If Bloodraven is "alive" in the books...

[Tradecraft]

..  Why wouldn't it make sense for   Bittersteel to be around as well? 

And, when I say "alive", I'm being generous. I wouldn't call being chained to a tree forever "living"... Exactly. 

For me, it makes sense for Bittersteel to still be "alive". 

Again, I'm being generous. You don't get to live that long naturally. 

But if Bloodraven can extend his life unnaturally, might not Bittersteel?

Bittersteel dying and having his skull dipped in gold is not unlike Davos. His head was supposed to be cut off and dipped in pitch/tar. But clearly it's still in his head

 

 

My pitch

It's Illyrio. 

We know Melisandre, a follower of Rhllor is very old. Impossibly old. She's extended her life through fire magic. Judging by his yellow and firey clothes, Illyrio also is a worshiper of Rhllor.

It's not a stretch to say Bittersteel could have done the same

Indeed, if your mortal enemy had discovered "immortality"... Would you be willing to die? Wouldn't you want to find a similar method extend your life? To continue the battle? 

And Illyrio being Bittersteel would explain his Blackfyre connection to the gold company and his interest in Westerosi politics. 

 

 

A Dead sea cow 

Quote

He reminded Tyrion of a dead sea cow that had once washed up in the caverns under Casterly Rock.

Tyrion thinks Illyrio is "dead". Is he a fire wight? It would rhyme with his mortal enemy being giving to the Old Gods of Winter (ice vs fire). 

Furthermore, sea cows tend to live in Rivers... Is this a reference to Aegor Rivers? 

Sea cows are almost like, but not quite, hippopotami. Hippos were called "river horses" by the Romans. Horses are the symbol of Bittersteel's house, the Bracken's. 

 

There is another 

And if Bloodraven and Bittersteel are both alive... Why not their sister Shiera? 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Tradecraft

[Floki of the Ironborn]

It doesn't make sense for Bittersteel to be alive. He never learned what happened to Bloodraven, and even if he wanted to also become immortal, he had no means to do so. 

[Loose Bolt]

In a way Bittersteel is still around. After all his skull is one of those golden skulls that Golden Company uses as their banners.

[Tradecraft]

28 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

It doesn't make sense for Bittersteel to be alive. He never learned what happened to Bloodraven, and even if he wanted to also become immortal, he had no means to do so. 

Melisandre extended her life through fire magic. 

[Tradecraft]

5 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

In a way Bittersteel is still around. After all his skull is one of those golden skulls that Golden Company uses as their banners.

I'm taking about him walking around. Im Illyrios body. 

[SaffronLady]

Does anything indicate Aegor learned to skinchange, or learned any magic over the course of his life?

[Tradecraft]

9 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Does anything indicate Aegor learned to skinchange, or learned any magic over the course of his life?

We don't get too many details about Aegor. 

But I like the idea of their duel not being over. That they're currently engaged in a fight to the death over Westeros. 

 

 

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

But I like the idea of their duel not being over. That they're currently engaged in a fight to the death over Westeros.

With the Golden Company, Aegor could keep the fight going without being still alive.

There's a sort of symmetry, really. Bloodraven is "alive", but his legacy of loyalty to the Targs and magic is largely dead. Bittersteel is dead, but his goal to one day bring the Blackfyres home is still alive in the form of his legacy, the Golden Company.

And if you think about it, the albino Bloodraven and gold-themed Bittersteel keep the "silver means loyal, gold means usurper" motif mentioned in another thread, too.

[Tradecraft]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

With the Golden Company, Aegor could keep the fight going without being still alive.

There's a sort of symmetry, really. Bloodraven is "alive", but his legacy of loyalty to the Targs and magic is largely dead. Bittersteel is dead, but his goal to one day bring the Blackfyres home is still alive in the form of his legacy, the Golden Company.

And if you think about it, the albino Bloodraven and gold-themed Bittersteel keep the "silver means loyal, gold means usurper" motif mentioned in another thread, too.

I didn't know about gold vs. silver. Will have to check it out. 

 

Have to disagree with the Bloodraven vs. Bittersteel's legacy/ mercenary company. 

Bloodraven is active in ASOIAF. I don't think him starting a mercenary company is comparable to Bloodraven extending his life. 

Also, what guarantee does Bittersteel have that this mercenary company will continue his work?

 

Bottomline, I know that if I'm Bittersteel and Bloodraven is stil active... dying means giving up and letting Bloodraven win. Better to sell your soul to Rhllor and keep living. Wait for the right moment to strike and take the throne. 

[Tradecraft]

@Craving Peaches thoughts?

[Craving Peaches]

38 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

@Craving Peaches thoughts?

I'm not sure if he's 'alive' in the sense that Bloodraven is alive (though it looks like a miserable existence) but I was thinking about the 'skull dipped in gold' and it is kind of similar to what happened to Viserys...

If he did try to hook up with a tree like BR (though I don't think he did) then the Shade of the Evening Trees appear to be the Essos version of weirwoods. But if he was one of the spirits connected to that he probably burned with the House of the Undying.

The Golden Company is Bittersteel's 'child' - it is how he lived on. Bloodraven has prolonged his life through 'unnatural' means, and as a result he will never achieve the 'true' immortality of reproduction, biological or otherwise.

