Would You Rather? Jaehaerys I or Tywin?

[Maegor_the_Cool]

Would you rather be the daughter of King Jaehaerys I? Or a child of any gender of Tywin Lannister?

Edited July 27, 2023 by Jon Snowfyre

[astarkchoice]

Tywin 

Rich as hell id go travelling to avoid the worst of his 'parenting'

[Alester Florent]

I was half-expecting this to be a "shag, marry, avoid" kind of situation based on the title...

Jaehaerys.

He seems to have struggled with those of his children who didn't fit neatly into the expectations of a Westerosi lord (Saera, Gael, Daella, Vaegon) but the same can be said of the majority of Westerosi lords. And in Jaehaerys's case some of his kids do seem to have had genuine social or learning difficulties or the like, which makes things challenging (arguably even more so than a physical disability which at least is visible and can be compensated for).

Compare the way Randyll dealt with Sam, or Tywin with Tyrion, to the way Jaehaerys dealt with Vaegon or Gael. And Jaehaerys does seem to have genuinely cared, wanting to get a good outcome for his children, even if he occasionally dealt with them in a heavy-handed way.

Yes, Saera was a shitshow. But Jaehaerys also turned out a number of apparently well-adjusted children (Aemon, Maegelle, Baelon, Alyssa), which can't be said for Tywin - all three of his kids are a psychological minefield. He was a raving misogynist, but then, so was Tywin (and again, most Westerosi lords). If some random knight had seduced Sansa, do we really think Robb wouldn't have wanted his head? We saw how Brandon reacted to Lyanna disappearing with Rhaegar.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Craving Peaches]

Tywin because I don't want to be the spawn of brother-sister incest.

[James Steller]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tywin because I don't want to be the spawn of brother-sister incest.

Nah, just cousin incest

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, James Steller said:

Nah, just cousin incest

Not considered incest in Westeros or in some real world countries, whereas everyone thinks brother-sister is icky...

[CassDarry]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not considered incest in Westeros or in some real world countries, whereas everyone thinks brother-sister is icky...

I met some one the other day who's married to her mothers sisters son....having a healthy children with him.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, CassDarry said:

I met some one the other day who's married to her mothers sisters son....having a healthy children with him.

Risk of birth defects should be lower in cousin marriages than in sibling marriages...

[The Bard of Banefort]

Jaehaerys. Just be a) moderately well-behaved or b) good at hiding it, and you should be fine. Jaehaerys may have been traditionalist in the sense that he wanted his daughters to marry and didn’t think the realm would accept a queen, but there’s nothing to suggest that he showed the contempt for his daughters that Tywin did for all of his children.

[csuszka1948]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Jaehaerys. Just be a) moderately well-behaved or b) good at hiding it, and you should be fine. Jaehaerys may have been traditionalist in the sense that he wanted his daughters to marry and didn’t think the realm would accept a queen, but there’s nothing to suggest that he showed the contempt for his daughters that Tywin did for all of his children.

 

 To be honest, I feel fandom somewhat overstates how bad person Jahaerys was. 

Yes, Alysanne would have made a better ruler than him and he was sexist, but he was still a good King and and an (at least) average father by Westerosi standards.

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

 To be honest, I feel fandom somewhat overstates how bad person Jahaerys was. 

Yes, Alysanne would have made a better ruler than him and he was sexist, but he was still a good King and and an (at least) average father by Westerosi standards.

I think it's a response in part to the presentation of Jaehaerys in-character in TWoIaF in particular but also Fire and Blood, where he has a kind of Mary-Sue vibe (not only infinitely wise, but also a great swordsman, etc.) Which to be honest is kind of annoying. He doesn't even have the good grace to be quickly killed off, like Baelor Breakspear.

So people zero in on his failures and weaknesses in response, and then these get memetically magnified until we find ourselves with an apparently widespread belief that he's a raving misogynist even by the standards of his era and the worst parent of all time.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Alester Florent

[The Duck and the Field]

Jaehaerys doesn't seem all that bad. Implication in Saera's story is that she was massively spoiled up until the incident, so as long as you behaved well by Westerosi standards, you'd be pretty well off.

Tywin would be different beast entirely. Massive pressure to live up to expectations and occasionally absurdly harsh discipline, but most of the time would be pretty absent from your life. After all, Jaime and Cersei were able to get away with a twenty-year long incestuous affair right under his nose, so there might be a strange kind of freedom under him.

[SaffronLady]

17 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

he has a kind of Mary-Sue vibe (not only infinitely wise, but also a great swordsman, etc.)

I thought that was more of him not getting killed by Maegor despite being under the Cruel's thumb? There are some IRL kings (and emperors, etc.) who are wise and passable at combat. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 7/28/2023 at 10:06 PM, csuszka1948 said:

 To be honest, I feel fandom somewhat overstates how bad person Jahaerys was. 

Yes, Alysanne would have made a better ruler than him and he was sexist, but he was still a good King and and an (at least) average father by Westerosi standards.

I think you could say that Jaehaerys was sexist but not a misogynist. He may have preferred men in positions of power, but there’s nothing to suggest that he detested women or wanted to harm them. Tywin clearly did, as his treatment of Tysha and his father’s mistress show.

[James Arryn]

Jaehaerys. There has definitely been a (arguably needed) retcon of his character, and imo done very well…he went from a ‘wise old king’ archetype to something more sinister and with much greater personal failings, but there is still a genuine desire to do justice there that we don’t see in Tywin. Jaehaerys hurts his children unintentionally, Tywin deliberately. Not saying one hurts less, but it makes the choice imo clearer. I will say this, broadly speaking, not daughters etc. but just subjects, I’d imagine that the day to day lives of the small folk under either ruler would, provided you’re not central to some crisis, be pretty much the same under either. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

In a morbidly funny way, Jaehaerys’ treatment of his daughters is him messing up with one, trying to the opposite with the next daughter, then messing up anyway. Daella was forced to marry young and died, so he took a hands-off approach with Saera and let her shop around the boys at court. Only Saera disgraced the family, so he and Alysanne betrothed Viserra young to a faraway lord. Viserra died in an accident tangentially related to her betrothal, so he just gave up with Gael. Then Gael got pregnant out of wedlock, had a stillborn baby, and killed herself. 
 

Personally, I think Alyssa should have died in a “high spirited” horse race and Viserra should have died in a shipwreck on the way to White Harbor. Alyssa dying in childbirth just felt like GRRM needed to get rid of her and picked the easiest way. And Viserra dying in a shipwreck would have emphasized her parents’ guilt in forcing her into marriage.