The Incestuous Nature of the Targaryens is What Doomed Them

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) You're boring and you just don't know what you're talking about. No. Robert didn't know and agree to Cersei having Jaime's kids. You're just objectively wrong about this. You're objectively wrong about a lot of things. As I said before, if you're a cuckold, that's your business. Stop projecting your fetish.

LOL, this thing is really getting to you, no?

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) No. Cersei isn't morally right to defraud him. I thought you said he knew anyways? You're all over the place.

I'm saying none of the people in-universe knew what Robert knew ... nor what he would have done if he had known or learned. Pretending we do is both silly and presumptuous. Even for George himself as he never wrote Robert's POV nor gave him the knowledge he seems to have lacked.

And of course Cersei was in the moral right to pay her drunkard rapist 'husband' back. Why not? Does she have no right to defend her own honor? Is she obliged to be raped by this drunkard unfaithful whoremonger?

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) No. Again. These kids are bastards as Stannis said. They weren't born in wedlock, because they weren't born to two married people. Try to follow along.

Sorry, you are either too thick to get the concept or you are pretending to be stupid. 'Born in wedlock' means 'born to a married woman'. A married woman cannot give birth to a bastard because a bastard is, by definition, a child born out of wedlock, i.e. to an unmarried woman.

That this is also the case in Westeros you see from the silly bastard name tradition. You can only get a bastard name if your mother is unwed. If she is wed you are by default the son of her husband. A good example for this is King Aegon III Targaryen. He was apparently conceived quite some time before Daemon and Rhaenyra's wedding, meaning he could actually be Laenor's or Harwin's son ... but he seen as Daemon's trueborn son because he was born during Rhaenyra's and Daemon's marriage.

Cersei's children will never be bastards in this sense. Even Stannis doesn't dare to call them by bastard names in his filthy letters.

A king certainly could declare his children bastards in this world as he can also declare bastards legitimate ... but that is a legal thing not a biological or factual thing. A king could also declare trueborn children bastards or he could declare bastards that weren't fathered by him his trueborn children. In fact, we only have the word of the lying Unworthy that Daemon Blackfyre is his son. Can we believe that?

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) I don't know. Cersei's pretty stupid, which is why her rule was so short. She had Robert killed and then said that she meant to deal with his brothers first. She obviously meant to have them killed too. You just have very poor reading comprehension skills. Also, Melara Heatherspoon was a "bitch" that deserved to die for lusting after Jaime? Cersei's bastards are innocent kids though (agreed in the case of Tommen and Myrcella). Even Joffrey.

The word 'deal' allows for interpretation there. And Cersei is not stupid. She is unhinged and paranoid in AFfC, but she is not stupid. In Cersei's eyes the girl was a bitch, obviously.

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) There's no evidence of that. All we know is that Robert was "dutiful" towards his brothers, "loved" his children and asked Ned to make sure that they were taken care of. I'm not saying he was the greatest father. Of course, Cersei was a terrible mother that helped turn Joffrey into a monster and would have ruined Tommen too. Both of her last kids will die by the time this series is over. Just like in the TV Show and a lot of that is her fault.

It may be her fault in the books. Or perhaps Jon Connington and the Sand Snakes just want to bathe in Lannister or Baratheon blood.

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

6) No. The Lannisters are already hated. It would just be seen as another example of their madness, degeneracy and evil as Catelyn pointed out.

I'm not sure fucking Catelyn can properly assess the popularity of House Lannister in the larger Realm.

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

7) Nope. He doesn't need a trial. He can just kill them.

That is clearly a sign that you have lost it. Cersei is a queen, damn it! Of course she deserves a fucking trial. She isn't Mycah or some other peasant scum you can cut to pieces with impunity.

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

8) Try to follow along. But there's a difference between legal recognition and bastardy. Even if two unmarried parents have a child and get married later, that child is considered a bastard.

Actually, no. The bastard children of Lady Sam and Lord Lyonel Hightower were legitimate after they finally got permission to marry.

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

9) Nope. Stannis wasn't fine with it as George has stated himself inside and outside of the books.

LOL, of course Stannis was fine with not telling Robert his little suspicions. Else he would have done so rather than hiding on his island for an entire year!

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

10) If you're not saying that Robert was fine with it, then stop trying to argue that it was possible that he was okay with it. He wasn't. Let's move on. And no. Robert wouldn't have accepted it after the fact. He'd have killed them. Nothing would be worse than knowing and letting them get away with it.

You just don't know that. And you are fool to pretend you know what a fictional drunkard would have done. Robert was a windbag, easily angry, easily soothed. We have no clue what Cersei could have done to sway his mind. The likeliest scenario is that he wouldn't have believed the story anyway.

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

11) No. They know. And people don't consider it a siilly story. They know, but some of them find it convenient to ignore it. Whch is why both Olenna and Margaery take shots at the Lannisiters for it. Even Brienne's figured it out. Once the secret was out, it's easy enough to come to the correct conclusion.

People just don't give a damn about this story. Like at all. Else Tommen wouldn't still sit the throne.

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

12) You'd know a lot about cuckolding and humiliation. Wouldn't you? There'd be embarrassment there as you'd know, but the proper course of action would be to kill Cersei and Jaime (in their world) as Victarion did. And the fact that Cersei and Jaime were twins, would say a lot more about them than it would about Robert as a man.

You show what kind of twisted person you are if you actually cite bloody Victarion as a positive example.

You also don't seem to understand politics in a fake medieval society. This thing is so huge a scandal that Robert could not possibly survive it. He is a bloody usurper himself, with little to no legal claim to the throne he stole. And now it comes out that his Heir Apparent and all his other children are not his own but the children of the monstrous twin brother of his queen?! Not only would that make Robert a laughingstock, personally, but it would be seen as a divine sign that the Seven condemn the entire so-called 'Baratheon dynasty' - which isn't a dynasty at all but an incestuous whorehouse, apparently.

Robert himself is a ruin of a man, self-medicating his depression with ever more wine. Mentally he would never survive this, even if Jaime or the Hound wouldn't kill him during their confrontation.

This is a patriarchal society. Men whose women cuckold their men in this fashion are jokes. And Robert was a joke in any case, lacking the strength to do what was necessary every step on the way.

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Okay, I will go that low.

That's not the important part. The important part is if Renly rebelled/plotted in mind with the tought that he inevitably has to step over the dead bodies of 3 bastards or the bodies of his niece and two nephews. (Both are insanely bad)

You wanna bet which one was it? 

Buddies share lines.

