"...might she have looked to me instead of (Lyanna) Stark"

[Tradecraft]

Quote

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

 

"looked to Stark"

What does it mean?

Luckily the culprit always returns to the scene of the crime. 

Quote

His sister seldom wept but when she was with him. She could not stand for others to think her weak. Only to her twin did she show her wounds. She will look to me for comfort and revenge. -Jaime VII, ASOS

Again

Quote

Go where you want and do as you will . . . but when you're raped don't look to me for justice. You will have earned it with your folly." 

And Again 

Quote

Reek." He grabbed her arm and shook her. "In here I'm Reek. You have to remember, Arya." But the girl was no true Stark, only a steward's whelp. Jeyne, her name is Jeyne. She should not look to me for rescue. Theon Greyjoy might have tried to help her, once. But Theon had been ironborn, and a braver man than Reek. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with weak.

To me: Ashara is looking to Stark for one of two things: revenge or justice (like Cersei and Brienne) or rescue (like Jeyne Pool with Theon). More on that in a moment. 

 

 

We don't know which Stark. Luckily  there are only know of a couple;

1. Rickard

2. Brandon

3. Eddard

4. Lyanna

5. Benjen. 

I think we can safely rule out Benjen and Rickard. One is too young and the other is too old. 

Barry is mixing two things in this recollection. 

1. Romance and all that junk

2. Physical strength and power (he's talking about fighting in the Tourney... Where everyone is losing or rolling over for Rhaegar... Like Selmy did.). 

While Selmy desired/wanted Ashara Dayne, I don't think she is looking to the Stark for desire. I think she's looking for the other reasons I mentioned above (revenge or rescue). 

She does not need immediate rescue from anyone. Even if there was a close threat, why not go back to Starfall? Nobody can harm her at her family castle. Not impossible, but let's put a pin in this one for later.

What about revenge or justice? She was dishonored at Harrenhal, according to Barristan. 

Dishonor is the key word. The Dishonor could be what caused her lost baby girl. 

It also could have been that Lyanna being crowned was the dishonor. If Rhaegar was intimate with Ashara and he gave the crown to some northerm girl, that could have Dishonored her. It also could have driven her to revenge. 

*I also think there's another scenario which I have not alluded to;

Ashara could have thought Lyanna was the Knight of The Laughing Tree. She might have looked for her protection. Around this time Rhaegar was looking for someone to have his 3rd child. Ashara is the perfect candidate, even better than Lyanna (considered to be a child in Ned's eyes). No one in Westeros seems capable of standing up to Rhaegar, not even Brandon Stark. Lyanna though? Lyanna can be by her side at all times? Even travel with her to places only women can go. Like Jonquil Darke and Alyssane. 

So the stark in my opinion is either Brandon or Lyanna. Brandon is the obvious/easy answer but I feel like those types of answers are traps. It's too neat. 

Why'd she look? For Brandon, it must be revenge against Rhaegar. For Lyanna, it might be for revenge (against her AND Rhaegar) or, also for protection from Rhaegar. 

 

Either way, not looking good for Ashara. 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Tradecraft

[Craving Peaches]

I think because it's Barristan saying it, I assume it is a male Stark, either Ned or Brandon. In all the other 'turn to...' examples you have, it is a man talking to a woman, the opposite gender, so based on that I would expect the Stark to be a male. I don't know whether anyone knew Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree (if she was), because the mystery knight never took off their helmet and afterwards Aerys got paranoid and started hunting for them. Not a good time to reveal it to anyone.

3 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Ashara is the perfect candidate

Anything in particular that makes you think this?

[Tradecraft]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think because it's Barristan saying it, I assume it is a male Stark, either Ned or Brandon. In all the other 'turn to...' examples you have, it is a man talking to a woman, the opposite gender, so based on that I would expect the Stark to be a male. I don't know whether anyone knew Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree (if she was), because the mystery knight never took off their helmet and afterwards Aerys got paranoid and started hunting for them. Not a good time to reveal it to anyone.

Anything in particular that makes you think this?

Ned is a false choice. There isn't anything Ned can provide that Brandon can't also provide. He's basically redundant. 

Ashara could have been a clever girl and made the connection between; kotlt + Rhaegar looking him + the crown for Lyanna. 

Ashara doesn't need to know anything ro want revenge. If it's that option. 

[Tradecraft]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think because it's Barristan saying it, I assume it is a male Stark, either Ned or Brandon. In all the other 'turn to...' examples you have, it is a man talking to a woman, the opposite gender, so based on that I would expect the Stark to be a male. I don't know whether anyone knew Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree (if she was), because the mystery knight never took off their helmet and afterwards Aerys got paranoid and started hunting for them. Not a good time to reveal it to anyone.

