Can someone explain what "The sphinx is the riddle not the riddler" means?

[Tradecraft]

4 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

This needs its own thread now.

Well I've looked into that outline quite a bit, and the big difference is that he never intended it to be made public, right? He was actually quite annoyed that it got out. He's probably changed tack several times since the first book - not in the grand scheme of things, but in his gardening style. So that outline is pretty much worthless.

I don't see the point of him lying about as generic an influence as the Iliad I guess. I mean, Lyanna and Rhaegar are Paris and Helen of Troy parallels regardless of his intentionality. Or perhaps all four characters are instances of the same archetype. It's just splitting hairs really.

What I find more interesting is when there are instances, in both the books and the show, where I think he goes out of his way to provide clues for us, as opposed to misdirecting. Given that tendency, it would seem odd for him to feel the need to outright lie about other things. 

Is it lying? 

He's given us the books?

Does he have to spoonfeed us the answers as well?

[Tradecraft]

6 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

The old city of Nanchang in China also has seven gates.

More likely, 7 symbolism in Westeros is primarily a nod at Christianity's 7 day weeks, instead of any ancient city.

cool. cool. Just ignore everything I said. 

[Sandy Clegg]

6 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Does he have to spoonfeed us the answers as well?

I guess it depends on the size and shape of the spoon?

He doles hints out in tiny measures, and through unexpected mediums. Dunk & Egg contain a raft of supporting ideas for the imagery in ASOIAF  - but not everyone reads them or picks up on the imagery even if they do. His entries in the world book are a goldmine - both the maps (all of which he drew) and the text. Fire & Blood reiterates a lot of the imagery and themes necessary to interpret key ideas, not just historical tidbits.

Even with his scripted episodes for the show (blasphemy on here, sorry, but it's an important meta point) ...  it's possible that he is sometimes offering clues which can relate to the books, although we can't 100% confirm these as true 'So Spake Martins'. Still, it's enticing to ponder. At the end of one GRRM-penned scene in S4  - which is not found in the books - it's almost as though George is talking directly to the audience through Tywin at the end. Are we being counselled at that very moment, not just Joffrey? Apples and dragon skulls - that's an intriguing connection (if you spot the authorial nudge). More significantly, the Hand ruling from 'atop the tower', while the King languishes uselessly below. That's a handy metaphor for the rival consciousnesses in a skinchanger and 'skinchangee' relationship. 

Spoons abound.

[Castellan]

Going back to Alleras as sphinx, i had forgotten that Leo had named her that because she is a mixture of this and that - Dornish and Summer Islander, he says. i wonder if the cunning Leo has also figured out she's female, which is a major part of the Sphinx mixture in the legends from Greece, anyway. Leo seems pretty well ahead of his fellows on all counts, even if he's unpleasant. He breaks the news about dragons and mocks the rationale the Citadel orthodoxy has constructed re the lesson of the glass candles.

I also looked up Brigantine and can see why she wears it, it would do a good job as a corset/chest flattener.

[Sandy Clegg]

4 hours ago, Castellan said:

also looked up Brigantine and can see why she wears it, it would do a good job as a corset/chest flattener.

brigandine or brigantine /brigˈən-dēn/ noun

• A mail-coat of steel rings or plates sewn onto linen or leather

As a mail coat, it's also a metaphorical 'male coat'.

I've been checking out Sphinxes etymology a bit more, and the word's origin as 'strangler' is a very enticing rabbit hole to go down. Yes, it's a Greek folk etymology from mistranslating the Egyptian word. But that was over 3,000 years ago. So, as much of our mythology around the Sphinx comes from Greek origins (the riddle, strangling people, etc) I feel like it's a valid clue.

Interestingly, some other translations for the. original Greek word -  Σφίγξ  - are not limited to 'strangle' but also 'squeeze' and 'bind'. And of course from these we also get the modern word 'sphincter' (no giggling in the back, please!). So anything that in the text is alluded to as a squeezer, binder, choker, strangler .... these are all potentially valid 'Sphinx' word clues. I have a longer post coming which outlines examples from the books on this topic. Maybe a new thread for that, though.

[Springwatch]

On 8/11/2023 at 4:25 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

This needs its own thread now.

Well...... the thread is about a riddle. I've got that fuzzy feeling the readers have been set a riddle we're not really seeing yet.

Right at the start we have much play about a lens being an object that helps us see, and a secret language, and the dead direwolf being a sign to be learned from. These feel like puzzle elements, and even now they fit nowhere. Certainly not necessary to the plot. Every time I see the quote, Reader you would do well to keep your nose in your books, I feel a poke in my ribs across the fourth wall.

On 8/11/2023 at 4:25 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Well I've looked into that outline quite a bit, and the big difference is that he never intended it to be made public, right? He was actually quite annoyed that it got out. He's probably changed tack several times since the first book - not in the grand scheme of things, but in his gardening style. So that outline is pretty much worthless.

His publisher got played though. And it did end happily for all concerned.

