How controversial is the Quentyn being alive theory on here?

[Gilbert Green]

23 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I get why fans theorize about Quentyn being secretly alive, somehow. I just don't agree with it.

We're just following the clues.  GRRM careflly set up all the elements of a fake-out death, and we just happened to notice.

But when we point these things out, the response is some variant of "NO NO NO NO NO.  We don't WANT that."

23 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

What makes Quentyn's story meaningful is that he didn't have to make the choices he did. He could have stayed home. He should have turned back. Quentyn, like 99.9% of all of humanity, was just not cut out for being a hero like in the stories. Heroes get rewarded for being brave and stupid. But that gets you killed more often than not. Quentyn's own fruitless attempts to be the hero of his own story got him killed. And that is tragic.

To each his own.  I just don't think GRRM should be writing a multi-chapter paen to nihilistic despair when he is supposed to be trying to finish the series.  I don't suggest Frog being alive will necessarily be good writing either.  I'm just saying, we noticed some clues, and these clues suggest Frog is still alive.

Also, if the foregoing were the real point of all this, why not have Quentyn think these thoughts in his own POV chapter as he lies dying on Dany's bed?  He is a POV character after all.

Instead we get a burnt-beyond-recognition man who says small little things like, "yes, please" and "water" and "thank you" while being tended by Missandei, and who does not protest when addressed as "prince".  Meanwhile, the real Frog could easily be elsewhere.

23 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

So if Quentyn somehow popped back into the story, it wouldn't be cool, or exciting, or fun. It would be confusing and pointless and sad. It would be a cheap "gotcha" twist by an author who just doesn't do that. I think George R. R. Martin ultimately respects his audience far more than D and D ever did.

This is just "NO NO NO -- we don't WANT" stuff.

Okay.  Maybe it will suck.  We're still just following the clues though.

I think Frog has already popped up, in an offscreen kind of way, in a sample WINDS chapter.  Tyrion missed it though, because he was in his tent when it happened.

Dany spend an entire book dithering.  And one of the things she dithered about was her idea that she needed dragon riders before she can go west.  It appears, per the theory, that Frog may have actually tamed a dragon, which, BTW, she explicitly invited him to do.   Hate it all you want, but she may now be one step closer to heading West, rather than having to start from scratch.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Gilbert Green]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I've not seen anyone who 'hates' it, just people who think it's implausible.

People do hate the theory.  And yes, I suppose there are also some who just think it is implausible.

[Gilbert Green]

51 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Hmm, I always interpreted it as them hiding the fact they want to leave and go back to Dorne, since they blame Daenerys for ruining Quentyn's mission.

But it has been a while since I read that book...

It is kind of hard just to head back to Dorne.  Meereen is under siege.

Also, something happens in a sample WINDS chapter that implies their mission succeeded.

[Gilbert Green]

19 hours ago, sifth said:

I hate this theory, we literally see the guy get burnt in his own POV. 

@Craving Peaches, as you can see, people do hate the theory.  They don't just find it implausible.  They hate it.  Don't know why.  But there you have it.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

@Craving Peaches, as you can see, people do hate the theory.  They don't just find it implausible.  They hate it.  Don't know why.  But there you have it.

I personally don't have the energy to hate any theories...

[Gilbert Green]

19 hours ago, sifth said:

we literally see the guy get burnt in his own POV. 

This of course is true only in the sense that it is also true of Dany.  Similar language even is used.  Furnace wind.  Burning. 

Difference is that Frog does start screaming.  But that might be panic and/or other emotions, rather than pain.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

This of course is true only in the sense that it is also true of Dany.  Similar language even is used.  Furnace wind.  Burning. 

Difference is that Frog does start screaming.  But that might be panic and/or other emotions, rather than pain.

Let me put it this way. Quentyn still being alive, makes as much sense as the fake Laenor death House of the Dragon gave us. In other words, it's too convoluted to make sense. Quentyn would literally have to be immune to dragon fire, the Tattered Prince or another person would have to be burn, yet not eaten close by, and just randomly on the spot Quentyn would have to come up with this plan to fake his death............because reasons. Literally just typing this out is hurting my head, because the logic behind it is random and stupid at best.

