true, that’s something else that goes on the show runners tab and no one else’s imo. 

The adults? 

I like it! But truth be told, the show would have been infinitely better had someone like Abercrombie or Daniel Abraham or any actual good writer had written the material from s01e01! 

They went for a grimdark ending, but then shied away from it.  The Starks finished up like first season Lannisters, and if that’s the ending they wanted - of decent, idealistic people, becoming cruel, cynical, manipulative, then they ought to have owned it - as Abercrombie would have done.

 

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

They went for a grimdark ending, but then shied away from it.  The Starks finished up like first season Lannisters, and if that’s the ending they wanted - of decent, idealistic people, becoming cruel, cynical, manipulative, then they ought to have owned it - as Abercrombie would have done.

 

Yeah, I got that. My point was that the show could have been good if they had actual good writers from the get-go!

 

[Craving Peaches]

Tormund is annoying, his personality is basically just 'I have big penis', and the jokes get stale quickly.

[frenin]

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't really know what you are saying or why you are taking those two words out of context. I was clearly talking about child-raising ability where Ned obviously beats Tywin.

Which is as obvious as it is irrelevant, we all know Ned is a better father than Tywin.

The matter is that you're linking the situation that Tywin's house is heading to his failures but categorically refusing to acknowledge Ned's or his kid's part on the state their house currently is as of the end of the last book.

It's a weird double standard.

 

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

His 'prize' is that his children are relatively functional people whom are not destroying the House, unlike Tywin's children, but will rebuild it.

Tyrion will also rebuild his House so there's that.

 

17 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

House Lannister is collapsing specifically because of how bad a parent Tywin was.

And Ned's great parenting was explicitly what led him to follow his example and doom himself with both the Karstarks and Jeyne, ending in the complete collapse of his House.

 

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

House Stark collapsed due to bad luck/Lannisters getting lucky on multiple occasions

Indeed, House Stark never had luck on their side during their campaign. It was ofc brilliant strategist that not a single scout of Jaime was able to get a sniff of Robb's army, Robb's magical pet finding a convenient way to get to West unnoticed? Nothing to see here.

 

Come on, yeah the Lannisters were insanely lucky but let's not act the Starks weren't either, they just failed to capitalize it while the Lannisters were quick to do it.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

and Ned being inflexible with his code of honour.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Unlike House Lannister, House Stark appears to have a future.

House Lannisters has so many members it could create two or three full cadet branches lol. The idea that the dudes with infinite gold and a completely impregnable fortress are doomed but the ones led by children full of traumas and a realm facing zombies is... it's quite the take.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tywin here. It is clear (to me) from the text that his failure as a parent is going to ruin the House, ironic considering his concern with 'legacy', whereas Ned's good parenting has ensured that despite setbacks his House will live on.

See?

 

Quote

I love Ned with all my heart but these posts acting as if Tywin leaving his house in the strongest position possible while Ned leaving it in shambles is somehow a testament to his leadership can only be made with the belief that good is rewarded and evil is punished, if not it makes little to zero sense.

Literally my point.

 

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The adults? 

Should not have gotten the child to lead then. 

Plenty of Lords have regents for a reason. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

meanwhile Ned's memory is inspiring men to give their lives to save his daughter and avenge themselves upon those who betrayed the Starks.

And yet Tywin's men don't have to do that for his family because he left them in power.

 

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tywin was killed by his own son, his corpse is rotting and smelling at his funeral, his daughter has to walk naked through the streets, one son wants to get revenge on the House whilst the other is trying to distance himself from it, the Lannisters are associated with many atrocities and so on, if that doesn't indicate Tywin's legacy is in the gutter I don't know what does.

Tywin doesn't care about legacy in the books, in the show he very much does, but about his House surviving and ruling and in that aspect he is winning by a landslide.

I know, it's moving that after those terrible setbacks there are still men willing to fight and die for The Ned's memory but that doesn't change the fact.

 

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not so sure. Martin bears responsibility in how bad the abomination was. But imo his responsibility comes from picking two guys who were obviously not up to the task and who didn’t understand the story at all. And sure, it could have helped - to a degree - if he’d finished the story but it wouldn’t have saved it from being the disaster it was. After all, we know of a few instances where Martin specifically told them how/why they shouldn’t go a certain way and the show runners decided to to what they wanted anyway. All this is to say that even if they had the finished books, they still would probably have made poor choices thinking they knew better b/c they did do just that w/ material that had been published long before the deal for the show was made back in ‘07/’08. 

For four seasons D&D were responsible for some of the finest, if not the finest, television ever made, they not only adpatded but richly expanded the story most of the times and lots of characters benefited from it, especially Cersei but also LF, Varys, Robert etc.

Bar the Red Wedding, some of the most fondly remembered bits of the series were written by them from the  scratch, Varys and LF talking, the game of chairs, Cersei and Robert discussing the Dothraki invasion etc. 

When all started to go off the rails? In Season 5, once they went in deep unknown territory of unresolved plots, does it really matter that Martin tells them they should or shouldn't do this or that if Martin can't tell them why since not even himself knows why?

If Martin himself doesn't know how his story is going to go, his input is more confusing than helping. It is impossible to look at the first four seasons and the last fours and not notice a drop in quality as the books were ending or being replaced by dead ends (Dornish plot, Golden Company invasion, whatever there is in Mereen, Euron yadda yadda yadda).