The person just doesn't get it that both Renly's and Stannis' actions aren't justifiable if they don't know about the twincest or merely believe in it - like Stannis does. Without proof this is the vilest of treasons.

And even if you believe in it very much - it is still asshole behavior to want to murder your legal nephews and niece just so you could sit a throne. Family is not just blood - not even in Westeros. And faking relations, etc. is actually not so uncommon. Or why is it a noble thing for Ned to turn a royal prince into his bastard? Also, of course, Ned is and will remain Jon's father in the real sense of the word. Rhaegar will never be more than the sperm-donor there.

Stannis is Richard III (i.e. a complete asshole) who just happens to be right. But to our knowledge he has no confirmation that he is right. He just believes a very implausible story.

And Renly is much worse than that. And his entire plot makes actually little sense in the larger context. It is so poorly written. Nobody should follow this guy and preach about him being 'the king'. That is a joke. It is as if all of the North and the Vale would preach that Rickon Stark was the rightful Lord of Winterfell.

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

How? By think that paternity fraud is deeply immoral and that the family that's being defrauded don't have to just accept it? Renly owed them nothing. Neither did Stannis.

LOL, paternity fraud? There is no such thing in Westeros where you can't even pretend to investigate paternity. This is why even Jaime and Cersei do only strongly believe the children are Jaime's. Even they can't know. Because as I said - if there was no vaginal intercourse between Cersei and Robert when the children were conceived Robert would never believe they were his. It is possible Cersei could trick and drunk Robert three times into believe he actually fucked her ... but I find that hard to believe. The guy was no complete drunkard back when Joffrey was conceived.

[Lee-Sensei]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, this thing is really getting to you, no?

I'm saying none of the people in-universe knew what Robert knew ... nor what he would have done if he had known or learned. Pretending we do is both silly and presumptuous. Even for George himself as he never wrote Robert's POV nor gave him the knowledge he seems to have lacked.

And of course Cersei was in the moral right to pay her drunkard rapist 'husband' back. Why not? Does she have no right to defend her own honor? Is she obliged to be raped by this drunkard unfaithful whoremonger?

Sorry, you are either too thick to get the concept or you are pretending to be stupid. 'Born in wedlock' means 'born to a married woman'. A married woman cannot give birth to a bastard because a bastard is, by definition, a child born out of wedlock, i.e. to an unmarried woman.

That this is also the case in Westeros you see from the silly bastard name tradition. You can only get a bastard name if your mother is unwed. If she is wed you are by default the son of her husband. A good example for this is King Aegon III Targaryen. He was apparently conceived quite some time before Daemon and Rhaenyra's wedding, meaning he could actually be Laenor's or Harwin's son ... but he seen as Daemon's trueborn son because he was born during Rhaenyra's and Daemon's marriage.

Cersei's children will never be bastards in this sense. Even Stannis doesn't dare to call them by bastard names in his filthy letters.

A king certainly could declare his children bastards in this world as he can also declare bastards legitimate ... but that is a legal thing not a biological or factual thing. A king could also declare trueborn children bastards or he could declare bastards that weren't fathered by him his trueborn children. In fact, we only have the word of the lying Unworthy that Daemon Blackfyre is his son. Can we believe that?

The word 'deal' allows for interpretation there. And Cersei is not stupid. She is unhinged and paranoid in AFfC, but she is not stupid. In Cersei's eyes the girl was a bitch, obviously.

It may be her fault in the books. Or perhaps Jon Connington and the Sand Snakes just want to bathe in Lannister or Baratheon blood.

I'm not sure fucking Catelyn can properly assess the popularity of House Lannister in the larger Realm.

That is clearly a sign that you have lost it. Cersei is a queen, damn it! Of course she deserves a fucking trial. She isn't Mycah or some other peasant scum you can cut to pieces with impunity.

Actually, no. The bastard children of Lady Sam and Lord Lyonel Hightower were legitimate after they finally got permission to marry.

LOL, of course Stannis was fine with not telling Robert his little suspicions. Else he would have done so rather than hiding on his island for an entire year!

You just don't know that. And you are fool to pretend you know what a fictional drunkard would have done. Robert was a windbag, easily angry, easily soothed. We have no clue what Cersei could have done to sway his mind. The likeliest scenario is that he wouldn't have believed the story anyway.

People just don't give a damn about this story. Like at all. Else Tommen wouldn't still sit the throne.

You show what kind of twisted person you are if you actually cite bloody Victarion as a positive example.

You also don't seem to understand politics in a fake medieval society. This thing is so huge a scandal that Robert could not possibly survive it. He is a bloody usurper himself, with little to no legal claim to the throne he stole. And now it comes out that his Heir Apparent and all his other children are not his own but the children of the monstrous twin brother of his queen?! Not only would that make Robert a laughingstock, personally, but it would be seen as a divine sign that the Seven condemn the entire so-called 'Baratheon dynasty' - which isn't a dynasty at all but an incestuous whorehouse, apparently.

Robert himself is a ruin of a man, self-medicating his depression with ever more wine. Mentally he would never survive this, even if Jaime or the Hound wouldn't kill him during their confrontation.

This is a patriarchal society. Men whose women cuckold their men in this fashion are jokes. And Robert was a joke in any case, lacking the strength to do what was necessary every step on the way.

The person just doesn't get it that both Renly's and Stannis' actions aren't justifiable if they don't know about the twincest or merely believe in it - like Stannis does. Without proof this is the vilest of treasons.

And even if you believe in it very much - it is still asshole behavior to want to murder your legal nephews and niece just so you could sit a throne. Family is not just blood - not even in Westeros. And faking relations, etc. is actually not so uncommon. Or why is it a noble thing for Ned to turn a royal prince into his bastard? Also, of course, Ned is and will remain Jon's father in the real sense of the word. Rhaegar will never be more than the sperm-donor there.

Stannis is Richard III (i.e. a complete asshole) who just happens to be right. But to our knowledge he has no confirmation that he is right. He just believes a very implausible story.

And Renly is much worse than that. And his entire plot makes actually little sense in the larger context. It is so poorly written. Nobody should follow this guy and preach about him being 'the king'. That is a joke. It is as if all of the North and the Vale would preach that Rickon Stark was the rightful Lord of Winterfell.

LOL, paternity fraud? There is no such thing in Westeros where you can't even pretend to investigate paternity. This is why even Jaime and Cersei do only strongly believe the children are Jaime's. Even they can't know. Because as I said - if there was no vaginal intercourse between Cersei and Robert when the children were conceived Robert would never believe they were his. It is possible Cersei could trick and drunk Robert three times into believe he actually fucked her ... but I find that hard to believe. The guy was no complete drunkard back when Joffrey was conceived.

