How Come Robert Didn't cut Himself on the Iron Throne?

[Alester Florent]

9 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Which is, in part, because of his early death and the competence of his potential Targaryen pretender. Let's nor make Viserys a high bar to jump.

Well yeah, we don't know what would have happened had Robert (or Drogo) lived another five years, say. But when he took over, there were Targaryen loyalists throughout the Reach and Dorne, and probably scattered throughout the Westerlands, Riverlands and Vale too. Even in Robert's later reign when he's gone off the boil, there isn't a peep out of any of them. The only uprising Robert faces is from his former allies in the Iron Islands, who were just idiots. For a usurper to take over a kingdom and not face any loyalist rebellions or even meaningful resistance for fifteen years (or so) is actually a remarkable achievement.

Viserys is a fool, sure, but that wouldn't have stopped his being used as a figurehead had any of the loyalist factions actually kicked off. Varys and Doran were each separately plotting to put him on the throne. Part of the reason Viserys is stuck in exile and embittered is because none of the Targ loyalists feel strongly or confident enough to call him back: there's no doubt that had Dorne risen in his name, he'd have been on the first ship. That Dorne didn't rise is really down to Robert (or his administration), rather than Viserys.

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Well, yes, that's true, I just fail to see how he contributed to this prosperity. You can make the very same argument for Aerys II or Aegon IV.

I would have no problem arguing that Aerys II was a decent king had he died at Duskendale. Until that point, one could even argue that he was one of Westeros's better kings, if only on the "get out of the Hand's way and let him run things" principle (personally, I'm not sure, but I do think it's arguable). We don't actually know a lot about Aegon IV's policies (most of the information is about his personal life) but in terms of his actual kinging he might have been an adequate king right up to the end when with his final act he flipped the table.

What does for both of them in the analysis to date was the pointless spite and cruelty they displayed towards the end of their reigns which directly caused civil wars. Robert, by contrast, did everything he could to provide for a stable succession under competent stewardship. It's not (really) his fault that Ned, Stannis and Cersei tore that up.

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But okay, let's not make it bare minimum. Did he at least try? Or was he just lucky to have his tutor and best friend be decent enough? (Not as if this authority of him appointing the beurocrats of his state should only extend to the Hand of the King)

Well, let's look at the people selected for his small council. Barristan is a fine Lord Commander. Littlefinger is Westeros's premier financial brain. Varys is probably its best spymaster. Stannis is certainly in its top-tier admirals, and one can presume he's likely to be more reliable than, say, Victarion or a Redwyne. Renly we don't know much about, in-post, but I haven't seen any indication that he was anything other than competent and he was actively on Robert's side. Pycelle is appointed independently. Jon Arryn and Ned Stark were both excellent choices for Hand, in principle.

Now, we know that LF and Varys are not to be trusted, but Varys at least looks like the ideal public servant: he's non-factional and devoted to the idea of the realm (as he continues to protest to Ned after Ned's arrest). Varys does have a long-term plan to restore the Targs but in the meantime he uses his abilities to support Robert. And while LF ends up trashing Robert's succession, during Robert's actual reign his scheming and plotting is all related to his extracurricular interests. So far as we can tell, he was excellent at his actual job: he provided the king and the Hand with money, and continued to find new sources of revenue which had eluded his predecessors.

I think the readers have a relatively low opinion of Robert's small council because our only POV on it is Ned, who is mistrustful of them and their intrigues (and some of Ned's choices as to who to trust are in retrospect dreadful: he trusts LF, but not Renly, which was arguably Ned's single biggest mistake and for which there isn't any particularly good reason except that Ned seems to think he's a bit too good to be true), and because later events give us the benefit of hindsight as to their private motivations. But they were all, so far as we can tell, good, even very good, at their jobs, and insofar as pretty much anyone was capable of telling, were working in the interests of the king and the realm.

[Alester Florent]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Maybe Robert simply got too fat to sit on the throne in his later years?

From his conversation with Ned, it's pretty clear that he continued to sit it.

I don't think Robert was that fat. He could still get about and there was still muscle under the flab (even when we meet him, he's stronger than both Ned and Jaime). This isn't Henry VIII where he was mobility-limited due to injury and ended up getting so heavy he could barely move. Robert was overweight, sure, probably even obese in the BMI sense, but in the sense of an athlete gone to seed rather than the immobile couch potato.

55 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

The throne is not a conscious intelligence who judges the as$ sitting on it. Robert was not an evil person but his policies and his governing ruined what was once a prosperous Targaryen kingdom. A living throne, possessing of conscience, would have bled Robert to spare the people from the mass suffering he created. 

You're allowed to mention donkeys here without self-censoring, you konw.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

12 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

You're allowed to mention donkeys here without self-censoring, you know.

Does any character in the series actually use a donkey, other than maester Luwin?

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Darth Sidious said:

The throne is not a conscious intelligence who judges the as$ sitting on it. Robert was not an evil person but his policies and his governing ruined what was once a prosperous Targaryen kingdom. A living throne, possessing of conscience, would have bled Robert to spare the people from the mass suffering he created. 