We saw Quentyn burn in his own POV, we saw a burnt body that was his own height and measurement die in Dany's bed and we saw Quentyn's friends protect this body and get very upset that the person died. I don't know how more cut and dry GRRM can make things.

Edited July 23, 2023 by sifth

[Crona]

Honestly, I think GRRM just doesn’t know if he wants him alive or dead. There is one thing I want to point out:

In the Dragontamer chapter, Quentyn, Gerris, and Arch all wear brass masks

"I'll be the bull," Arch announced.

Quentyn handed him the bull mask. "The lion for me."

"Which makes a monkey out of me." Gerris pressed the ape mask to his face. "How do they breathe in these things?"

"Just put it on." The prince was in no mood for japes.

Quentyn wears the mask while going into the dragon pit and doesn't take off the mask.  This scene with the brass mask in the dragonpit is also in the 2021 a song of ice and fire calendar (just Google it)

Here is a description of what happens to someone who has the mask on while being burned:

The crossbowman was fumbling for another quarrel as the dragon's teeth closed around his neck. The man wore the mask of a Brazen Beast, the fearsome likeness of a tiger. As he dropped his weapon to try and pry apart Viserion's jaws, flame gouted from the tiger's mouth. The man's eyes burst with soft popping sounds, and the brass around them began to run. The dragon tore off a hunk of flesh, most of the sellsword's neck, then gulped it down as the burning corpse collapsed to the floor.

So the brass melts

Here is the body Barristan sees:

How can you tell? He has no lips. It would have been kinder if the dragons had devoured him. That at least would have been quick. This … Fire is a hideous way to die. Small wonder half the hells are made of flame. "Cover him."

the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell's face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus. 

No mention of melted brass 

here is the section they found his body:

Neither of the Dornishmen had offered any resistance. Archibald Yronwood had been cradling his prince's scorched and smoking body when the Brazen Beasts had found him, as his burned hands could testify. He had used them to beat out the flames that had engulfed Quentyn Martell. Gerris Drinkwater was standing over them with sword in hand, but he had dropped the blade the moment the locusts had appeared. "They share a cell.

At his command, Quentyn Martell had been laid out in the queen's own bed. He had been a knight, and a prince of Dorne besides. It seemed only kind to let him die in the bed he had crossed half a world to reach. The bedding was ruined—sheets, covers, pillows, mattress, all reeked of blood and smoke, but Ser Barristan thought Daenerys would forgive him.

Missandei sat at the bedside. She had been with the prince night and day, tending to such needs as he could express, giving him water and milk of the poppy when he was strong enough to drink, listening to the few tortured words he gasped out from time to time, reading to him when he fell quiet, sleeping in her chair beside him. Ser Barristan had asked some of the queen's cupbearers to help, but the sight of the burned man was too much for even the boldest of them. And the Blue Graces had never come, though he'd sent for them four times. Perhaps the last of them had been carried off by the pale mare by now

No mention of any mask or melted brass

So what happened to Quentyn's mask? 
 

I think GRRM wants to keep the possibility Quentyn alive open so he can use him if he needs it. 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Crona

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

Let me put it this way. Quentyn still being alive, makes as much sense as the fake Laenor death House of the Dragon gave us.

I don't watch the show.  So that means nothing to me.

5 hours ago, sifth said:

In other words, it's too convoluted to make sense.

Every convolution is backed by evidence. 

It may be an overcomplicated setup.  But it is an overcomplicated setup carefully set up by GRRM.  Some fans just noticed.  That's all.  And then haters got mad.

5 hours ago, sifth said:

Quentyn would literally have to be immune to dragon fire, ...

No.  The theory does not require that at all.  The theory does not claim he was completely uninjured (though perhaps that is one possibility).  A little fire resistance might help, or a fire resistant mystical experience. But we have already seen Dany have 2 such experiences.  Why can't Frog have such an experience, as he bonds with his dragon?  Because Dany has to be the most super-special girl in the whole universe? 

