There's something wrong with Jaime's memory of certain events

[Tradecraft]

I can't put my finger on it. But there is something wrong with Jaime's memory of Brandon and Rickard's death. 

I am highly suspicious of this account from Jaime.

-The first clue I observed is the "burning of Mance Rayder". Mance isn't burned. He is replaced with the Lord of Bones. Public executions in general (and burning specifically) are highly dubious in ASOIAF (See Davos' Execution as well). I would discount every public execution in the books, since we have so many examples of "dead men" surviving their executions.

-There seems to be a nod to this idea, because Rickard is not visible. He's in full armor (another trick GRRM uses to swap people at crucial moments; Renly's armor, the Hound's helmet, etc.). Rickard also has golden Spurs. Golden spurs are traditional used by knights. Was Rickard a knight (an anointed knight in the light of the Seven?!)? 

-Bran remembers his father saying Lord Rickard was beheaded. What's up with that? Ned doesn't know how his own father died??

-Jaime isn't paying close attention. He's thinking of Cersei and claims to have been disassociating at that time.  What were Rickard and Brandon to him? Jaime's killed people in the Kingswood by now. Is he still green/squeamish?

-The Lord Commander is acting suspicious. He doesn't make any sense. 

-Jaime's assessment of the Lord Commander also seems off. The White Bull offered to guard the Queen during the Tourney at Harrenhal, and it's not the first time a KG had an affair with a queen.

-Then there is Brandon's death. Which seems straight forward... Except the text keeps associating "Little Brothers" and "Valonqars" and "Strangling" with each other. And this hands the North to Ned... And Ned is in love with Ashara Dayne at this time, a close Targaryen ally... Were the Targs gambling on Stark succession? We see such games being played with the Karstark succession... people try to get the rightful heir killed (by rebelling) because they're next in line. 

Very peculiar. 

I don't trust the account by Jaime. 

Let me know if you have anything else I can use here. 

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

32 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

-Bran remembers his father saying Lord Rickard was beheaded. What's up with that? Ned doesn't know how his own father died??

Maybe he didn't want to reveal the horrific truth to Bran until he was older? Or GRRM didn't come up with it at that point in the story?

33 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

What were Rickard and Brandon to him? Jaime's killed people in the Kingswood by now. Is he still green/squeamish?

I think there is a difference between killing a known criminal in a life-or-death duel, and watching a likely innocent person be burned alive. Jaime could probably smell the burning flesh too...

[Tradecraft]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Maybe he didn't want to reveal the horrific truth to Bran until he was older? Or GRRM didn't come up with it at that point in the story?

I think there is a difference between killing a known criminal in a life-or-death duel, and watching a likely innocent person be burned alive. Jaime could probably smell the burning flesh too...

I don't think it's a coincidence that Mance Rayder does not burn. Or the other executions are faked. 

I even think Theon's execution will be faked by Stannis in TWOW. 

He will appease his followers and the Greyjoys get back their guy who can overturn a kingsmoot. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Tradecraft said:

I don't think it's a coincidence that Mance Rayder does not burn.

But then who burned in Rickard's place? And why?

[Tradecraft]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

But then who burned in Rickard's place? And why?

Isn't that the million dollar question!

Wyman Manderly, Stannis and Melissandre want to use the "executed" person for some objective (rescue a Stark Girl in Winterfell to get in good with LC Jon Snow, return to the iron islands and take it from a usurper/cause chaos there, retrieve a stark lordling from Skagos). 

and it's fishy that Rickard Karstark gets beheaded like Bran says Lord Rickard Stark was beheaded!

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

The first clue I observed is the "burning of Mance Rayder". Mance isn't burned. He is replaced with the Lord of Bones. Public executions in general (and burning specifically) are highly dubious in ASOIAF (See Davos' Execution as well). I would discount every public execution in the books, since we have so many examples of "dead men" surviving their executions.

Really? Ned Stark, Rickard Karstark, the Antler Men, Alester Florent, Guncer Sunglass, Janos Slynt, Gared, Amory Lorch, the outlaws hanged in the Riverlands, the Florents executed at Bitterbridge, Merrett and Petyr Frey, the slavers crucified by Dany, Groleo - all of these are to be discounted?

