The Starks are Andals (or "what's in a name?")

[Tradecraft]

The first wave of English to move to Ireland, called Old English, soon lost touch with England and to survive and thrive they adopted Irish names, laws and, customs. They became more Irish than even the local Irish. 

 

They intermarried with the locals and traded with them. 

The new English settlers called them "Irish Dogs". 

 

This reminds me of the Starks. 

It was the Starks who conquered the North. 

But it was not outright conquest. Some nothern houses survived and the Starks intermarried with them. A sign that their conquest was limited. 

We know GRRM used Irish history (among others) to write ASOIAF. And I think he took inspiration for the Starks here. 

The Starks took a first man name. They became "more northern" than the other northerners by strictly observing the laws and customs of the North. 

They're even "dogs" (direwolves). 

 

 

 

[Alester Florent]

I mean, the histories are very clear that the North resisted Andal conquest, and that Theon Stark was the most aggressive and successful of the enemies of the Andals, which would seem to blow this theory out of the water.

Of course, the histories might be wrong, or lying. But we have no real indication that they are.

[Corvo the Crow]

Dude, Starks have been there for “8000 years” or more, A Stark, Theon the Hungry Wolf, put the fear of Old Gods in the hearts of all those Andalosi so much, they never tried to invade da Norf again.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

The first wave of English to move to Ireland, called Old English, soon lost touch with England and to survive and thrive they adopted Irish names, laws and, customs. They became more Irish than even the local Irish. 

 

They intermarried with the locals and traded with them. 

The new English settlers called them "Irish Dogs". 

 

This reminds me of the Starks. 

It was the Starks who conquered the North. 

But it was not outright conquest. Some nothern houses survived and the Starks intermarried with them. A sign that their conquest was limited. 

We know GRRM used Irish history (among others) to write ASOIAF. And I think he took inspiration for the Starks here. 

The Starks took a first man name. They became "more northern" than the other northerners by strictly observing the laws and customs of the North. 

They're even "dogs" (direwolves). 

 

 

 

This all depends on who Garth the Green was, as Brandon of the Bloody blade was the progenitor of House Stark. There are clearly a Tourney held for Maris the Maid, daughter of Garth taken by Uthor of the Hightower. There are tales of Dragon slayers and dragons in the early Gardener times too. All supposedly Andal things, as the North takes no part in such activities. 

Westeros is clearly England. Valyria is Rome. As not only was their an Emperor Valerian who fought the Goths in Syria (Asia Minor), but there is a Kjarr in Norse myth (Caesar) who is King of Valland and the Valir people (Roman-Gaul). 

Belerion is named for the Island of Ictis, once named Belerion in Greek records. A place the Phoenicians and Greeks went for Tin.

The Ghiscari are the Greeks, while Yi-ti is Phoenicia. Tyrian is a clue to this as Tyrian Purple was made from Sea Mollusk by the Phoenicians and people of Carthage (Punic=Phoenician) for the royal purple dye later used by the conquering Romans. 

How much GRRM is pulling from history for his own history, im not sure. The Goths, Vandals, and Burgundians (Volsung clan/Nibelungs) conquered the Western Roman Empire after Rome fell, all the way to Spain, England, Italy, and Greece. The Germanic tribes eventually saw themselves as the continuation of Rome somewhat by way of the Holy Roman Empire. 

The Targayens could well be Andals who merely see themselves as the continuation of Valyria, yet follow the faith of the Seven (There is a sept built into Dragonstone, presumably before they ever invaded and had to make nice with the locals they conquered). 

The Vandals claimed links to Greece and Trojan War. So the Andals could have ties in Old Ghis for all we know. The current Ghiscari are the old slaves and presumably look nothing like the Old Ghiscari. 

I think the Starks are Andals though myself, possibly brought in to mitigate something in the North, and instead stayed (Much like the Anglo-Saxons of England.)

