How controversial is the Quentyn being alive theory on here?

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't remember those. Citations please?

I don't have books at the moment so the quotes aren't as long as they should be but I think these are the ones:

Cersei I, ADwD

Quote

"Soon," said Septa Scolera, "but her brother—"

"Hush." Septa Unella turned to glare back over her shoulder at Scolera. "You chatter too much, you foolish old woman. It is not for us to speak of such things."

Epilogue, ADwD

Quote

Mace Tyrell remained unmoved. "Once Paxter Redwyne sweeps the ironmen from the seas, my sons will retake the Shields. The snows will do for Stannis, or Bolton will. As for Connington …"

I think the idea was it was unusual to say 'sons' plural, since Willas would be unlikely to be involved with his injury. Also, Mace was not really acting like Loras had just burned to death, Loras is supposedly his favourite son yet he doesn't seem sad or angry, and no one mentions Loras being injured in those chapters.

7 hours ago, sifth said:

I hate this theory, we literally see the guy get burnt in his own POV. 

Yeah, it's not even like the other ones where we 'technically' don't see X die, Quentyn literally gets roasted by a dragon. He even has time to realise it before he starts screaming. Of course people then say this is not him being burned to death but his soul going into the dragon or something but I don't see it. Krahznys mo Whatever got burned too, does that mean his soul is now in Drogon?

[Sandy Clegg]

29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Of course people then say this is not him being burned to death but his soul going into the dragon or something but I don't see it. Krahznys mo Whatever got burned too, does that mean his soul is now in Drogon?

I'm not sure either, but it's nice to see someone willing to bring it up finally  

'Second life' soul-transferring into dragons is far from a 100% theory but it's gained enough traction in recent years that it at least merits discussion. It's one of the more intriguing possibilities of the books, no? Yet Quentyn undergoes no ceremony, and uses no artefact (such as the dragonbinder horn). Which would make such a phenomenon a real stretch, as @Craving Peaches says, unless the big difference between Quentyn and Kraznhys is possessing a 'drop of dragon blood'.

This post suggests that the Martells have dragon blood in them (they omit Quentyn because it says 'alive characters'). But then, in the Dance of Dragons how may Targaryen's also died by dragonfire? Did their souls get sucked into dragons? It's way too inconsistent to make sense. But worth puzzling over.

The one thing we can say for sure is that George has been very naughty, teasing us with lines such as

Quote

' His proof was burned bones, but burned bones proved nothing. 

And having Davos' death be a fake-out in the same book. Plus Loras and the miller's boys. So we can say that George is at least nudging us down a path of speculation when it comes to Quentyn. For funsies perhaps?

[M.Alhazred]

He's dead. GRRM made it crystal clear. 

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

The one thing we can say for sure is that George has been very naughty, teasing us with lines such as

The issue is though, don't they have a bit more than just 'burned bones' for Quentyn? They have a burned corpse.

And given the cities of Slaver's Bay were part of Valyria, some of the Masters could have had a drop of dragon blood as well...

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't have books at the moment so the quotes aren't as long as they should be but I think these are the ones:

Cersei I, ADwD

Epilogue, ADwD

Nah, that's perfect. Thank you for pulling those up.

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think the idea was it was unusual to say 'sons' plural, since Willas would be unlikely to be involved with his injury. Also, Mace was not really acting like Loras had just burned to death, Loras is supposedly his favourite son yet he doesn't seem sad or angry, and no one mentions Loras being injured in those chapters.

Very suspect, I agree 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

That was until he choose to go with Quentyn being alive. I was just no........just no, I can't deal with this.

Heard there was also time-travel so nope from me.

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Heard there was also time-travel so nope from me.

I mean there is time travel in the main series as well, but Preston went with the Three Eyed Crow being future Bran and Bran being caught in a time loop, where his future self is trying to prevent the death of his past self. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean there is time travel in the main series as well,

If you are talking about Bran 'speaking' to people I don't think it is time-travel because Bran does not time travel there.

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If you are talking about Bran 'speaking' to people I don't think it is time-travel because Bran does not time travel there.

Bran travels back in time and sees a young version of Ned praying in front of the heart tree that Robb and Jon will come to love each other like true brothers.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, sifth said:

Bran travels back in time and sees a young version of Ned

That's a vision of the past though, not time travel.

[sifth]

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's a vision of the past though, not time travel.

Doesn’t Bran try to speak to Ned and Ned lifts his head as if he hears him. I think Bran’s mind/soul is what travels back in time. GRRM had written several books about characters minds traveling through time. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by sifth

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Doesn’t Bran try to speak to Ned and Ned lifts his head as if he hears him. I think Bran’s mind/soul is what travels back in time. GRRM had written several books about characters minds traveling through time. 