Yeah. I'm not going to waste my time responding point by point. A few things remain true.

1) No. The Renly and Stannis don't owe anything to Cersei or her kids. Those aren't their relatives.

2) No. Most normal people aren't okay with getting cuckolded. That's just your fetish.

3) Yes. Cersei and Joffrey are monsters. They aren't like Jaime or Tyrion who are flawed people with good qualities too. Which is why George says that sometimes he felt like he needed to take a shower after writing Cersei, because she's so unsympathetic. Melara Heatherspoon isn't a "bitch" that deserved to die. She was murdered by a monster.

4) Yes. Stannis knew that those were bastards.

5) No. Robert being unaware, doesn't change the fact that Cersei's kids are bastards. You'd understand this if you had better reading comprehension skills.

bastard definition · LSData

Try to follow along, bud.

A Digest of the Laws of England - Google Books

6) Yes. Paternity fraud exists. That's what the succession crisis was about and why what Cersei and Jaime were doing was called treason. Even by Jaime himself.

Quote

He wondered what his cousin would say if he were to confess his own sins, the three treasons Cersei had named Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella.

Jaime's sins. The three treasons. You'd know this if you'd read the books.

Also, after a quick skimming of your post. I don't think the Sand Snakes ever indicated that they want to bathe in Baratheon blood. The only Baratheon that they dislike is Robert and that's because he didn't punish the Lannisters. They hate the Lannisters and Robert because of his association with the Lannisters.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Yeah. I'm not going to waste my time responding point by point. A few things remain true.

1) No. The Renly and Stannis don't owe anything to Cersei or her kids. Those aren't their relatives.

LOL, of course they are their relatives. Even if we go with the twincest, Cersei is Robert's wife so they are THEIR FUCKING IN LAWS JUST AS JAIME IS!

In-laws are relatives, too. And they were their legal nephews and niece in any case. Even if Robert had declared them bastards that wouldn't change the fact that for the birth of the children until that declaration they were their nephews and niece.

13 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) No. Most normal people aren't okay with getting cuckolded. That's just your fetish.

And your greatest fear seems to be to be a victim of paternity fraud, lol.

13 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) Yes. Cersei and Joffrey are monsters. They aren't like Jaime or Tyrion who are flawed people with good qualities too. Which is why George says that sometimes he felt like he needed to take a shower after writing Cersei, because she's so unsympathetic. Melara Heatherspoon isn't a "bitch" that deserved to die. She was murdered by a monster.

LOL, I'm not sure you get the story ... like, at all. Cersei is the heroine of her own story, just like all the other POVs. And Joffrey is a bully with sadistic tendencies but still a child when he is murdered in cold blood. He is no monster.

13 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) Yes. Stannis knew that those were bastards.

Nope, he just believes it, apparently, or pretends to believe. He knows nothing unless the author confirms how he got that 'knowledge'. And as long as we don't have a Stannis POV we have to take everything the repressed asshole says with a grain of salt ... as he lies a lot, even to himself.

13 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) No. Robert being unaware, doesn't change the fact that Cersei's kids are bastards. You'd understand this if you had better reading comprehension skills.

Nope, bastardy is a legal concept and not a biological fact. Only children born out of wedlock are bastards in Westeros.

13 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

6) Yes. Paternity fraud exists. That's what the succession crisis was about and why what Cersei and Jaime were doing was called treason. Even by Jaime himself.

No, people believing in that shit exist. That is why there is a succession crisis. It could have also happened if Stannis had just claimed their was 'fraud' involved with it not being the case - not to mention that fucking Renly the shithead wanted the throne in any case.

13 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Also, after a quick skimming of your post. I don't think the Sand Snakes ever indicated that they want to bathe in Baratheon blood. The only Baratheon that they dislike is Robert and that's because he didn't punish the Lannisters. They hate the Lannisters and Robert because of his association with the Lannisters.

The Sand Snakes and Jon Connington don't give shit about the twincest. They want to kill Cersei's children because they are Robert's and Tywin's descendants, not just because they are Lannisters. And Jon is likely also going to do away with Robert's bastards and Stannis and Shireen if he can. Better safe than sorry. The bloodline of the usurper has to end.

The Martells have larger issues with Tywin due to him commanding the murder of Elia and her children. But Robert killed Rhaegar, and the Lannisters murdered their royals in Robert's name. He and his house are their enemies, too. It is just not so personal on that level. Also, Robert is already dead. But his (legal) brood survives ... yet.

[Lee-Sensei]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, of course they are their relatives. Even if we go with the twincest, Cersei is Robert's wife so they are THEIR FUCKING IN LAWS JUST AS JAIME IS!

In-laws are relatives, too. And they were their legal nephews and niece in any case. Even if Robert had declared them bastards that wouldn't change the fact that for the birth of the children until that declaration they were their nephews and niece.

And your greatest fear seems to be to be a victim of paternity fraud, lol.

LOL, I'm not sure you get the story ... like, at all. Cersei is the heroine of her own story, just like all the other POVs. And Joffrey is a bully with sadistic tendencies but still a child when he is murdered in cold blood. He is no monster.

Nope, he just believes it, apparently, or pretends to believe. He knows nothing unless the author confirms how he got that 'knowledge'. And as long as we don't have a Stannis POV we have to take everything the repressed asshole says with a grain of salt ... as he lies a lot, even to himself.

Nope, bastardy is a legal concept and not a biological fact. Only children born out of wedlock are bastards in Westeros.

No, people believing in that shit exist. That is why there is a succession crisis. It could have also happened if Stannis had just claimed their was 'fraud' involved with it not being the case - not to mention that fucking Renly the shithead wanted the throne in any case.

The Sand Snakes and Jon Connington don't give shit about the twincest. They want to kill Cersei's children because they are Robert's and Tywin's descendants, not just because they are Lannisters. And Jon is likely also going to do away with Robert's bastards and Stannis and Shireen if he can. Better safe than sorry. The bloodline of the usurper has to end.

The Martells have larger issues with Tywin due to him commanding the murder of Elia and her children. But Robert killed Rhaegar, and the Lannisters murdered their royals in Robert's name. He and his house are their enemies, too. It is just not so personal on that level. Also, Robert is already dead. But his (legal) brood survives ... yet.

1) Dummy. Then what is their relationship to Stannis and Renly? They're not their nephews and neice. They aren't Robert's step children either. How are they related?

2) It's not my greatest fear. I just recognize it as immoral like most people. I know that's strange to you though, since it's your fetish.