We know in the South that the Manderly's used to be super important, as the River is named for them, not the Gardeners or Garth the Green. Suggesting that Garth's family were not the first men, but invaders. House Lannister is tied to Garth the Green too.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

37 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This all depends on who Garth the Green was, as Brandon of the Bloody blade was the progenitor of House Stark. There are clearly a Tourney held for Maris the Maid, daughter of Garth taken by Uthor of the Hightower. There are tales of Dragon slayers and dragons in the early Gardener times too. All supposedly Andal things, as the North takes no part in such activities. 

Westeros is clearly England. Valyria is Rome. As not only was their an Emperor Valerian who fought the Goths in Syria (Asia Minor), but there is a Kjarr in Norse myth (Caesar) who is King of Valland and the Valir people (Roman-Gaul). 

Belerion is named for the Island of Ictis, once named Belerion in Greek records. A place the Phoenicians and Greeks went for Tin.

The Ghiscari are the Greeks, while Yi-ti is Phoenicia. Tyrian is a clue to this as Tyrian Purple was made from Sea Mollusk by the Phoenicians and people of Carthage (Punic=Phoenician) for the royal purple dye later used by the conquering Romans. 

How much GRRM is pulling from history for his own history, im not sure. The Goths, Vandals, and Burgundians (Volsung clan/Nibelungs) conquered the Western Roman Empire after Rome fell, all the way to Spain, England, Italy, and Greece. The Germanic tribes eventually saw themselves as the continuation of Rome somewhat by way of the Holy Roman Empire. 

The Targayens could well be Andals who merely see themselves as the continuation of Valyria, yet follow the faith of the Seven (There is a sept built into Dragonstone, presumably before they ever invaded and had to make nice with the locals they conquered). 

The Vandals claimed links to Greece and Trojan War. So the Andals could have ties in Old Ghis for all we know. The current Ghiscari are the old slaves and presumably look nothing like the Old Ghiscari. 

I think the Starks are Andals though myself, possibly brought in to mitigate something in the North, and instead stayed (Much like the Anglo-Saxons of England.)

We know in the South that the Manderly's used to be super important, as the River is named for them, not the Gardeners or Garth the Green. Suggesting that Garth's family were not the first men, but invaders. House Lannister is tied to Garth the Green too.

 

Gardeners literally prepared against and waited for the Andals to invade the Reach for generations, they were established in the Reach for thousands of years at this point.

[AlaskanSandman]

15 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Gardeners literally prepared against and waited for the Andals to invade the Reach for generations, they were established in the Reach for thousands of years at this point.

There is more than enough evidence to suggest the histories are not nearly as long as you're making them out to be. Its been pretty well established on this board a few times that the Andals only invaded a couple thousand years ago, and that there were waves. Garth and his family, including the Lannister who took Casterly Rock from the "First Men". The Lannisters are constantly referred to as Andal and descendants of Early Andals. This isn't speculation when the books clearly say as much. 

This also happened in England. The Saxon's, Angles, and Jutes are closely related to the later Vikings (Jutes come from Denmark where the later Danes would come from and invade England establishing the Danelaw). Saxons say "Woden", while Norse say "Odin". They were closely related and knew it. It wasn't how "Vikings" show displays it, at all. The days of the week are literally named after the same gods as the Norse men, this would not have been lost on them. 

I Imagine Garth was similarly related to the later Andals. There was even a Tourney held for Maris the Maid, something only Andals did, not first men. Tales of Knights, dragon slayers, and other things to suggest early Andals. Let alone House Lannister being founded by an Early Andal Adventurer. 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by AlaskanSandman

[Alester Florent]

Garth Greenhand was one of the First Men; the Gardeners were a First Men house.

Lann the Clever (the first Lannister) was also a First Man. The Lannisters are an "Andal house" in that they descend In the male line from an Andal, due to a marriage between a Lannister princess and an Andal warlord, but they were originally a First Men house.

I absolutely agree that the history timeline is shorter than generally believed in-world, and that the Andal invasion was only about 2,000 years BP rather than 6,000 years BP as the conventional histories seem to claim. But I think this makes it more likely that First Men houses are still around in number rather than less likely, no?