Anything in particular that makes you think this?

Ashara is fully grown woman. Healthy. 
I'm assuming her hotness is not just in her face. Idk if anyone talked about her hips and breasts, but for her level of hotness (catching the eye of a Kingsguard surrounded by the richest and most pretty women in the realm) she should have the full deal. It's not stated in the books that she has a great body. But I think it's safe to assume. 

Contrast this with Lyanna who Ned calls a "child woman". This makes me think; small stature, skinny, not wide hips, no breasts to speak of. 

 

*I'm not trying to be mean about those body types. But one is historically proven to do well when it comes to giving babies. The other can deliver children but it's much harder. It's also harder for them to give milk to the babies. Not ideal from a prophetic weirdo like Rhaegar. 
 

If you're Rhaegar, do you go for the hottest of your wife's handmaidens (sister to your Kingsguard best friend) who is around your family all the time

OR,

go for some Northern girl (probably flatchested, no hips... not good for birthing, very young... risky for child bearing if they're too young)? 

 

If, I'm Rhaegar I'm going to Ashara 9 times out of 10. It's easier, he knows Ashara better/knows her family, She even looks kinda like a Targaryen. 

Rhaegar's been thinking about this stuff for a while and he picks Lyanna to have his kid on impulse? No plan?

The important 3rd head of the dragon and, Rhaegar is "winging" it?

IDK man. He doesn't seem impulsive to me. 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Tradecraft

[Hippocras]

12 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

 

To me: Ashara is looking to Stark for one of two things: revenge or justice (like Cersei and Brienne) or rescue (like Jeyne Pool with Theon). More on that in a moment. 

 

Thank-you for gathering the examples of how the language is used.

I am not sure though that those are the only things. I would add simple help to the the list. Not all ladies in distress need to be rescued after all! Ashara may have had a plan that needed helpers to carry out, or some kind of situation that she did not have the capacity to resolve herself.

 

It is also of course possible that she was pregnant already and was looking for someone to marry who might accept her bastard in the family. In that case Ned seems like a decent candidate. A nice man, available (at the time) for marriage, who would let her raise her bastard within their home.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Hippocras

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

It is also of course possible that she was pregnant already and was looking for someone to marry who might accept her bastard in the family. In that case Ned seems like a decent candidate. A nice man, available (at the time) for marriage, who would let her raise her bastard within their home.

Ummm… what makes you think that Ned or any other men, especially of his status would want to marry a woman so he can raise her bastard? Highborn lady doing some premarital sex = immediate devaluation of her marriage  value. no bastard even needed.  Lysa actually got a pretty good deal considering how Westeros works, from what we’ve seen, usually it’s off to household knight for them.

 

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ummm… what makes you think that Ned or any other men, especially of his status would want to marry a woman so he can raise her bastard? Highborn lady doing some premarital sex = immediate devaluation of her marriage  value. no bastard even needed.  Lysa actually got a pretty good deal considering how Westeros works, from what we’ve seen, usually it’s off to household knight for them.

It really very much depends on the situation doesn't it? We don't actually know why and how Ashara ended up pregnant.

Don't worry, I won't put you in the same category as Ned. You know, someone who would do something because it is the decent thing to do.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Hippocras

[Corvo the Crow]

57 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

It really very much depends on the situation doesn't it? We don't actually know why and how Ashara ended up pregnant.

Don't worry, I won't put you in the same category as Ned. You know, someone who would do something because it is the decent thing to do.

 

I bet medieaval lords, both in our world and Westeros, were lining up to marry women so they can raise their bastards together because it was a pretty decent thing 

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ummm… what makes you think that Ned or any other men, especially of his status would want to marry a woman so he can raise her bastard?

Even if Ned did, Rickard would probably veto...

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Don't worry, I won't put you in the same category as Ned. You know, someone who would do something because it is the decent thing to do.

Sorry if this sounds dense, but is this meant to be a joke? I find it hard to tell without tone of voice/facial expression.

[Hippocras]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Even if Ned did, Rickard would probably veto...

Not sure about that. Rickard was trying to make alliances further South after all, and House Dayne is a very very significant one.

Just because Ashara was having one bastard does not mean she would not have more children later with Ned.

Anyway, yes, I was simply listing possibilities other than revenge etx. for Ashara's motives. Simple help can mean many things, and helping her with a sticky situation like that is just one possibility of many. So I don't really want to get in a long discussion over how likely or not likely this particular example is.