At that point the actual story diverges so far from the one purportedly being told that it's not really a novel, more some kind of psychological experiment to see how much nonsense a reader will tolerate.

How many "false" executions actually are there in the books? Davos, Bran and Rickon, Mance, and Beric came back to life (but was really executed). Any others?

Edited August 10, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Mourning Star]

I would point out that being burned alive and being beheaded are not mutually exclusive.

Rickard's gold spurs have always been odd though.

[Tradecraft]

52 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Really? Ned Stark, Rickard Karstark, the Antler Men, Alester Florent, Guncer Sunglass, Janos Slynt, Gared, Amory Lorch, the outlaws hanged in the Riverlands, the Florents executed at Bitterbridge, Merrett and Petyr Frey, the slavers crucified by Dany, Groleo - all of these are to be discounted?

At that point the actual story diverges so far from the one purportedly being told that it's not really a novel, more some kind of psychological experiment to see how much nonsense a reader will tolerate.

How many "false" executions actually are there in the books? Davos, Bran and Rickon, Mance, and Beric came back to life (but was really executed). Any others?

Those are just the ones we know about! Muhahaha!

And it's not cheating! It's a Bard's Truth, which is different from yours or mine. 

[Sandy Clegg]

On 8/10/2023 at 3:54 PM, Tradecraft said:

Rickard also has golden Spurs. Golden spurs are traditional used by knights. Was Rickard a knight (an anointed knight in the light of the Seven?!)? 

You could see this as evidence of his Southern Ambitions, perhaps. Maybe he won them in a tourney?

[Alester Florent]

I can imagine a northern lord not having any time for southron silliness and wearing golden spurs because he's just as good a horseman/fighter as them and what are they going to do about it?

And we never know, he might have been knighted even if he's not a Sevener. Is Rodrik Cassel a follower of the Seven? Is Harras Harlaw? 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

To be honest, I dislike Mance’s fake execution. Bran’s and Davos’s make sense, but …Melisandre fake executing Mance just makes 0 sense to me. Why? And more importantly, it spawns topics like this. Listen, Rickard and Brandn are dead. I will lay down money. Any takers. I say 200 USD that Rickard and Brandon are 100% dead. I am willing to put down that much money despite hating gambling because it essentially ISN’T a gamble

[Tradecraft]

On 11/25/2023 at 11:35 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

You could see this as evidence of his Southern Ambitions, perhaps. Maybe he won them in a tourney?

Jaime is drunk when he tells the story. He may be wrong about somethings. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

10 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Jaime is drunk when he tells the story. He may be wrong about somethings. 

No. Jaime’s version of event is probably extremely close to accurate. It was a horrifying and traumatizing experience. 

[MatikTheSeventh]

The spurs are the only element of the story that is odd and might be explained in detail some other time, but otherwise I don't see the point of such theories. Jaime was just 16, he witnessed the murder of a great lord and his heir, and he was growing more disillusioned with the king by the day, so his view of the proper order of the world was breaking apart. Of course he disassociated.

And Ned not telling Bran his relatives died such horrific death until the boy is old enough was a kindness.

Edited November 27, 2023 by MatikTheSeventh

[Kal-L]

I agree that Jaime's recounting of the events is kind of blurred, mainly because Jaime was a fifteen boy lost in all the scheming that was taking place in the realm. The Great Tourney of Harrenhal, Lyanna's crowning, Rhaegar and his goons disappearance, the kidnapping of Lord Rickard's daughter and Brandon's reaction are merely the front. All that string of events that led to the fall of the Targaryens' dynasty quickly came one after another before someone could even attempt to stop it. It's normal for someone like Jaime to have a blurred memory of the event that took place and their exact chronology.

What we know is that Brandon and his friends rode towards King's Landing with Ned's brother calling out for Rhaegar.

What happened before that, did they come across some members of Rhaegar's factions who were with him when he left Dragonstone (JonCon, Myles Mooton...) ?

What happened after that, did the wild wolf immediatly submitted when Aerys ordered his arrestation (somehow I really doubt that) ?

On 8/10/2023 at 6:47 PM, Mourning Star said:

Rickard's gold spurs have always been odd though.

Well it appears to me that Lord Rickard was kind of an odd-ball in the Starks's history, looking towards the South with far more interest that any Stark before him.