3) Do you get it? George has even called Tyrion a viillain and he's a far better person than Cersei or Joffrey. Yes. People can think they're the heroes of their story. That doesn't make them heroes. And for what it's worth, George has called the Lannisters (and Greyjoys) evil before.

4) Nope. Stannis knows. You just don't know this, because you haven't read the books or watched the show.

5) I posted links (not that I should have to). You're just objectively wrong.

wedlock

noun

wed·lock ˈwed-ˌläk 

Synonyms of wedlock

: the state of being married : MARRIAGE, MATRIMONY

Phrases

out of wedlock

: with the natural parents not legally married to each other.

This is the problem when you start using words that you don't understand. Yes. Those kids are bastards. To be born in wedlock, means to be born to two married parents. Jaime and Cersei weren't married, so their kids are bastards. And even if they had been out and public about their "relationship", no Septon would support it. The only people that were able to get away with close relative incest were the Targaryens and they had dragons for more than half of their time in Westeros. Tommen and Myrcella are good kids and don't deserve to die, but they are bastards.

6) It exists. That's the whole point of the succession crisis.

7) The Sand Snakes hate Robert, because he didn't punish the Lannisters. Connington is another issue that's separate from the Lannisters. I'll grant you that much.

8) The Martells didn't give care about Rhaegar, but you wouldn't know that, because you don't read. The idea that they hate him for killing Rhaegar is laughable. The Targaryens maybe. The Martells cared about Elia, her children and Llewyn Martell.

Quote

First. When Cersei and Ned talked in the godswood in aGoT, she mentioned Jon, and wondered who his mother was, (paraphrasing) "...Some peasant wife you raped, while her holdfast burned?" This indicates that there were fightings in Dorne when Ned went there to get Lyanna back. But I thought the Martells stayed out of the war, and that Ned went there when the war was all over. So: did Ned take an army with him into Dorne, or not?

Ned's army did not accompany him to Dorne, no. There were no battles in Dorne during Robert's Rebellion, though doubtless there were minor skirmishes along the borders. But it's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution. Cersei's line reflects no more than a desire to wound, to say something nasty to get a rise out of Ned.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[SaffronLady]

38 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Dummy. Then what is their relationship to Stannis and Renly? They're not their nephews and neice. They aren't Robert's step children either. How are they related?

In-laws is a valid relationship. You should stress that if they aren't Robert's children, they aren't in the Baratheon line of succession.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

7 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

In-laws is a valid relationship. You should stress that if they aren't Robert's children, they aren't in the Baratheon line of succession.

It is. My point is that Cersei's kids aren't the Baratheons' in-laws. Cersei's their sister-in-law. They aren't Renly's nephews and niece, because they aren't Robert's kids. They aren't even step children, because step kids are children that a man (or woman) already had when they got married. The whole thing is fraudulent.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) Dummy. Then what is their relationship to Stannis and Renly? They're not their nephews and neice. They aren't Robert's step children either. How are they related?

They would then be in-laws, which are relations and kin in any sane and civilized society.

37 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) It's not my greatest fear. I just recognize it as immoral like most people. I know that's strange to you though, since it's your fetish.

LOL, no, it isn't immoral. It is actually immoral to sleep around yourself - like the asshead Robert - and then demand your wife is faithful to you. In a larger context it is also immoral to demand that a woman keeps track of her sex partners or tell you or anyone who the father of her children is.

Marriage is a cage for women.

37 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) Do you get it? George has even called Tyrion a viillain and he's a far better person than Cersei or Joffrey. Yes. People can think they're the heroes of their story. That doesn't make them heroes. And for what it's worth, George has called the Lannisters (and Greyjoys) evil before.

I don't care about George interpreting his own story - or simplifying it. Asha Greyjoy is no villain, no matter what he said.

37 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) Nope. Stannis knows. You just don't know this, because you haven't read the books or watched the show.

LOL, then tell me how Stannis know about the twincest. Can you do that? No, you can't.

37 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) I posted links (not that I should have to). You're just objectively wrong.

wedlock

noun

wed·lock ˈwed-ˌläk 

Synonyms of wedlock

: the state of being married : MARRIAGE, MATRIMONY

Phrases

out of wedlock

: with the natural parents not legally married to each other.

This is the problem when you start using words that you don't understand. Yes. Those kids are bastards. To be born in wedlock, means to be born to two married parents. Jaime and Cersei weren't married, so their kids are bastards. And even if they had been out and public about their "relationship", no Septon would support it. The only people that were able to get away with close relative incest were the Targaryens and they had dragons for more than half of their time in Westeros. Tommen and Myrcella are good kids and don't deserve to die, but they are bastards.

We talk about Robert's and Cersei's children there. They were married and during their marriage Cersei produced three children which are Robert's. We can't even say he was actively deceived there as Cersei may have never said to him 'Bobby, you fathered the kids'. He might have just assumed they were his because he didn't think his wife slept around.

37 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

6) It exists. That's the whole point of the succession crisis.

Nope, it isn't. Only Stannis is motivated by that shit and he is little more than a footnote. Renly and Balon are motivated by vile ambition, and Robb by his own issues with the Lannisters with have effectively nothing to do with the twincest - even if there was no twincest the Lannisters would have still not suffered Ned as Lord Regent.

37 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

7) The Sand Snakes hate Robert, because he didn't punish the Lannisters. Connington is another issue that's separate from the Lannisters. I'll grant you that much.

8) The Martells didn't give care about Rhaegar, but you wouldn't know that, because you don't read. The idea that they hate him for killing Rhaegar is laughable. The Targaryens maybe. The Martells cared about Elia, her children and Llewyn Martell.

That makes little sense as Rhaegar was Elia's husband and the father of her children. Doran Martell betrothed his heir to Viserys III to avenge both houses on the Baratheons and the Lannisters.

And nobody gives shit about Lewyn. Nobody ever said anything about it being unjust that he died in war.

5 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

In-laws is a valid relationship. You should stress that if they aren't Robert's children, they aren't in the Baratheon line of succession.

Only if King Robert were confirming this. He is the king and head of house there, not fucking Stannis, not fucking Ned, and certainly not fucking Renly. Their opinions do not matter. Cersei's children are Robert's legal children until he says they are not - independent of actual parentage. Robert could also declare his trueborn brothers bastards if he so wished.

The reason why there is a bloody succession war is in no part because nobody ever told Robert. Sure enough, he may have failed to prevent it, too ... but Ned, Stannis, Renly, etc. have no right to declare the king's children illegitimate. They have no royal powers.