The kingdom was largely ruined when he got it. The only big change was that Robert racked up debt, but the crown's incomes increased too. If he'd inherited it from Jaeherys the Wise or Daeron the Good, I'd definitely agree.

@Alester Florent I'd agree that Aerys was a good king up until Duskendale. Even if he left most of the governing up to Tywin. I'd disagree with Ned and Stannis tearing up the kingdom. I'd put the blame for that on Cersei primarily with Littlefinger and Jaime in the mix.

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[sifth]

10 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

 

@Alester Florent I'd agree that Aerys was a good king up until Duskendale. Even if he left most of the governing up to Tywin. I'd disagree with Ned and Stannis tearing up the kingdom. I'd put the blame for that on Cersei primarily with Littlefinger and Jaime in the mix.

 

Cersei for sure holds the most blame. The woman slept with her brother to produce Joffrey, possibly the worst living king we got in the series. Then she takes it a step further by murdering Robert, throwing the entire kingdom into chaos, because most of the lords have common sense and don't wish to swear themselves to a psychopath like Joffrey. Worst of all, in the books, Cersei seems completely unaware just how evil her son is.

[Lee-Sensei]

26 minutes ago, sifth said:

Cersei for sure holds the most blame. The woman slept with her brother to produce Joffrey, possibly the worst living king we got in the series. Then she takes it a step further by murdering Robert, throwing the entire kingdom into chaos, because most of the lords have common sense and don't wish to swear themselves to a psychopath like Joffrey. Worst of all, in the books, Cersei seems completely unaware just how evil her son is.

I think she's aware. I think that she doesn't care. At least in the books. She seems to view Joffrey as a strong man. She dislikes Tommen for not being more like Joffrey, even though that's what makes Tommen good. Tyrion was right. Joffrey would have been far worse than Aerys. Aerys was mostly okay until Duskendale. Joffrey showed signs of cruelty as a toddler.

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I'd disagree with Ned and Stannis tearing up the kingdom. I'd put the blame for that on Cersei primarily with Littlefinger and Jaime in the mix.

 

Cersei definitely holds the most blame and might well have kicked things off single-handed, but I don't think Ned and Stannis are wholly in the clear. Ned was planning to subvert the succession before Robert had even finished dictating it, and opted for continuing with that plan despite being warned that it would lead to war. And Stannis was planning for war even before Robert died. 

I think there's a version of events where Ned and Stannis accept Joff's succession at least in the short term, and the WotFK is largely averted.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Lee-Sensei]

37 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Cersei definitely holds the most blame and might well have kicked things off single-handed, but I don't think Ned and Stannis are wholly in the clear. Ned was planning to subvert the succession before Robert had even finished dictating it, and opted for continuing with that plan despite being warned that it would lead to war. And Stannis was planning for war even before Robert died. 

I think there's a version of events where Ned and Stannis accept Joff's succession at least in the short term, and the WotFK is largely averted.

Ned wasn't planning to subvert the succession. He was planning on allowing it to pass to Robert's rightful heir and before Robert's "accident", he was planning on telling Robert the truth. Do you think he should have let Joffrey have it? Stannis was planning for a war, because Cersei was trying to steal the throne through fraud. Neither of them would have ever accepted Joffrey's succession and they shouldn't have. He's a pure Lannister bastard and has no business being there, unlike the Baratheons or Targaryens. Robert made Ned the regent. Cersei just ignored his will to steal the throne.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I think she's aware. I think that she doesn't care. At least in the books. She seems to view Joffrey as a strong man. She dislikes Tommen for not being more like Joffrey, even though that's what makes Tommen good. Tyrion was right. Joffrey would have been far worse than Aerys. Aerys was mostly okay until Duskendale. Joffrey showed signs of cruelty as a toddler.

Cersei is possibly the worst hypocrite in the series. She claims Robert abused her and hates him for it, yet see's her own son do the same thing to Sansa and thinks it's perfectly acceptable. Even Joff stripping Sansa and pointed a crossbow at her, is perfectly fine in her mind.

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I think she's aware. I think that she doesn't care. At least in the books. She seems to view Joffrey as a strong man. She dislikes Tommen for not being more like Joffrey, even though that's what makes Tommen good. Tyrion was right. Joffrey would have been far worse than Aerys. Aerys was mostly okay until Duskendale. Joffrey showed signs of cruelty as a toddler.

Among her many, many flaws, Cersei confuses force of personality with strength of character. Compromise, patience, in fact any kind of learning, development or growth, she sees as a sign of weakness. Never change course, even, indeed especially, when you're wrong. Joffrey is his mother's son in this respect and she views it as a virtue. Tommen listens to advice and takes it on board and she sees it as pathetic.

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

Cersei is possibly the worst hypocrite in the series. She claims Robert abused her and hates him for it, yet see's her own son do the same thing to Sansa and thinks it's perfectly acceptable. Even Joff stripping Sansa and pointed a crossbow at her, is perfectly fine in her mind.