Only in the show. But yeah, the next step in Bran's training must involve interacting with the past, otherwise his chapters will just be straight-up scenes of him observing events. Bran needs to have some agency in the story - he's lost his legs, so the weirwood net may instead enable him to manipulate past events to some degree.

Yet to have evidence, but strongly implied in the shape of his character arc.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Only in the show. But yeah, the next step in Bran's training must involve interacting with the past, otherwise his chapters will just be straight-up scenes of him observing events. Bran needs to have some agency in the story - he's lost his legs, so the weirwood net may instead enable him to manipulate past events to some degree.

Yet to have evidence, but strongly implied in the shape of his character arc.

 

Actually, sifth is correct: 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III
Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.
His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning …
… and Bran, frightened, pulled away. His father and the black pool and the godswood faded and were gone and he was back in the cavern, the pale thick roots of his weirwood throne cradling his limbs as a mother does a child. A torch flared to life before him.
 

[Sandy Clegg]

22 minutes ago, LongRider said:

 

Actually, sifth is correct: 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III
Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.
His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning …
… and Bran, frightened, pulled away. His father and the black pool and the godswood faded and were gone and he was back in the cavern, the pale thick roots of his weirwood throne cradling his limbs as a mother does a child. A torch flared to life before him.
 

Ah, well even better. That's evidential enough then for me.

[Gilbert Green]

On 7/22/2023 at 6:17 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

I can't quite make up my mind on Quentyn being alive. His body seems to have been 100% burnt to a crispy Dorneburger, but we have these pesky 'second-life in the dragon' possibilities. We don't quite have enough information on how this works - is Quentyn the first human Rhaegal has killed with fire? That might go some way to answering if it's even possible.

That's not the usual form of the theory.  The usual form of the theory is that Quentyn was only mildy burnt at worst, and someone else got burnt to a crisp.  Specifically, another Windblown present, most likely Prince Tatters, operating incognito

On 7/22/2023 at 6:17 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

'Oh' is such a great under-reaction.

.Yes.  But the usual reading of this, under the theory, is that it indicates he is not really being badly burnt.  Rather like what has twice happened to Dany, first at the bonfire, then with Drogon in the Pit, when he flies off with a burning Dany.

[Gilbert Green]

On 7/22/2023 at 6:21 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Do his friends not also act like Quentyn is dead too?

Gerris does.  But Gerris is an actor, specializing in fake grief, but not experiencing real grief.  Archie (the one who actually cared about Quentyn) mainly just lets Gerris talk.  Though at times he intervenes to tell Gerris to give it a rest.

Both are clearly hiding something from Barristan (and hence, from the reader too).  Gerris wants permission to discusss something privately with Archie before accepting Barristan's mission to Tatters.  (They can't go on a mission to Tatters, because Tatters has gone missing and has just in fact died on Dany's bed).  But Archie then intervenes.  He has a plan to deal with the problem, that he will explain to Gerris later, in private.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Both are clearly hiding something from Barristan (and hence, from the reader too). 

Hmm, I always interpreted it as them hiding the fact they want to leave and go back to Dorne, since they blame Daenerys for ruining Quentyn's mission.

But it has been a while since I read that book...

[Gilbert Green]

On 7/22/2023 at 9:37 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I thought the 'theory' was that there was a decoy corpse?

The theory is that when the guards found Archie and Gerris arguing about whether to murder Tatters, who was already a bit crispy. Gerris was on the "yes" side of the argument, and was standing over Tatters with sword in hand.  Archie was on the "no" side of the argument and was shielding Tatters' neck.  The guards who found them reached a different interpretation, and mistook Tatters for Frog.  Archie and Gerris did not correct their error.  The truth being that Frog and Viserion had left together, and Archie and Gerris did not want them interfered with.

[Gilbert Green]

On 7/22/2023 at 10:40 AM, Craving Peaches said:

If Quentyn is confirmed alive in the next book then I think Ned and Renly's chances of survival have markedly improved...

Only if you can come up with a good theory.

"Frog is alive" is a good theory.  That's why people hate it.

If you can come up with a good Ned is alive or Renly is alive theory, then your theory can also be a hated theory.  But until then, people will just smile tolerantly at you. 

[Craving Peaches]

38 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Only if you can come up with a good theory.

Well, my theory is that one of Robert's bastards was serving as a body double for Renly in ACoK, which explains why his eye colour changes between AGoT and ACoK.

40 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

That's why people hate it.

I've not seen anyone who 'hates' it, just people who think it's implausible.