[Tradecraft]

Nobody has commented on Ashara wanting revenge on Lyanna or Rhaegar.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

Nobody has commented on Ashara wanting revenge on Lyanna or Rhaegar.

Sorry Tradecraft 

I don't have many ideas just now. I think I need more information to go on. Maybe next book...

[Mourning Star]

On 7/13/2023 at 6:49 AM, Tradecraft said:

Ned is a false choice. There isn't anything Ned can provide that Brandon can't also provide. He's basically redundant. 

I don’t know how you can say this.

Ned is unpromised, which seems extremely relevant given the topic at hand. He also seemingly genuinely likes Ashara.

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

 …

When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Tradecraft]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I don’t know how you can say this.

Ned is unpromised, which seems extremely relevant given the topic at hand. He also seemingly genuinely likes Ashara.

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

 …

When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.

From your own quote it shows Ashara was not interested in Ned. 

But Brandon has influence. If she liked anyone it's him. 

Makes sense. Dornish women are much more independent than the rest of Westerosi women. 

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

One thing about conspiracies in asoiaf is that some specific characters are accused of crimes they didn't commit to cause chaos and wars between great houses. We see this with tyrion for example where he is accused and arrested for sending assassins to kill bran and then chaos ensues and the lannisters and starks start a war against each other. This could possibly have been the case with rhaegar as well. Him being accused of kidnapping lyanna and the baratheons and starks starting a rebellion against house targaryen. 

Rhaegar might actually be a red herring to the real father of lyanna's bastard (jon snow) and lyanna being a red herring to the real mother (ashara) of rhaegar's third child (dany). It makes much more sense for ashara to be the mother of rhaegar's third child not just because ashara has the oldest first men blood but because she was friends with both elia and probably rhaegar as well.

Also I think it's very possible that rhaegar, elia and ashara were a love triangle and that ashara was the woman that rhaegar loved. Rhaegar giving the crown of roses to lyanna just so he doesn't have to choose between ashara and elia and end up causing conflicts between his wife and the woman he loves. rhaegar was a smart man, him giving the crown of roses to lyanna in front of everyone and insulting not only his wife but her family? Doesn't seem smart to me.

[Mourning Star]

37 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

From your own quote it shows Ashara was not interested in Ned. 
 

How? What part of either of those quotes shows that Ashara was not interested in Ned. Even if that were true it still doesn’t change my point.

37 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

But Brandon has influence. If she liked anyone it's him. 

You are just making statements with no basis in the text.

There is a case to be made that Brandon and Ashara were a thing, but you are not making anything resembling a convincing case here.

37 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Makes sense. Dornish women are much more independent than the rest of Westerosi women. 

I have no idea what this is in relation to or why you are saying it. Lyanna seemed pretty independent, as do other women in the story. Maybe you are referring to inheritance rights or something…

[Tradecraft]

23 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

How? What part of either of those quotes shows that Ashara was not interested in Ned. Even if that were true it still doesn’t change my point.

You are just making statements with no basis in the text.

There is a case to be made that Brandon and Ashara were a thing, but you are not making anything resembling a convincing case here.

I have no idea what this is in relation to or why you are saying it. Lyanna seemed pretty independent, as do other women in the story. Maybe you are referring to inheritance rights or something…

Why would Ashara want Ned over his stronger, more confident, more powerful brother?

Ned has nothing to offer Ashara. Brandon gets everything. 

[Mourning Star]

15 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Why would Ashara want Ned over his stronger, more confident, more powerful brother?

Ned has nothing to offer Ashara. Brandon gets everything. 

Absolutely wild response 

If you are being serious I am deeply sorry for you, that’s a heartbreaking worldview

In addition, Brandon has nothing monetarily to offer since he’s promised to marry Cat. Also, there is no mention of Ashara wedding plans at all, which would presumably have been made by the male head of House Dayne and not her anyway.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Castellan]

On 7/13/2023 at 1:35 PM, Tradecraft said:

 

"looked to Stark"

What does it mean?

Luckily the culprit always returns to the scene of the crime. 

Again

And Again 

To me: Ashara is looking to Stark for one of two things: revenge or justice (like Cersei and Brienne) or rescue (like Jeyne Pool with Theon). More on that in a moment. 

 

 

We don't know which Stark. Luckily  there are only know of a couple;

1. Rickard

2. Brandon

3. Eddard

4. Lyanna

5. Benjen. 

I think we can safely rule out Benjen and Rickard. One is too young and the other is too old. 