On 8/11/2023 at 4:25 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

I don't see the point of him lying about as generic an influence as the Iliad I guess. I mean, Lyanna and Rhaegar are Paris and Helen of Troy parallels regardless of his intentionality. Or perhaps all four characters are instances of the same archetype. It's just splitting hairs really.

Me neither.

On 8/11/2023 at 4:25 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

What I find more interesting is when there are instances, in both the books and the show, where I think he goes out of his way to provide clues for us, as opposed to misdirecting. Given that tendency, it would seem odd for him to feel the need to outright lie about other things. 

I've not watched much of the show, but I do believe there are clues there: people notice things given unexpected emphasis - a necklace of dragonflies, a mysterious white horse, etc - those feel like they had meaning for the author (if not for anyone else).

He might have completely different rules of engagement for interview. All's fair in love and war, and an interview with hungry fans is both.

[Sandy Clegg]

On 8/12/2023 at 10:29 PM, Springwatch said:

Well...... the thread is about a riddle. I've got that fuzzy feeling the readers have been set a riddle we're not really seeing yet.

Right at the start we have much play about a lens being an object that helps us see, and a secret language, and the dead direwolf being a sign to be learned from. These feel like puzzle elements, and even now they fit nowhere. Certainly not necessary to the plot. Every time I see the quote, Reader you would do well to keep your nose in your books, I feel a poke in my ribs across the fourth wall.

Putting a character called literally 'The Reader' has to be a fourth-wall rib-poke too, for sure. ASOIAF may indeed double up as a puzzle book in some of the arcane ways in which GRRM buries his mysteries. Signs and portents are not just for the characters to ponder over, clearly. I don't think George has any qualms about experimenting with fourth-wall breaks, I just wish he would provide a few more hints about whether or not he's done so, otherwise we end up chasing shadows and that way madness lies  

[Bobity.]

Throughout ASOIAF depictions of sphinxes had always been as 'Valyrian' with dragon bodies and human heads, except for one reference.

AFFC - Samwell V - 'The gates of the Citadel were flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes with the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpents. One had a man's face, one a woman's.'

While not a riddle per say, the discrepancy of the anatomy of a sphinx is puzzling, especially if the Citadel predates Valyria with references during the Age of Heroes.

[chrisdaw]

I'm quite sure I know where it's leading but the wording is rather grey and I'm probably missing something in how it's going to be presented.

An important question (riddle) will eventually emerge, the question being what does one need to make a rideable dragon to save the world? The answer is a dragon second lifed by a human (probably one of particular blood - Valyrian/Targaryen) thus made rideable, these are what Valyrian sphinxes represent and so they're not the question but the answer.

To make some assumptions I would guess Aemon got it from a text and the text will resurface in the series and put the exact way the sentence is worded into a context that makes more sense.

Alleras/Sarella might be a GRRM hint at something related to this thematically, but she's obviously not the literal answer, Aemon is talking about waking dragons and saving the world in the war for the dawn, a girl pretending to be a boy in Oldtown doesn't relate literally.

Edited December 19, 2023 by chrisdaw

[Aebram]

On 12/18/2023 at 6:42 PM, chrisdaw said:

Aemon is talking about waking dragons and saving the world in the war for the dawn, a girl pretending to be a boy in Oldtown doesn't relate literally.

Well, yes, but on the other hand ...

I think "it is known" that Aemon's remark about "the riddle, not the riddler" is some sort of prophecy or magical message, not just the raving of an old man in poor health. Sphinxes are mentioned several times in the five books, but not in a way that has, or even hints at, any importance to the story ... except perhaps for one.

Quote

“Is this a riddle?” Roone wanted to know. “Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales.” “No riddle.” Alleras sipped his wine ... It had been Lazy Leo who dubbed Alleras “the Sphinx.” A sphinx is a bit of this, a bit of that: a human face, the body of a lion, the wings of a hawk. Alleras was the same: his father was a Dornishman, his mother a black-skinned Summer Islander. His own skin was dark as teak. And like the green marble sphinxes that flanked the Citadel’s main gate, Alleras had eyes of onyx.  (Feast Prologue)

This prologue discusses the sphinx, more, I think, than all the other chapters of all the books combined. And this sphinx happens to be someone that Sam meets on his first day at the Citadel.

The story isn't over, of course. It's possible that the meaning of Aemon's statement will be revealed later; we may not have any good clues yet about it. But from what we've read so far, I think it's most likely that it refers to Sarella. She's a very interesting character: smart, daring, a good archer,  connected to the ruling family of Dorne, and a daughter of Oberyn. She's well positioned to play some important role later in the story.

[The Sleeper]

I think the most straightforward answer is that it refers to Alleras/Sarella, pointing out that there is something going on there. And indeed there is the riddle of her identity. 

That said the way that Martin uses sphinx is more akin to the generic term chimera, as opposed to the specific monster as a mixture of disparate things. There is a variety sphinxes after all. I don't recall if all of them have human heads, which would justify the use of sphinx.

They maybe allusions to the Valyrian genetic experiments, or perhaps to skinchangers in that they share traits with their animals.