Even burnt-beyond-recognition-man survived for 3 days.  The theory only requires that Frog be not so badly injured. 

5 hours ago, sifth said:

 the Tattered Prince or another person would have to be burn, yet not eaten close by,

People WERE close by, Dude.  I'm sorry you don't like it, but it is true.   They were dressed identical to Frog.   I'm sorry that you HATE HATE HATE it, but GRRM set it up, not me.

8-9 people (I forget) and 2 dragons were present.  The crossbowman got killed.  Then stuff happens off screen.  By the time the guards arrive 2 dragons and 4-5 humans (I forget) have left the scene.   4 humans remain - (1) Archie, (2) Gerris, (3) half-eaten crossbowman, and (4) burnt-beyond-recognition man.

So why exactly MUST we assume that the burnt-beyond-recognition-man is Frog and not Tatters (or whoever)? 

Because if we don't @sifth will get really really mad.  REALLY mad.  It will hurt his head.  There is no other reason.

I really love your idea that burnt-beyond-recognition-man not being eaten proves he is Frog and not Tatters.  I guess Tatters tastes better or something?  So if burnt-beyond-recognition-man were yummy Tatters instead of yucky Frog, Rhaegal would have taken a bite or two?

5 hours ago, sifth said:

 and just randomly on the spot Quentyn would have to come up with this plan to fake his death............

No.  All Frog has to do is leave the scene.  Probably with Viserion.  Or Viserion leaves with Frog (just as Drogon took off with Dany).  In any event, they leave together.

I would imagine that burning somebody beyond recognition was probably an idea one of the dragons came up with on his own.  It's the sort of thing they like to do, being dragons and all.

Then the guards find the 3 survivors together and assume the 3rd man is Frog.  All Archie and Gerris do is not correct their mistake.

5 hours ago, sifth said:

Literally just typing this out is hurting my head, because the logic behind it is random and stupid at best.

Oh you poor dear thing.

@Craving Peaches, I offer exhibit A.  A hater.  He is not merely unconvinced.  It literally hurts his head. 

I guess the good news is that he can't blame me.  I didn't even start this thread. 

5 hours ago, sifth said:

We saw Quentyn burn in his own POV,

We saw him burn, but we did not see him burn fatally.  We have seen the same thing happen to Dany, and she does not seem too much the worse for wear.

5 hours ago, sifth said:

we saw a burnt body that was his own height and measurement die in Dany's bed

Frog is an ordinary-looking guy.  Plenty of people are of his own height and measurements.  And one of them is apparently Prince Tatters.

Frog is a guy of ordinary height with short legs.

Tatters is an ordinary-lookin guy who looks impressive on a horse, but less impressive otherwise.  So he too probably has short legs.

5 hours ago, sifth said:

and we saw Quentyn's friends protect this body

The guards found them together.  At that time, Gerris wanted to slit Tatters' throat, and Archie was trying to stop him.

Gerris drops the sword the instant the guards arrive.  What was he intending to to with it before they arrived?  Fight a dragon in case one returned?  He certainly wasn't planning to fight the guards.  Was he afraid the half-eaten crossbowman would rise as a zombie? 

5 hours ago, sifth said:

 and get very upset that the person died.

Gerris gets very upset.  GERRIS.  Not Archie.

Gerris is fake-grief man.  He is previously established in the text as being very good at fake grief, but incapable of real grief. 

Don't blame me.  Blame GRRM.  He set it up that way.

5 hours ago, sifth said:

I don't know how more cut and dry GRRM can make things.

I can think of a few things.

(1) he could have had burnt-beyond-recognition-man not be quite so burnt-beyond-recognition.  There are all kinds of ways to be fatally injured without being rendered unrecognizable.

(2) He could have had Frog, who supposedly lived on for 3 days, actually die in his own POV, as he thinks back sadly on his failed hopes.