He betrothed his eldest son and heir to a follower of the seven (we know that the marriage with Cat introduced the Starks to that new faith), and did the same with his only daughter sending her far away from the North regardless of her feeling about the marriage. If we compare that to the most notorious Lord Winterfell of the Targaryen's era, Cregan Stark who fathered five daughters (all unmarried for now), we can observe a huge difference of attitude in both Lords's view of the interest of their children and their relationship to the South (one introduced the seven in the North, the ther spread to old gods in the Riverlands). If anything Lyanna might not even have been interested in running with Rhaegar had she not been betrothed against her will far away from her home...

On 8/10/2023 at 5:51 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Maybe he didn't want to reveal the horrific truth to Bran until he was older? Or GRRM didn't come up with it at that point in the story?

It's most likely the first option. One should not forget that Bran is merely an eight-year-old's kid who has very basic knowledge of his family's history.

Not even Cat knew about Rickard and Brandon's horrible fate and in her case I doubt she was spared because of her age.. It's more likely that bringing on the circumstances behind his father (burned alive) and his brother (strangled to death) was so harsh to Ned that he'd rather not mention it. He was kind of sparring himself in a way.

[Alester Florent]

44 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

What we know is that Brandon and his friends rode towards King's Landing with Ned's brother calling out for Rhaegar.

What happened before that, did they come across some members of Rhaegar's factions who were with him when he left Dragonstone (JonCon, Myles Mooton...) ?

What happened after that, did the wild wolf immediatly submitted when Aerys ordered his arrestation (somehow I really doubt that) ?

There was probably a bit of a scuffle in the courtyard with the guards, but I would expect Brandon pretty quickly submitted when he realised how heavily outnumbered he was, that the guards weren't the people he was there to fight, and especially if some of his companions did submit and were effectively held hostage, and/or if crossbows and the like were in evidence, and if Brandon had already got off his horse (thus cutting off an escape route) before the guards closed in.

Or the detail of Brandon's precise words and actions might have been added after the fact by a guard sergeant who was explaining his conduct, and thought he could insulate himself from any charges of overstepping the mark in arresting a great lord's heir by exaggerating somewhat. Brandon may have just yelled for him to come out and answer for himself, or something, and by the time news reached the throne room that had turned into "Brandon was waving his sword around and shouting for Rhaegar to die".

Brandon was bold and impetuous etc. but he wasn't completely loopy-bananas: even through the red mist he probably knew a lost cause when he saw one, and in that context (given his status) he'd usually be better off submitting and arguing his way out of it rather than trying to fight and certainly being killed.

[sifth]

Ned didn't share how they died with Cat, so I doubt he would share it with Bran.

[Tradecraft]

I'd like to add that Jaime is drunk when he recalls. 

He was also disassociating when the event took place. 

 

So the memory is not on firm ground. 

[Tradecraft]

On 8/10/2023 at 12:21 PM, Alester Florent said:

Really? Ned Stark, Rickard Karstark, the Antler Men, Alester Florent, Guncer Sunglass, Janos Slynt, Gared, Amory Lorch, the outlaws hanged in the Riverlands, the Florents executed at Bitterbridge, Merrett and Petyr Frey, the slavers crucified by Dany, Groleo - all of these are to be discounted?

At that point the actual story diverges so far from the one purportedly being told that it's not really a novel, more some kind of psychological experiment to see how much nonsense a reader will tolerate.

How many "false" executions actually are there in the books? Davos, Bran and Rickon, Mance, and Beric came back to life (but was really executed). Any others?

I don't think all deaths are faked. But we're definitely not supposed to trust them all. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

On 8/10/2023 at 1:21 PM, Alester Florent said:

At that point the actual story diverges so far from the one purportedly being told that it's not really a novel, more some kind of psychological experiment to see how much nonsense a reader will tolerate.

How many "false" executions actually are there in the books? Davos, Bran and Rickon, Mance, and Beric came back to life (but was really executed). Any others?

I think Beric is slightly different? So my list would be even shorter! 

Anyhoo... between ALL the proposed fake IDs and fake executions all I can say is, why would I want to read that? 

It would be like an excercise in gotcha OMG moments. Can definitely see the abomination fitting that description but not the novels.