[Lee-Sensei]

 1) You didn't answer the questions. Concession accepted.

2) Yes. Lying to someone about the paternity of their children is immoral. Don't get it mixed up with your fetish. Also, I know this is in part, because you don't read the books, but Cersei was afraid that Robert would end their marriage. Isn't that strange?

Quote

"Mothers. " The man made the word sound like a curse. "I think birthing does something to your minds. You are all mad. " He laughed. It was a bitter sound. "Let Lady Arryn grow as bold as she likes. Whatever she knows, whatever she thinks she knows, she has no proof. " He paused a moment. "Or does she?"

"Do you think the king will require proof?" the woman said. "I tell you, he loves me not. "

"And whose fault is that, sweet sister?"

Bran studied the ledge. He could drop down. It was too narrow to land on, but if he could catch hold as he fell past, pull himself up . . . except that might make a noise, draw them to the window. He was not sure what he was hearing, but he knew it was not meant for his ears.

"You are as blind as Robert," the woman was saying.

"If you mean I see the same thing, yes," the man said. "I see a man who would sooner die than betray his king. "

"He betrayed one already, or have you forgotten?" the woman said. "Oh, I don't deny he's loyal to Robert, that's obvious. What happens when Robert dies and Joff takes the throne? And the sooner that comes to pass, the safer we'll all be. My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

 

3) I don't care about you not caring, but he was probably referring to them more generally as a villainous house. Certainly, the worst members of those Houses like Euron, Tywin and Cersei are viewed as evil.

4) No. I'm not going to explain the story to you. Read it or not. That's your choice. Stannis knew and he was right.

5) Again, I know you don't read the story, so I'll point out that she does tell hm that those are his children. More than once.

Quote

“The girl is as wild as that filthy animal of hers,” Cersei Lannister said. “Robert, I want her punished.”

“Seven hells,” Robert swore. “Cersei, look at her. She’s a child. What would you have me do, whip her through the streets? Damn it, children fight. It’s over. No lasting harm was done.”

The queen was furious. “Joff will carry those scars for the rest of his life.”

Robert Baratheon looked at his eldest son. “So he will. Perhaps they will teach him a lesson. Ned, see that your daughter is disciplined. I will do the same with my son.”

“Gladly, Your Grace,” Ned said with vast relief.

Robert started to walk away, but the queen was not done. “And what of the direwolf?” she called after him. “What of the beast that savaged your son?”

These are things that you'd know if you'd read the books. You should try it some time. And for the record, we find out later what that punishment Cersei wanted for Arya was from Jaime. 

Quote

Ned Stark’s daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you’ll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night … well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry’s bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword … but you know that story, don’t you?“ He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. "As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, ‘I want.’ I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead.” The things I do for love. “It was only by chance that Stark’s own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first...”

Cersei "not a monster" Lannister wanted Arya to get her hand cut off for a fight that she had to have known her son started. Actually, she wanted this 10 year old girl killed, but I guess she probably knew that Robert would see even maiming her as way too far. So she tried had sex with her brother to convince him to kill or maim Arya. Not a monster.

6) Let's put it this way. Ned wouldn't even be regent with Robert alive. If Robert hadn't married Cersei, the Wot5K just doesn't happen. Ned is never killed by Joffrey for telling the truth about his bastardy, because Joffrey doesn't exist. Stannis doesn't rebel, because Robert is alive with legitimate heirs. Renly doesn't rebel, because Robert is alive with legitimate heirs. Balon doesn't rebel, because Robert's alive. I wouldn't even put this on the Lannisters as a whole. Tywin never supported what Cersei was doing. Kevan clearly doesn't either, since he obviously resents the twins by AFFC. Cersei especially.

7) That's because you don't actually read the stuff. No. The Dornishmen weren't happy with Rhaegar and don't care about them. Why would they when Rhaegar was disrespecting Doran and Oberyn's sister. They want to rejoin the Targaryens, because they hate the Lannsiters a lot more and House Targaryen is their best bet at getting revenge.

8) No. They absolutely have that right, because Cersei's committing fraud. Those are bastards and they're right to say it. Because of Cersei's choices, all of her kids have targets on their backs. Joffrey's already dead. Myrcella has been maimed (karma for trying to maim Arya maybe, although Myrcella doesn't deserve it). Tommen isn't long for this world either. Just like in the show, her line will end, because of the choices that she made.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

My point is that Cersei's kids aren't the Baratheons' in-laws. Cersei's their sister-in-law. They aren't Renly's nephews and niece, because they aren't Robert's kids. They aren't even step children, because step kids are children that a man (or woman) already had when they got married. The whole thing is fraudulent.

I get your point is how paternity fraud muddles relationships, I get it.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Only if King Robert were confirming this. He is the king and head of house there, not fucking Stannis, not fucking Ned, and certainly not fucking Renly. Their opinions do not matter. Cersei's children are Robert's legal children until he says they are not - independent of actual parentage. Robert could also declare his trueborn brothers bastards if he so wished.

The reason why there is a bloody succession war is in no part because nobody ever told Robert. Sure enough, he may have failed to prevent it, too ... but Ned, Stannis, Renly, etc. have no right to declare the king's children illegitimate. They have no royal powers.

Technically everything you said is true.

In context, if the children are discernable bastards, then claiming the throne/seizing power as royal regent based on their fraudulent paternity is valid casus belli/cause for action.

[Odej]

On 9/16/2023 at 10:50 AM, Lord Varys said:

That is all irrelevant. In-universe nobody asking Robert directly can now ... and nobody did know. Robert talking about Joff to Ned could be him putting on an act because he doesn't want to appear a cuckold in public.

 

22 hours ago, Odej said:

I've been following the discussion and I really need to talk about this.

How can be irrelevant the writer's words about his own character? Martin gives many information about asoiaf universe in interviews and on his blog, not only in the books. And since we don't have Robert's POV (same case to many other characters) this is a good way to get his feelings about things that weren't shown in the books, whatever was the reason for Martin didn't do it.

Aren't these informations canon to you because they aren't in the books even though the owner of the story had said it?

I'm still waiting for the answer to this question. I think that all this discussion has no point if one of the parts don't take as true what the writer says about his own characters.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

 1) You didn't answer the questions. Concession accepted.

2) Yes. Lying to someone about the paternity of their children is immoral. Don't get it mixed up with your fetish. Also, I know this is in part, because you don't read the books, but Cersei was afraid that Robert would end their marriage. Isn't that strange?

The point here is that it is actually presumptuous of a man to demand that he is the father of the children of the woman he fucks ... because she has every right to fuck whoever she wants.