[SaffronLady]

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yi-ti is Phoenicia. Tyrian is a clue to this as Tyrian Purple was made from Sea Mollusk by the Phoenicians and people of Carthage (Punic=Phoenician) for the royal purple dye later used by the conquering Romans. 

Isn't Yi Ti just China-lite though? Tyrosh is quite some ways off from Yi Ti.

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I think the Starks are Andals though myself, possibly brought in to mitigate something in the North, and instead stayed (Much like the Anglo-Saxons of England.)

This would involve proving some version of the "waves of Andal invasion" theory correct, since at least there was the entire Theon the Hungry Wolf and his Andal overkill business to account for.

[Craving Peaches]

27 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Isn't Yi Ti just China-lite though? Tyrosh is quite some ways off from Yi Ti.

I don't get Phoenicia vibes from Yi-Ti either... If anything is Phoenican wouldn't it be Ghis?

[Tradecraft]

15 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I mean, the histories are very clear that the North resisted Andal conquest, and that Theon Stark was the most aggressive and successful of the enemies of the Andals, which would seem to blow this theory out of the water.

Of course, the histories might be wrong, or lying. But we have no real indication that they are.

The winners rewrite history all the time. I our world and in ASOIAF 

[SaffronLady]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't get Phoenicia vibes from Yi-Ti either... If anything is Phoenican wouldn't it be Ghis?

I'd say "pre-Rome Med city-states" are sort of lumped together in the form of Ghis.

[Alester Florent]

7 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

The winners rewrite history all the time. I our world and in ASOIAF 

Right, but where's our evidence that they have in the case of the Starks? We can't just say "history is written by the victors" and then throw everything in the records of the window without some sort of indication that the records are wrong.

I also don't think that it's wise to assume that the lands and peoples of ASoIaF correspond directly to those in the real world and make assumptions about their history accordingly. In fantasy worlds, inspiration from the real world is rarely 1:1, and in at least one such case (the Dothraki) we know that they are supposedly inspired by a mishmash of different nomadic cultures from various places and time periods (while on closer analysis actually not being very much like any of them at all).

Admittedly, the further out from the narrative action we get and the more basic the associated information on a place, the more one-note they may become (Yi Ti seems very Chinese; Nefer seems pretty much straight fantasy), but anywhere that's actually important to the story tends to be a blend of inspirations with at the very least a fair dollop of fantasy (whether that fantasy be original or not).

The Ghiscari, for instance, are quite reminiscent of Mesopotamia, but also pre-Roman Mediterranean states in general, with a bit of Rome to boot, and given the generous sprinklings of orientalist tropes across the whole society there's probably some Turkish/Arabic stuff in there too. I don't see a lot of Greek in there if I'm honest but I can believe it's there.

Westeros clearly has a British inspiration but the specifics are all wonky. Other than a general north-south divide it's hard to map any of it onto Britain with any specificity. The Westerlands are full of mountains and gold (and possibly sheep) but the political influence of the Westerlander nobility, the Lannisters in particular, is well beyond that ever wielded by Welsh kings or lords in England. The Reach seems in some ways more reminiscent of France than anywhere in England, while Dorne mashes up all kinds of bits and pieces. I can say with confidence though that it is pretty common in Scotland to make costumes out of the bones of your enemies, and the people there live in fear of supernatural ice monsters, so there's at least one thing that maps accurately.

Similarly, while the invasion of the Andals is clearly inspired by the invasion of the Anglo-Saxons (et al) into England in the fifth century, we can't assume that the two events were exactly the same. In fact it's pretty clear that they weren't just from the information in TWoIaF. Just as it's obvious that the Targaryen conquest of Westeros was not actually all that similar to the Norman Conquest of England, despite (again) probably carrying some inspiration from it.

[AlaskanSandman]

18 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Isn't Yi Ti just China-lite though? Tyrosh is quite some ways off from Yi Ti.

This would involve proving some version of the "waves of Andal invasion" theory correct, since at least there was the entire Theon the Hungry Wolf and his Andal overkill business to account for.