Barry is mixing two things in this recollection. 

1. Romance and all that junk

2. Physical strength and power (he's talking about fighting in the Tourney... Where everyone is losing or rolling over for Rhaegar... Like Selmy did.). 

While Selmy desired/wanted Ashara Dayne, I don't think she is looking to the Stark for desire. I think she's looking for the other reasons I mentioned above (revenge or rescue). 

She does not need immediate rescue from anyone. Even if there was a close threat, why not go back to Starfall? Nobody can harm her at her family castle. Not impossible, but let's put a pin in this one for later.

What about revenge or justice? She was dishonored at Harrenhal, according to Barristan. 

Dishonor is the key word. The Dishonor could be what caused her lost baby girl. 

It also could have been that Lyanna being crowned was the dishonor. If Rhaegar was intimate with Ashara and he gave the crown to some northerm girl, that could have Dishonored her. It also could have driven her to revenge. 

*I also think there's another scenario which I have not alluded to;

Ashara could have thought Lyanna was the Knight of The Laughing Tree. She might have looked for her protection. Around this time Rhaegar was looking for someone to have his 3rd child. Ashara is the perfect candidate, even better than Lyanna (considered to be a child in Ned's eyes). No one in Westeros seems capable of standing up to Rhaegar, not even Brandon Stark. Lyanna though? Lyanna can be by her side at all times? Even travel with her to places only women can go. Like Jonquil Darke and Alyssane. 

So the stark in my opinion is either Brandon or Lyanna. Brandon is the obvious/easy answer but I feel like those types of answers are traps. It's too neat. 

Why'd she look? For Brandon, it must be revenge against Rhaegar. For Lyanna, it might be for revenge (against her AND Rhaegar) or, also for protection from Rhaegar. 

 

Either way, not looking good for Ashara. 

 

I don’t think he would have referred to Lyanna, a woman, as 'Stark'. The contexts where people refer to others by their surname only are pretty limited, in our culture, which the book is derived from, and I think in the books, although I haven’t headed off to investigate that. Even more so for women. Men or boys might sometimes refer to fellow students or co-workers by surname (though not in my experience - I think I get this vague idea from US films). It sounds very peculiar to me that Barristan would refer to Lyanna as ‘Stark’.

I have to say, rereading the passage, that GRRM has done a masterly job of including quite a bit of information but still leaving the facts up in the air.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Castellan
changed my mind

[Nevets]

7 hours ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

One thing about conspiracies in asoiaf is that some specific characters are accused of crimes they didn't commit to cause chaos and wars between great houses. We see this with tyrion for example where he is accused and arrested for sending assassins to kill bran and then chaos ensues and the lannisters and starks start a war against each other. This could possibly have been the case with rhaegar as well. Him being accused of kidnapping lyanna and the baratheons and starks starting a rebellion against house targaryen. 

Rhaegar might actually be a red herring to the real father of lyanna's bastard (jon snow) and lyanna being a red herring to the real mother (ashara) of rhaegar's third child (dany). It makes much more sense for ashara to be the mother of rhaegar's third child not just because ashara has the oldest first men blood but because she was friends with both elia and probably rhaegar as well.

Also I think it's very possible that rhaegar, elia and ashara were a love triangle and that ashara was the woman that rhaegar loved. Rhaegar giving the crown of roses to lyanna just so he doesn't have to choose between ashara and elia and end up causing conflicts between his wife and the woman he loves. rhaegar was a smart man, him giving the crown of roses to lyanna in front of everyone and insulting not only his wife but her family? Doesn't seem smart to me.

No way.  Tyrion proclaimed his innocence loudly, insistently, and repeatedly.  Rhaegar did no such thing.

Lyanna is a 14 year old girl from a powerful noble family betrothed to a Lord.  She is not going to be riding around unescorted.  Period.  Not happening.  So there would be witnesses.  And Rhaegar would identify himself so the Whents don't send out search parties with shoot on sight orders.

Also, Rhaegar never denied it.  Every account we've had says he did it, even from his own side.  And not one character has so much as hinted that he wasn't responsible.  They may wonder why he did it, but nobody doubts he did.

I am inclined to think he was motivated by prophecy, and believed that Lyanna was the key to its fulfillment.  I don't know if it was pre-arranged, but I doubt she was surprised.

As to whom Ashara turned to, I think it was most likely Ned.  He has been linked multiple times to Ashara, so they may have had interest in one another.  It's also quite possible that she is the original source for how Ned found Lyanna.