So, yes, the legal institution of monogamous marriage is actually highly immoral in that sense. Especially in this silly setting where the guys can father bastards left and right but the women have to be faithful.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) No. I'm not going to explain the story to you. Read it or not. That's your choice. Stannis knew and he was right.

Stannis is an asshead who is accidentally right. But that doesn't make his actions right. And the Realm knows this, that is why they piss on his so-called 'claim'.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) Again, I know you don't read the story, so I'll point out that she does tell hm that those are his children. More than once.

Once Robert accepted them as his children Cersei is just referring to their legal status. Where does she actually tell Robert that he fathered the children? Robert took them as his children - is it Cersei's fault that he didn't suspect her of sleeping around? You know - like fucking Robert himself did?

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

These are things that you'd know if you'd read the books. You should try it some time. And for the record, we find out later what that punishment Cersei wanted for Arya was from Jaime. 

Cersei "not a monster" Lannister wanted Arya to get her hand cut off for a fight that she had to have known her son started. Actually, she wanted this 10 year old girl killed, but I guess she probably knew that Robert would see even maiming her as way too far. So she tried had sex with her brother to convince him to kill or maim Arya. Not a monster.

Arya made Joffrey look like a fool. And she did injure him for the sake of peasant scum. Cersei wasn't there, didn't witness the events, only knows what Joff told her. The laws of the Seven Kingdoms demand that anyone striking a person of royal blood loses the limb in question. Ned should have taught Arya that, should have taught her to not attack a royal prince. He failed to do that. You know what fucking Arya did in the Mycah incident? She sided with peasant scum over her future king and the betrothed of her elder sister. She effectively put peasant scum before family, actually. Because Joffrey would one day be her brother-in-law. With out modern eyes we side with her intuitively, but within this feudal world and its values Arya acted like a lunatic. Sansa understands this and that is why she is so pissed at Arya over this.

Sure enough - the punishment there is an extreme thing. But this no nice world. 

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

6) Let's put it this way. Ned wouldn't even be regent with Robert alive. If Robert hadn't married Cersei, the Wot5K just doesn't happen. Ned is never killed by Joffrey for telling the truth about his bastardy, because Joffrey doesn't exist. Stannis doesn't rebel, because Robert is alive with legitimate heirs. Renly doesn't rebel, because Robert is alive with legitimate heirs. Balon doesn't rebel, because Robert's alive. I wouldn't even put this on the Lannisters as a whole. Tywin never supported what Cersei was doing. Kevan clearly doesn't either, since he obviously resents the twins by AFFC. Cersei especially.

LOL, no. Those people are still all ambitious. Renly wants to be king, he will find an excuse for stealing the throne. Just as Stannis did.

That things would be totally different if some people married other people is clear. But that is no argument for anything.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

7) That's because you don't actually read the stuff. No. The Dornishmen weren't happy with Rhaegar and don't care about them. Why would they when Rhaegar was disrespecting Doran and Oberyn's sister. They want to rejoin the Targaryens, because they hate the Lannsiters a lot more and House Targaryen is their best bet at getting revenge.

That is also part of it, but they are not fans of the bloody house that stole the throne from Aegon's father and thus also from Aegon.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

8) No. They absolutely have that right, because Cersei's committing fraud. Those are bastards and they're right to say it. Because of Cersei's choices, all of her kids have targets on their backs. Joffrey's already dead. Myrcella has been maimed (karma for trying to maim Arya maybe, although Myrcella doesn't deserve it). Tommen isn't long for this world either. Just like in the show, her line will end, because of the choices that she made.

Do you think anyone cares about Cersei's line?

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

I get your point is how paternity fraud muddles relationships, I get it.

What muddles relationships is such stories and rumors, not acts. Remember, Stannis could have been wrong - like people were wrong about Naerys and the Dragonknight or, perhaps, about Rhaenyra and Harwin and Rhaenys and her singers, mummers and mimes.

The whole point of this series is that there are no paternity tests and thus no black-and-white. Stannis could be right ... or not. People will never know. We know or believe we know because we have special insight into some characters, but Westeros at large can never know.

And it is actually quite silly to take any sides in the Baratheon succession struggle as Robert himself is a bloody usurper. He is not the universally accepted king of the Seven Kingdoms, so why should the readership care who succeeds him? His is a rotten or questionable kingship, anyway. If we follow Robert's own standards then Joff and Tommen are the rightful kings because they won. Renly got crushed, Balon got crushed, Stannis got crushed, Robb got crushed.

It doesn't matter who their biological father is, just as it didn't really matter that Robert had a Targaryen grandmother. He took the throne because he won some battles and Tywin and Jaime did the dirty work for him.

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

Technically everything you said is true.

In context, if the children are discernable bastards, then claiming the throne/seizing power as royal regent based on their fraudulent paternity is valid casus belli/cause for action.

If Ned or Stannis had found out after Robert's death, perhaps. But once a king is crowned and anointed it would still be treason.

The water is muddied by the fact that Stannis 'knew' long before Robert's death and never told him and Ned himself knew but failed to tell Robert. It is treason to keep something like that from Robert and then presume you know who the throne should pass to. You don't second-guess the wishes of your king or correct his decrees on the basis of knowledge you keep from him.

Ned's decision is clouded by his own desire to not be Hand nor regent but go back home. He wants Stannis to be king because he won't need or want him as his Hand.

42 minutes ago, Odej said:

I'm still waiting for the answer to this question. I think that all this discussion has no point if one of the parts don't take as true what the writer says about his own characters.

Nothing George says in interviews or informally about his characters or story is canon. It is not published nor intended for publication in many cases. Also it is self-interpretation if he tells us how a character would behave in a hypothetical scenario he never wrote. His guess there is no more valid than yours or mine.

[Odej]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Nothing George says in interviews or informally about his characters or story is canon. It is not published nor intended for publication in many cases. Also it is self-interpretation if he tells us how a character would behave in a hypothetical scenario he never wrote. His guess there is no more valid than yours or mine.

Thank you.

@Lee-Sensei If I can give you a advise, I believe you are loosing your time with this.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Odej

[Dragonbane]

Mad Targaryen concepts because inbreeding is a giant misinterpretation of TV show. Only two Targaryen kings (Baelor and Aerys II) was true mad. Personally, I think that "Targaryen madness" was caused by dragon dream. In fact before Dance there weren't Targaryen truly mad.

[Lee-Sensei]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The point here is that it is actually presumptuous of a man to demand that he is the father of the children of the woman he fucks ... because she has every right to fuck whoever she wants.