[Tradecraft]

Bloodraven's opponent is a mercenary company (the shadow of his old enemy)?

 

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Also, what guarantee does Bittersteel have that this mercenary company will continue his work?

That they themselves are the most likely destination of Westerosi warrior exiles, simple as that.

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Bottomline, I know that if I'm Bittersteel and Bloodraven is stil active... dying means giving up and letting Bloodraven win.

I'd appreciate a little timeline checking by the author for theory tangents like this.

[Tradecraft]

16 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

That they themselves are the most likely destination of Westerosi warrior exiles, simple as that.

I'd appreciate a little timeline checking by the author for theory tangents like this.

I don't think Bittersteel died. That's the whole point. 

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

I don't think Bittersteel died. That's the whole point. 

Is there any actual evidence for the idea that he didn't die?

Bittersteel didn't die of old age: he was fatally wounded in battle. By that stage, Bloodraven had already been sacked from King's Landing and sent to the Wall, where he was living, well within the scope of a normal lifespan. Bittersteel had no reason to believe that Bloodraven had extended his life using magic and his campaign of revenge against the Targaryens appeared to be continuing irrespective of Bloodraven's continued involvement with the regime.

And we have no indication that Bittersteel ever had any magical ability or interest in it.

[Tradecraft]

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Is there any actual evidence for the idea that he didn't die?

Bittersteel didn't die of old age: he was fatally wounded in battle. By that stage, Bloodraven had already been sacked from King's Landing and sent to the Wall, where he was living, well within the scope of a normal lifespan. Bittersteel had no reason to believe that Bloodraven had extended his life using magic and his campaign of revenge against the Targaryens appeared to be continuing irrespective of Bloodraven's continued involvement with the regime.

And we have no indication that Bittersteel ever had any magical ability or interest in it.

People fake their deaths or is faked for them all the time in ASOIAF. 

 

-Davos isn't dead. 

-Mance isn't dead. 

-Arya (presumed dead on more than one occassion) is alive. 

-Bran and Rickon aren't dead (like Theon claims). 

-The Hound might be alive

-Everyone or most people think Jon Snow will come back to life

 

 

The list goes on... 

 

We don't know that Bittersteel has an interest in magic... but he does have an interest in beating Bloodraven who we know extended his life via magic... Do we think Bittersteel wouldn't use magic to defeat Bloodraven or at the very least continue the fight?

 

Given the option of dying (and losing to Bloodraven) or, using the same magic as Melissandre to extend life... What do you think Bittersteel would pick?

 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

Wouldn't the magic of essos be incredibly weak during this time? no dragons or anything. north of the wall you still have children of the forrest, skin changers and giants. Asshai might have had magic, but bittersteel supposedly died in the disputed lands between lys, tyrosh and myr. where did Melisandre grow up? how old is she really? does magic prolong her life, or does she use a glammer like a faceless man?

Lys has witches so maybe something there. 

[SaffronLady]

14 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

We don't know that Bittersteel has an interest in magic... but he does have an interest in beating Bloodraven who we know extended his life

But did Bittersteel know Bloodraven used magic to extend his life? Most of Westeros just assumes he disappeared. Even if he did, would Bittersteel have the time to act on this information?

[Tradecraft]

7 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

But did Bittersteel know Bloodraven used magic to extend his life? Most of Westeros just assumes he disappeared. Even if he did, would Bittersteel have the time to act on this information?

Good question. My post is 100% pure speculation + what I kind of would want as a spectator in their duel. 

I'm low in the evidence department. I only have a limited amount of information. 

I'm throwing pasta  (a metaphor for Bittersteel) at the wall (Illyrio) to see if it sticks. 

 

And, you know, for something with such little evidence... I kind of like the idea of Bittersteel plotting revenge/takeover of westeros... Two immortal enemies fighting past their natural lifetimes... as avatars of the Bracken/Blackwood feud.  Possibly forever?

 

Bittersteel knew everything about Bloodraven (as much as possible), he'd be obsessed with his mortal enemy. They'd both be spying on each other. The whole realm knew Bloodraven was a "sorcerer". 

Bittersteel would want to know the source of Bloodraven's magic/power. 

 

From my persepective, I don't think it's a great leap for Bittersteel to extend his life like Melissandre. We even have evidence he's a Rhllor worshipper from his clothes and what he says. Plus we have loads of people "dying" but not really. They're presumed dead, or they faked it, or someone faked it for them. We even have an example of someone using Davos' skull (not his skull) to prove he's been executed. 

 

 

I read someone say that Bittersteel probably picked up on the fact that Bloodraven's enemies followed dangerous dreams to their early graves. And as a result, he was wary of prophetic dreams. I think this counts as Bittersteel knowing about Bloodraven's magical abilities. 

 

 

 

 

[Tradecraft]

8 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Wouldn't the magic of essos be incredibly weak during this time? no dragons or anything. north of the wall you still have children of the forrest, skin changers and giants. Asshai might have had magic, but bittersteel supposedly died in the disputed lands between lys, tyrosh and myr. where did Melisandre grow up? how old is she really? does magic prolong her life, or does she use a glammer like a faceless man?

Lys has witches so maybe something there. 

There was enough magic for Bloodraven to extend his life!

Rhollor is the opposite end of the magical world! You could say there needs to be balance! Bittersteel provides that balance!