(3) He could have had Frog, who supposedly lived on for 3 days, actually say things, to Missanei and/or Barristan, that tend to confirm his identity.

(4) He could have arranged so that, when Frog was supposedly fatally injured, there were not 3 or 4 identically dressed non-descript Windblown present; or, failing that, he could have all these other Windblown flee the scene before the chapter ends..

(5)  He could make it so Archie (real-grief man) and not Gerris (fake-grief man) was the one who was so VERY upset about Frog's supposed death.

Etc., etc., etc.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Gilbert Green]

Here's a challenge to opponents of the theory (whether you are a hater or merely unconvinced).

What do you think is going on between the Dornishmen and the Windblown?

Barristan sends the 2 Dornishmen on a mission to get the Windblown to switch sides.  This mission apparently succeeds.  Because, according to a hint we see in a sample Tyrion chapter from Winds, it seems the Windblown do switch sides.

One possibility is that the Dornishmen merely did exactly what Barristan told them to do.

But, then, what was Gerris' secret objection to this scheme?  And what was Archie's secret answer to this objection?  What was it that neither of them would say in front of Barristan (or the reader)?

Edited July 24, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Alester Florent]

17 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

But, then, what was Gerris' secret objection to this scheme?  And what was Archie's secret answer to this objection?  What was it that neither of them would say in front of Barristan (or the reader)?

Gerris objected because he blames Dany for Quentyn's death. Arch convinced him that it was (a) a matter of their own survival and (b) that if Dany's regime were destroyed then Quentyn died for nothing.

[Gilbert Green]

3 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Gerris objected because he blames Dany for Quentyn's death. Arch convinced him that it was (a) a matter of their own survival and (b) that if Dany's regime were destroyed then Quentyn died for nothing.

And why exactly can they not say all this in front of Barristan?

[Eden-Mackenzie]

On 7/22/2023 at 5:17 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

The thing that makes me wonder is the way Quentyn seems to already have disassociated from his body by the time he knows he's on fire:

Quote

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

'Oh' is such a great under-reaction. Probably a dramatic effect moment from George -  people can disassociate when shot and not realise it immediately. But there's the fan of supernatural horror inside me that also wants to believe that the scream was his first act on discovering he has effectively become a dragon. Existential screams beat burning screams for me, what can I say? 

The “oh” under-reaction is actually a pretty realistic surprise trauma response, your foreground brain doesn’t always move at the same speed as your background brain (yeah I know those aren’t the technical terms). Your body can start reacting before you are fully aware of what’s happening, and that’s how I read Quentyn’s reaction. Not that he was attempting to pull a Varamyr and continue his life in another body.

[Crona]

20 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Gerris objected because he blames Dany for Quentyn's death. Arch convinced him that it was (a) a matter of their own survival and (b) that if Dany's regime were destroyed then Quentyn died for nothing.

This is the section:

I want you to deliver a message to the Tattered Prince. Tell him that I sent you, that I speak with the queen's voice. Tell him that we'll pay his price if he delivers us our hostages, unharmed and whole."

Ser Archibald grimaced. "Rags and Tatters is more like to give the two of us to Pretty Meris. He won't do it."

"Why not? The task is simple enough." Compared to stealing dragons. "I once brought the queen's father out of Duskendale."

"That was Westeros," said Gerris Drinkwater.

"This is Meereen."

"Arch cannot even hold a sword with those hands."

"He ought not need to. You will have the sellswords with you, unless I mistake my man."

Gerris Drinkwater pushed back his mop of sun-streaked hair. "Might we have some time to discuss this amongst ourselves?"

"No," said Selmy.

"I'll do it," offered Ser Archibald, "just so long as there's no bloody boats involved. Drink will do it too." He grinned. "He don't know it yet, but he will."

 

Where in this section do you see Gerris blaming Dany for not wanting to go to Tatters?