So, yes, the legal institution of monogamous marriage is actually highly immoral in that sense. Especially in this silly setting where the guys can father bastards left and right but the women have to be faithful.

Stannis is an asshead who is accidentally right. But that doesn't make his actions right. And the Realm knows this, that is why they piss on his so-called 'claim'.

Once Robert accepted them as his children Cersei is just referring to their legal status. Where does she actually tell Robert that he fathered the children? Robert took them as his children - is it Cersei's fault that he didn't suspect her of sleeping around? You know - like fucking Robert himself did?

Arya made Joffrey look like a fool. And she did injure him for the sake of peasant scum. Cersei wasn't there, didn't witness the events, only knows what Joff told her. The laws of the Seven Kingdoms demand that anyone striking a person of royal blood loses the limb in question. Ned should have taught Arya that, should have taught her to not attack a royal prince. He failed to do that. You know what fucking Arya did in the Mycah incident? She sided with peasant scum over her future king and the betrothed of her elder sister. She effectively put peasant scum before family, actually. Because Joffrey would one day be her brother-in-law. With out modern eyes we side with her intuitively, but within this feudal world and its values Arya acted like a lunatic. Sansa understands this and that is why she is so pissed at Arya over this.

Sure enough - the punishment there is an extreme thing. But this no nice world. 

LOL, no. Those people are still all ambitious. Renly wants to be king, he will find an excuse for stealing the throne. Just as Stannis did.

That things would be totally different if some people married other people is clear. But that is no argument for anything.

That is also part of it, but they are not fans of the bloody house that stole the throne from Aegon's father and thus also from Aegon.

Do you think anyone cares about Cersei's line?

What muddles relationships is such stories and rumors, not acts. Remember, Stannis could have been wrong - like people were wrong about Naerys and the Dragonknight or, perhaps, about Rhaenyra and Harwin and Rhaenys and her singers, mummers and mimes.

The whole point of this series is that there are no paternity tests and thus no black-and-white. Stannis could be right ... or not. People will never know. We know or believe we know because we have special insight into some characters, but Westeros at large can never know.

And it is actually quite silly to take any sides in the Baratheon succession struggle as Robert himself is a bloody usurper. He is not the universally accepted king of the Seven Kingdoms, so why should the readership care who succeeds him? His is a rotten or questionable kingship, anyway. If we follow Robert's own standards then Joff and Tommen are the rightful kings because they won. Renly got crushed, Balon got crushed, Stannis got crushed, Robb got crushed.

It doesn't matter who their biological father is, just as it didn't really matter that Robert had a Targaryen grandmother. He took the throne because he won some battles and Tywin and Jaime did the dirty work for him.

If Ned or Stannis had found out after Robert's death, perhaps. But once a king is crowned and anointed it would still be treason.

The water is muddied by the fact that Stannis 'knew' long before Robert's death and never told him and Ned himself knew but failed to tell Robert. It is treason to keep something like that from Robert and then presume you know who the throne should pass to. You don't second-guess the wishes of your king or correct his decrees on the basis of knowledge you keep from him.

Ned's decision is clouded by his own desire to not be Hand nor regent but go back home. He wants Stannis to be king because he won't need or want him as his Hand.

Nothing George says in interviews or informally about his characters or story is canon. It is not published nor intended for publication in many cases. Also it is self-interpretation if he tells us how a character would behave in a hypothetical scenario he never wrote. His guess there is no more valid than yours or mine.

1) It’s presumptuous of a husband to expect his wife’s children to be his? Get a paternity test, bud. Those kids aren’t yours. Wild. No. In a marriage, he has every reason to believe that the children being produced will be hissed Cersei said they were his. That’s the point of getting married and it wasn’t even in Cersei’s interests. Her kids are going to all die because of a conflict that she stated deliberately. she could have had Robert’s kids then murdered him later and been much more secure as Tyrion points out in ACOK. But then she wouldn’t have been Cersei if she’d shown that much forethought.

2) No. Stannis knows he’s right and he is right. Read the books.

3) Cersei doesn’t know that Joffrey started it? Because Robert knows and you consider him a moron. Of course she has to know it. And trying to cut off Arya’s hand or have her killed is still monstrous. Morally, Arya was also right for defending the peasant. It’s so interesting. Melara Heatherspoon is a bitch. Mycah is scum. But Cersei and Joffrey definitely aren’t monsters.

4) No. Renly at first just wanted to get rid of the Lannister’s. Stannis wanted to remove Cersei and her bastards. It was about the Lannister’s. If Robert had married Delena Florent and had Edric Storm as a son, the books would have been a lot shorter and significantly more peaceful.

5) Arianne considered marrying Renly. They hate the Lannister’s and Robert by proxy, because he got in bed with them (his biggest mistake). They don’t have any particular love for the Targaryens or hatred for House Baratheon as a whole.

6) The war’s not over yet and by the end of it, Cersei’s kids will all be dead. I wouldn’t be so quick to say that the won.

[Lord Varys]

48 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) It’s presumptuous of a husband to expect his wife’s children to be his? Get a paternity test, bud.

Actually, in civilized countries you can't just get a paternity test because you want to.

48 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Those kids aren’t yours. Wild. No. In a marriage, he has every reason to believe that the children being produced will be hissed Cersei said they were his.

So give me the quote where Cersei told Robert that he actually fathered her children. 

48 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

That’s the point of getting married and it wasn’t even in Cersei’s interests. Her kids are going to all die because of a conflict that she stated deliberately. she could have had Robert’s kids then murdered him later and been much more secure as Tyrion points out in ACOK. But then she wouldn’t have been Cersei if she’d shown that much forethought.

LOL, you are the same moron as Tyrion. The entire point of that thing was to get back at Robert the drunken whoremongering rapist. He would win if she carried his filthy children to term. That Tyrion doesn't get that is quite clear, being a filthy rapist himself. He rapes women, he isn't the one to be raped nor the brooding mare who has to carry the fruit of rape to term.

48 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) No. Stannis knows he’s right and he is right. Read the books.

I guess that's why the asshole is losing the war, lol.

Stannis knows nothing, has no evidence, no proof, nor, to our knowledge, any firsthand testimony like Ned could have claimed.

Although it would have been fun to see this play out as a trial.

Ned: The queen told me about the twincest in confidence.

Cersei: No, I never did that.

Robert: Who should I believe now. One tells this version, the other that.

Robert to Ned: Do you have any other proof for your outlandish claim turning me into a cuckold than this story.

Ned: Well, Your Grace, there is this book about other Baratheons marrying people in the past. And all your bastards look like you, apparently. Oh, and Jon Arryn knew it, too, that's why the queen poisoned him!