That is not to say that they couldn't have made better choices, just that they were promised they would adapt a finished saga. Martin did not deliver, he procrastined and when the tide turned against D&D , he threw them under the bus, does anyone believes that 4-5 seasons more of roads to lead nowhere... would lead to somewhere?

[SeanF]

@freninI don’t think good necessarily triumphs.  I do think that evil is frequently self-defeating, and Tywin will ultimately only be known as the Hand Who Died on the Toilet.

[Craving Peaches]

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

The matter is that you're linking the situation that Tywin's house is heading to his failures but categorically refusing to acknowledge Ned's or his kid's part on the state their house currently is as of the end of the last book.

What I am saying is that House Stark fell due to bad luck and Ned trying to do what he thought was the right thing, whereas House Lannister is collapsing due to Tywin's failure as a parent.

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

Nothing to see here.

House Lannister gets free army spawns, gets really lucky that Robert dies, Renly dies, Renly and Stannis and Robb don't team up to fight them first and each other later, Dorne for some reason doesn't declare independence. Yeah Starks get lucky too but Lannisters get more lucky in my opinion. If Robert didn't die it would be them vs the rest of Westeros when Ned revealed the incest.

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

House Lannisters has so many members it could create two or three full cadet branches lol. The idea that the dudes with infinite gold and a completely impregnable fortress are doomed but the ones led by children full of traumas and a realm facing zombies is... it's quite the take.

I pointed out that it is only the 'main branch' of the House, Tywin's descendants, that I think are doomed...

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

Tywin doesn't care about legacy in the books

Yes he does, he's really concerned over the image of the House...

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

and Ned being inflexible with his code of honour.

Don't know why you are rolling eyes at this, if Ned hadn't given Cersei advanced warning and wasn't so rigid about Stannis being king the House would probably not be in such a bad position.

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

but about his House surviving and ruling and in that aspect he is winning by a landslide.

He's not really because the House is being ruined by his children. Cersei is close to ruining relations with the Tyrells, Tyrion is a fugitive, Jaime did not do what Tywin wanted at all. Tywin's branch of the House is doomed. Ned's isn't.

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

Tyrion will also rebuild his House so there's that

What makes you say that? 

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

See?

See what? I am not saying the Starks are going to win just because they are good people, in fact I expect they will have to act in a harsher manner to reclaim the North, but because Ned was a good parent. It is a specific message I am getting from the book here: raise children well. Children are the future after all...

Edited July 4, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What I am saying is that House Stark fell due to bad luck and Ned trying to do what he thought was the right thing, whereas House Lannister is collapsing due to Tywin's failure as a parent.

Ned not telling his son "you can have sex with a girl without being forced to marry her" seems a glaring failure as a parent that caused his son everything.

It seems to me that you're deciding what's luck and what's bad parenting rahter arbitrarily.

 

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

House Lannister gets free army spawns,

No it doesn't.

 

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

gets really lucky that Robert dies, Renly diesYeah Starks get lucky too but Lannisters get more lucky in my opinion.

All of that is true, it's not a competition tho, Robb could have tried and make an offer to the Tyrells, and so could have Stannis, they were up to their own asses and the Lannisters stole their thunder, shit happens.

The rest is not luck, it's flaw of characters.

 

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I pointed out that it is only the 'main branch' of the House, Tywin's descendants, that I think are doomed...

Now, still they are alive in the show, i have little reason to doubt it'd be different in the books as well. 

 

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes he does, he's really concerned over the image of the House...

Not to that neurotic point like in the show or what you allude, i don't really remember him making a mention about what the legacy of House Lannister w ould be in the books at all.

 

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Don't know why you are rolling eyes at this, if Ned hadn't given Cersei advanced warning and wasn't so rigid about Stannis being king the House would probably not be in such a bad position.

And if Jaime hadn't confessed the truth about Tysha, Tywin would not have been killed.

So many ifs.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He's not really because the House is being ruined by his children. Cersei is close to ruining relations with the Tyrells, Tyrion is a fugitive, Jaime did not do what Tywin wanted at all. Tywin's branch of the House is doomed. Ned's isn't.

1. The House is yet to be ruined by his children even tho they are making an spectacular effort to do so.
2. At this point, you're repeating a wish. Tywin's branch is still ruling and there's little that leads us to believe they are all going to die except that it'd be poetic justice. But let's recapitulate, Robb dead, Sansa trapped by a pedo, Arya assasin at the other side of the world, Rickon 6 yo, Jon dead, Bran tree beyond the wall.  Yeah...

 

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What makes you say that? 

The show.

Same as with the Stark children turning shit around.

 

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

See what? I am not saying the Starks are going to win just because they are good people, in fact I expect they will have to act in a harsher manner to reclaim the North, but because Ned was a good parent. It is a specific message I am getting from the book here: raise children well. Children are the future after all...

Well, yes, you kinda are.

You can be a terrible parent and your still turn around to be decent people and rulers, kinda like Aegon IV and his son, you can be a good or decent parent and your children turning out to be shit, kinda like Aegon and Aenys.

I don't think the books are making any parallel at all between Ned and Tywin but fans are. 

[Corvo the Crow]

17 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Da Vinci's flying corkscrew cannot flap. It could spin, though.

That's still miles away from a Hindenburg, much less an actual airplane. So dragons still win, lol.

Didn't he have designs for some ornithopter stuff as well?