 

Barristan tells them they can go home unharmed if they told Tatters that Dany will take Pentos (he wanted that in the first place and Dany refused). He would likely agree, however Drink and Arch are hesitant and come up with various excuses to not go. They had just tried to steal dragons, why would they be scared of Tatters when they are giving him exactly what he wants?  It could be they just don’t trust Tatters or something else. 

[Gilbert Green]

2 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

The “oh” under-reaction is actually a pretty realistic surprise trauma response, your foreground brain doesn’t always move at the same speed as your background brain (yeah I know those aren’t the technical terms). Your body can start reacting before you are fully aware of what’s happening, and that’s how I read Quentyn’s reaction. Not that he was attempting to pull a Varamyr and continue his life in another body.

It is rather hard to see when you don't have any eyes, because they have exploded or melted. 

So, at any rate, nothing of the sort has happened YET at the time the chapter ends.

The only evidence that it EVER happens is that burnt-beyond-recognition-man has no eyes.

But of course, that assumes that burnt-beyond-recognition man is Frog.  For which there is no good proof.  Only bad arguments.

[Gilbert Green]

3 minutes ago, Crona said:

It could be they just don’t trust Tatters or something else. 

Okay.  But.  Why would they not say this in front of Barristan?

[Crona]

8 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Okay.  But.  Why would they not say this in front of Barristan?

Well, I haven’t quite figured out the situation yet. They did express that they believe Tatters would hurt them but I am not sure why they would think that. If they had betrayed the Windblown then I can see why they are hesitant to meet the Windblown. However, why didn’t they tell Barristan? Well it’s a secret that needs to be hidden from him too..

[Gilbert Green]

6 minutes ago, Crona said:

Well, I haven’t quite figured out the situation yet. They did express that they believe Tatters would hurt them but I am not sure why they would think that.

Archie did not hesitate to say it in front of Barristan.

6 minutes ago, Crona said:

If they had betrayed the Windblown then I can see why they are hesitant to meet the Windblown.

Well, they did betray the Windblown.  They are deserters.

8 minutes ago, Crona said:

However, why didn’t they tell Barristan?

Barristan knows they are deserters from the Windblown.

[Daeron the Daring]

If I had to bet on wether Jon or Quentyn is alive after the injuries they suffered, I'd place my bet on neither, because both are 100% dead, and if GRRM was to tell me that one of the two is alive, I'd go with Quentyn. 

[Springwatch]

14 hours ago, sifth said:

Let me put it this way. Quentyn still being alive, makes as much sense as the fake Laenor death House of the Dragon gave us. In other words, it's too convoluted to make sense. Quentyn would literally have to be immune to dragon fire, the Tattered Prince or another person would have to be burn, yet not eaten close by, and just randomly on the spot Quentyn would have to come up with this plan to fake his death............because reasons. Literally just typing this out is hurting my head, because the logic behind it is random and stupid at best.

This. I can't think of three people less likely than these Dornish to come up with a successful fake-your-own-death scheme, and do it in an instant, in the midst of a disaster.

We know these people pretty well, from multiple chapters. They're not brilliant players or plotters. They just see opportunities, and fall into them. Now the two remaining are falling in with Barristan's plans - I don't think they'd abandon Quentyn if he was alive, and if they were more cunning, they'd remember that Barristan can't mistreat them without risking an alliance with the Dornish. (Maybe Gerris does have an inkling of that.)

17 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

But when we point these things out, the response is some variant of "NO NO NO NO NO.  We don't WANT that."

This is a book forum! Exactly the right place to discuss what is and is not weak plotting.

17 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Dany spend an entire book dithering.  And one of the things she dithered about was her idea that she needed dragon riders before she can go west.  It appears, per the theory, that Frog may have actually tamed a dragon, which, BTW, she explicitly invited him to do.   Hate it all you want

Did she? spend an entire book dithering? worry that she needs dragon riders before going west? or invite Quentyn to tame a dragon? I wish you gave us as many quotes as insults. (Describing pretty weighty issues as 'dithering' exposes you as a bit of a Dany hater. Fair?)

Edited July 24, 2023 by Springwatch
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