Joffrey would have been 1000x worse to Sansa. Even before the marriage he had her stripped and beaten in front of the court. Cersei just has no problem with it. Like when she blamed Lollys for "getting herself" raped by half of Kings Landing or when she said that a bunch of Septas were probably praying for rape. She's a massive hypocrite as you say.

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Among her many, many flaws, Cersei confuses force of personality with strength of character. Compromise, patience, in fact any kind of learning, development or growth, she sees as a sign of weakness. Never change course, even, indeed especially, when you're wrong. Joffrey is his mother's son in this respect and she views it as a virtue. Tommen listens to advice and takes it on board and she sees it as pathetic.

I'm not sure if Tommen has the makings of a good king. He's kind of weak, but that can change. But he'd be a lot better than Joffrey or Cersei. I feel really bad for him.

[sifth]

7 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I'm not sure if Tommen has the makings of a good king. He's kind of weak, but that can change. But he'd be a lot better than Joffrey or Cersei. I feel really bad for him.

Myrcella seems really nice as well, from what little we've seen of her. It's interesting that despite having horrible parents like Robert and Cersei, two of their three kids turned out normal.

[Lee-Sensei]

16 minutes ago, sifth said:

Myrcella seems really nice as well, from what little we've seen of her. It's interesting that despite having horrible parents like Robert and Cersei, two of their three kids turned out normal.

I'd blame Cersei for those kids. Jaime too actually, since they're actually his kids and he was living right there. Edric got to spend time with Robert and modeled himself on his father. He turned out fine. Yes. I know that Cortnay Penrose was the primary guardian of Edric, but it's indicative that Robert wasn't the problem. And to be fair, I think that Jaime could probably be okay too if he actually acted like a parent.

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I'd blame Cersei for those kids. Jaime too actually, since they're actually his kids and he was living right there. Edric got to spend time with Robert and modeled himself on his father. He turned out fine. Yes. I know that Cortnay Penrose was the primary guardian of Edric, but it's indicative that Robert wasn't the problem. And to be fair, I think that Jaime could probably be okay too if he actually acted like a parent.

Wasn't it stated at one point that Cersei kept Jaime away from the kids, in part so that nobody noticed the similarity?

[Lee-Sensei]

37 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Wasn't it stated at one point that Cersei kept Jaime away from the kids, in part so that nobody noticed the similarity?

It's said here, but there's a key part to this.

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Jaime had seen him born, that was true, though more for Cersei than the child. But he had never held him. “How would it look?” his sister warned him when the women finally left them. “Bad enough Joff looks like you without you mooning over him.” Jaime yielded with hardly a fight. The boy had been a squalling pink thing who demanded too much of Cersei’s time, Cersei’s love, and Cersei’s breasts. Robert was welcome to him.

He just wasn't that interested. Not in being a father or even an uncle to these kids. He does become more interested later tbf. By AFFC, he's decided to separate Tommen from Cersei so she can't ruin him. Robert, Jaime, Tyrion, Tywin (who has his own problems to be fair) and Kevan all agree that Cersei was the problem with Joffrey.

[Daeron the Daring]

19 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I think the readers have a relatively low opinion of Robert's small council because our only POV on it is Ned, who is mistrustful of them and their intrigues (and some of Ned's choices as to who to trust are in retrospect dreadful: he trusts LF, but not Renly, which was arguably Ned's single biggest mistake and for which there isn't any particularly good reason except that Ned seems to think he's a bit too good to be true), and because later events give us the benefit of hindsight as to their private motivations. But they were all, so far as we can tell, good, even very good, at their jobs, and insofar as pretty much anyone was capable of telling, were working in the interests of the king and the realm.

I guess I've made my point, you made yours. I disagree, and I would have stuff to disagree with that I haven't expressed yet, but let's just leave this behind.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

20 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

he trusts LF, but not Renly, which was arguably Ned's single biggest mistake

Following Renly’s plan would have been fine if they gave the throne to Stannis afterwards, but Renly wanted it for himself.

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Following Renly’s plan would have been fine if they gave the throne to Stannis afterwards, but Renly wanted it for himself.

No he didn't, that is a show-only thing. Renly was fine with Joffrey as king as long as Ned was regent and Cersei was not.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

55 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Renly was fine with Joffrey as king as long as Ned was regent and Cersei was not.

Yes, you're right. And earlier he toyed with the idea of replacing Cersei with Margaery at Robert's side.

With that in mind, one would think that Renly was simply anti-Lannister, but if so, why didn't he support Stannis in his fight against them?

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

With that in mind, one would think that Renly was simply anti-Lannister, but if so, why didn't he support Stannis in his fight against them?

Because, when everything goes wrong and Renly has to make decisions quickly, he has no idea what Stannis is planning because Stannis tells no one. By the time he has an opportunity to 'support' Stannis, it is too late and would be a bad decision for multiple reasons, for one it would weaken the anti-Lannister faction.