Cersei: I did no such thing! That is a filthy lie!

Pycelle: Lord Arryn wasn't poisoned, I can swear to it!

Robert: I know how my bastards look like, I fathered them. I see no problem with my children by my wife looking like her rather than me. Golden hair looks better, anyway, especially in women. (laughs) The queen's mother was a Lannister, too, Lord Tywin's first cousin. So perhaps the double dose of Lannister blood in her veins made the golden hair come out on top in this case. Who can say! Pycelle also tells me that Laenor and Laena Velaryon favored their fair-haired father rather than their black-haired mother whose mother had been a Baratheon. Also ... wouldn't have all Westerosi noble families have Baratheon black hair by now if it always came out on top. I mean, many of us married into many families whose families then married into others and so forth. Yet I don't see my hair in you, Ned, nor in the Tullys, Arryns, hell, not even in my own Stormlords. So what kind of silly case is this. I'm out of here.. Lancel, fetch me my wine skin!

Ned: ...

48 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) Cersei doesn’t know that Joffrey started it?

Nobody cares who started it. Joffrey is a royal prince, Mycah is scum, and Arya a girl. These people are not equals and it is silly to demand that they be treated as if they were equal.

48 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Because Robert knows and you consider him a moron. Of course she has to know it. And trying to cut off Arya’s hand or have her killed is still monstrous.

This is a monstrous world, you know.

48 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Morally, Arya was also right for defending the peasant. It’s so interesting. Melara Heatherspoon is a bitch. Mycah is scum. But Cersei and Joffrey definitely aren’t monsters.

You do realize that I write kind of in character when using such terms...

48 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) No. Renly at first just wanted to get rid of the Lannister’s. Stannis wanted to remove Cersei and her bastards. It was about the Lannister’s.

Renly was an ambitious prick. He wanted his girl to be the new queen. There is no indication whatsoever he would have been happy with another queen who wasn't his girl but, say, a Tully or Stark or Arryn.

And Stannis wanted the fucking throne. He killed his own brother over this. He is a disgusting hypocrite.

48 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

If Robert had married Delena Florent and had Edric Storm as a son, the books would have been a lot shorter and significantly more peaceful.

Not if Robert still had Stannis and Renly for brothers. Ungrateful assholes that they were.

48 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) Arianne considered marrying Renly. They hate the Lannister’s and Robert by proxy, because he got in bed with them (his biggest mistake). They don’t have any particular love for the Targaryens or hatred for House Baratheon as a whole.

Arianne is confused. She fears her father wants to replace her and not avenge her aunt.

[Lee-Sensei]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, in civilized countries you can't just get a paternity test because you want to.

So give me the quote where Cersei told Robert that he actually fathered her children. 

LOL, you are the same moron as Tyrion. The entire point of that thing was to get back at Robert the drunken whoremongering rapist. He would win if she carried his filthy children to term. That Tyrion doesn't get that is quite clear, being a filthy rapist himself. He rapes women, he isn't the one to be raped nor the brooding mare who has to carry the fruit of rape to term.

I guess that's why the asshole is losing the war, lol.

Stannis knows nothing, has no evidence, no proof, nor, to our knowledge, any firsthand testimony like Ned could have claimed.

Although it would have been fun to see this play out as a trial.

Ned: The queen told me about the twincest in confidence.

Cersei: No, I never did that.

Robert: Who should I believe now. One tells this version, the other that.

Robert to Ned: Do you have any other proof for your outlandish claim turning me into a cuckold than this story.

Ned: Well, Your Grace, there is this book about other Baratheons marrying people in the past. And all your bastards look like you, apparently. Oh, and Jon Arryn knew it, too, that's why the queen poisoned him!

Cersei: I did no such thing! That is a filthy lie!

Pycelle: Lord Arryn wasn't poisoned, I can swear to it!

Robert: I know how my bastards look like, I fathered them. I see no problem with my children by my wife looking like her rather than me. Golden hair looks better, anyway, especially in women. (laughs) The queen's mother was a Lannister, too, Lord Tywin's first cousin. So perhaps the double dose of Lannister blood in her veins made the golden hair come out on top in this case. Who can say! Pycelle also tells me that Laenor and Laena Velaryon favored their fair-haired father rather than their black-haired mother whose mother had been a Baratheon. Also ... wouldn't have all Westerosi noble families have Baratheon black hair by now if it always came out on top. I mean, many of us married into many families whose families then married into others and so forth. Yet I don't see my hair in you, Ned, nor in the Tullys, Arryns, hell, not even in my own Stormlords. So what kind of silly case is this. I'm out of here.. Lancel, fetch me my wine skin!

Ned: ...

Nobody cares who started it. Joffrey is a royal prince, Mycah is scum, and Arya a girl. These people are not equals and it is silly to demand that they be treated as if they were equal.

This is a monstrous world, you know.

You do realize that I write kind of in character when using such terms...

Renly was an ambitious prick. He wanted his girl to be the new queen. There is no indication whatsoever he would have been happy with another queen who wasn't his girl but, say, a Tully or Stark or Arryn.

And Stannis wanted the fucking throne. He killed his own brother over this. He is a disgusting hypocrite.

Not if Robert still had Stannis and Renly for brothers. Ungrateful assholes that they were.

Arianne is confused. She fears her father wants to replace her and not avenge her aunt.

Believe whatever you want, man. I'm done. We should just agree to disagree.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

But then she wouldn’t have been Cersei if she’d shown that much forethought.

True dude.

Most of Cersei's problems could be solved if she had thought 2 steps ahead, anticipating reactions. For example, keeping one child by Robert, and after killing Robert, kill the boy for some reason that does not cause outrage, then put Joff on the throne. Ned and Stannis would have a hard time trying to react beforehand if they knew Cersei has bastards but unable to tell which - since she has one child that takes after Robert, maybe the other golden-haired children aren't all bastards from their POV.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

Most of Cersei's problems could be solved if she had thought 2 steps ahead, anticipating reactions.

If she was absolutely determined to get rid of Robert, why didn't she do it earlier?

[SaffronLady]

41 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

If she was absolutely determined to get rid of Robert, why didn't she do it earlier?

I

Dunno

Maybe she lacked strings to pull, knives in the dark.

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

If she was absolutely determined to get rid of Robert, why didn't she do it earlier?

Maybe she wanted to time her murders better? She was planning on murdering Stannis and Renly before Robert and any of his kids that she could get her hands on. Maybe she just didn't want all of the Baratheons to die around the same time.