Phoenicia is Asia Minor. Yi-Ti doesn't look near far enough. If Valyria is Rome, then across the waters is Greece, then Phoenicia. Which makes sense as Yi-Ti likely influenced Valyria. Phoenicia not only provided the Purple die used by the Romans, but they gave their alphabet to the Greeks, Romans, Etruscans, and Germans. Further more, their gods are related as Baal Hadad is Zeus, who is Jupiter, and Tyr. It makes no sense for Yi-Ti to be China, at least in my mind.

The Andals obviously went in waves instead of one big invasion as Lann the Clever was an Early Andal Adventurer. Plus the Andals were landing in different areas, not just the fingers. Suggesting multiple uncoordinated waves. Whether Starks are Andal or not, I feel the issue of Andals coming in waves is pretty well established.

[AlaskanSandman]

18 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't get Phoenicia vibes from Yi-Ti either... If anything is Phoenican wouldn't it be Ghis?

No, as across the waters from Rome is Greece, not Phoenicia. The maps are clearly Europe with Britain laid west instead of North. So it would go, Rome, Greece, the Phoenicia which is in Asia Minor. Only way Ghis is Phoenician, is if they are Carthage, which Punic means Phoenician. If that was the case though, id expect them to be located in Sothoryos though, not Essos.

[AlaskanSandman]

23 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Garth Greenhand was one of the First Men; the Gardeners were a First Men house.

Lann the Clever (the first Lannister) was also a First Man. The Lannisters are an "Andal house" in that they descend In the male line from an Andal, due to a marriage between a Lannister princess and an Andal warlord, but they were originally a First Men house.

I absolutely agree that the history timeline is shorter than generally believed in-world, and that the Andal invasion was only about 2,000 years BP rather than 6,000 years BP as the conventional histories seem to claim. But I think this makes it more likely that First Men houses are still around in number rather than less likely, no?

It clearly says in TWOIAF that Lann was a possible Andal Adventurer. Garth isn't likely the First men as people in Dorne don't worship him. If he had led the first men, they would likely have worshiped him. Further, its kinda clear from the text that the real first men were House Casterly, and House Manderly. House Hightower is debate-able as First Men or Pre-First Men. If House Gardener was so powerful from the get go, and were there before House Manderly, then the Mander would be named for them, not Garth. Further, House Manderly worships Mermen, not the Greenman. So clearly different waves of people.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No, as across the waters from Rome is Greece, not Phoenicia.

I was thinking not just geographical parallels though, but the Punic Wars mirrored by the five Valyrian-Ghiscari wars, the way the Valyrians razed Ghis, etc. 

I don't see the Ghiscari as good parallels for Greek City states, because the Ghiscari were never City States before the Valyrians came but a (native) empire, unlike Greece which was city-states when the Romans came. Greek City-States also had more cultural variation than we see between Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen. Greek cities were later part of the Eastern Roman Empire as well, this has no parallel in the story (the Ghiscari do not claim to be inheritors of the Valyrian legacy but rather their own Empire from before Valyria). If you are referring to just Sparta however, then I think that works slightly better, but still not great as Sparta was a joke by the time the Romans got there whereas Valyria needed five wars to put Ghis down. Also, the only Greek city-state I am aware of that the Romans really destroyed like Ghis during their conquest of Greece was Corinth (which they rebuilt later), whereas the Valyrians seem to have destroyed all but Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen. Ghis also has none of the cultural achievements that the Greeks did (aside from maybe Sparta but potential evidence of this was destroyed by this man: ).

To me, Ghiscari seem like a combination of Carthage (enemy of Rome/Valyria that got wrecked, government style) and Egypt (Pyramids, length of time the Empire existed).

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yi-Ti doesn't look near far enough.

Dude, this is like, fantasy. Geographical distance does not influence who gets inspired by what if the author does not want to.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Phoenicia not only provided the Purple die used by the Romans, but they gave their alphabet to the Greeks, Romans, Etruscans, and Germans.

And the dye thing is a Tyrosh feature. No idea about the alphabet thing, that's not something GRRM developed.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It makes no sense for Yi-Ti to be China, at least in my mind.

Well, firstly, on the world map Yi Ti is much bigger than a city state, and secondly, we have this little line from The World of Ice and Fire:

Quote

Today Yin is once more the capital of Yi Ti. 

Emphasis: once more. So this one line gives us direct confirmation of how big the Golden Empire is: big enough to have had different capitals, which means it is much bigger and much more unifed than the "Phoenician Empire", which was more or less centered around the city of Tyre (which is where we get Tyrosh) when it wasn't busy not existing. Even if we count Carthage, there was still no capital city moving around going on.

Even a most cursory glance at the wiki article on Yi Ti shows at least it wasn't inspired by a city state. In my mind, it makes even less sense to assume Yi Ti was inspired by Tyre.

If you are interested, I could develop my point with help of the wiki and Search of Ice and Fire, that instead of ye generic great land empire, Yi Ti is more closely inspired specifically by China.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Whether Starks are Andal or not, I feel the issue of Andals coming in waves is pretty well established.

I'm just going to ingest theories on this because I don't feel like analysing garbled and politically charged "historical narratives" so close to a good chunk of the story proper.

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It clearly says in TWOIAF that Lann was a possible Andal Adventurer. Garth isn't likely the First men as people in Dorne don't worship him. If he had led the first men, they would likely have worshiped him.

The people of Dorne mostly worship the Seven like most of the rest of the Westerosi. Nobody worships Garth, and why would they? In the legends, he's a man. The First Men (eventually) came to follow the Old Gods.

Quote

Further, its kinda clear from the text that the real first men were House Casterly, and House Manderly. House Hightower is debate-able as First Men or Pre-First Men.

The First Men may have come in waves (all the human immigrants before the end of the Dawn Age were First Men), although the text is pretty clear that Garth is considered either one of the first wave or the very first of them. I'm not getting anything from the text that makes it clear that the Casterlys or Manderlys were there first. There is something strange about the Hightower, yes, but not necessarily the house that occupies it.

Quote

If House Gardener was so powerful from the get go, and were there before House Manderly, then the Mander would be named for them, not Garth.

Not necessarily. You can't name everything after the same guy/people; it gets terribly confusing. And it could be the other way round: possibly the Mander was named first (from an old word meaning "river" or the like) and the Manderlys took their name from that, then it got muddled up in the retelling.

Quote

Phoenicia which is in Asia Minor

Phoenicia is (was) in the Levant, not Asia Minor.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Phoenicia is (was) in the Levant, not Asia Minor.

Its part of Asia Minor or Western Asia. 

Quote

 

Asia Minor

Catholic Answers

https://www.catholic.com › encyclopedia › asia-minor

Asia Minor is also known as “the Levant”, a Western (Italian and French) equivalent for Anatolia.

 

Quote

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Asia_minor_1140-es.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_provinces_of_Asia_Minor.jpg

The Middle East is the common term for a region consisting of countries in southwest Asia and, usually, at least part of North Africa.

 

What is the Middle East? - TeachMideast

TeachMideast

https://teachmideast.org › articles › what-is-the-middle-east

Ill respond to the rest when I have a lil more time.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Dude, this is like, fantasy. Geographical distance does not influence who gets inspired by what if the author does not want to.

But you're the authority on what inspired him, dude? lol You're welcome to think what you want. If you want it to be China, then sure. Its China. Its missing the shore and Ocean but ok They're called "Bright Eyed". Something people in China are not. Where as people in modern day Phoenicia/ Lebanon actually do have "Bright Eyes" as some have blue eyes 

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-people-who-live-in-Syria-and-Lebanon-have-blue-eyes-and-are-as-white-as-Europeans-in-some-cases-even-more-so-Does-this-have-any-connection-with-the-ancient-crusaders

 

https://www.quora.com/How-common-are-blue-green-and-hazel-eyes-in-the-Middle-East

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9be74f4e9472856d0c054fe84a89d0db-lq