The Incestuous Nature of the Targaryens is What Doomed Them

[Odej]

9 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Although this is an interesting detail; Joffrey was a minor when he became king, and couldn't rule in his own right until he came of age, which is why Ned, and later Cersei, were appointed as his regents. With that in mind, did he even have the authority to order Ned's execution?

He didn't. He was supposed to do what he was told, to send Ned to the Wall. Cersei complains about it to Tyrion when he arrives in King's Landing, that Janos Slynt and whoever else grabbed Ned after Joffrey's order did so without waiting for her command.

[Lee-Sensei]

43 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Well, you really could make the argument that both Joffrey and Aerys should have been lifted from the burden of their own actions. I mean, I know it's not the right setting, but just because society still expected something from them that they simply did not have the capability to fulfill (one for being a fucked up child, the other for being mentally ill) doesn't really makes them capable of holding responsibility for what they were and did.

And don't get me wrong, I hate Joffrey or Aerys when I read what dey do and did. But I can't blame them, and I don't think we should.

Mostly the established religious boundaries. 

If you're looking for a real answer tho, you should ask yourself why the Tyrells isolate themselves from the Florents. Because they're the ones to do it among the houses of the Reach. It's because they are their competitors for their status and land-based belongings, along with their societal position in the established hereditary hierarchy.

There isn't an established rule saying that marrying your children off to great houses is haram, but there's a reason why you wouldn't want to hand out claims for smiles to people like Tywin Lannister, altough others may not give a single tought about challenging their overlord based on inherited claims: The perfect example would be Robert, who just couldn't care, to a point that, for example, he probably didn't even notice how he 'stole' Stannis' birthright, and gave it to Renly.

Just as there isn't an established rule saying that every marriage is an alliance, nor that it cannot be weaponized against you. From what I can tell based on the text, nobles were doing nobility stuff when the shitstorm hit the fan, and they got caught up in it. Hoster wasn't seeking allies in the sense you mean it, because he had no reasons to. He or his status wasn't endangered, and he didn't need 60000 men to his own for anything for the foreseeable future, nor afterwards. Nobody's planning in fear of the Crown Prince causing a continent-wide civil war for his heart's desire or anything infinitely bigger than that.

Now of course, we can talk of political alliances, which is very much a thing a noble in peacetime should and would pursue. I don't see a reason why he would do it, but it might just be a 'for reasons' cliché.

Either way, we can't come up with generic rules regarding this stuff, because what the (tactically) good thing is can vary from situation to situation. There may come a time when the strategically right thing for a Tyrell is to marry a Florent, and the Florent in charge just happens to not care about centuries old claims, or stops believing in them, etc.

I'm pretty fucking sure marrying into your vassal's house, into another fellow vassal's house, into your liege's house, and even marrying into your own family was sometimes the right decision to do, other times maybe not so much.

George was skilled enough to create a world that more often than not does not feel static.

So we're not blaming an adult and sane man for threatening the king to kill his son and heir (based on assumptions), but we're blaming a clinically insane person for doing insane shit? 

I don't think anyone's being racist here, but the thing Lord Varys, much more extensively than me is thinking about is that there isn't a metric this "keeping the blood pure" preoccupation (which is fairly common, but not the rule for Targaryens) is working with. Viserys III probably tought of himself as "as pure as it gets", if you were to ask him. The proof of that would be the dragon he rides, but lacking dragons, he'd make this assumption based on his looks, I'm assuming. And I think Daemon Targaryen, Jaehaerys I or Aegon I would think the very same thing, regardless of the much more diverse ethnic background they would have in Viserys' situation.

1) Why do the Tyrells isolate themselves from the Florents? Do they? Randyll Tarly's wife is a Florent and according to Stannis, they can call on about 2000 swords. There are always reasons to forge alliances in Westeros.

2) Robert didn't steal Stannis' birthright. He was fully within his rights to keep all of them for himself and "his sons" (luckily he didn't). He chose to share them with his brothers.

3) And yes. I 100% blame Aerys far more than Brandon. Rhaegar too. Lyanna? Maybe. It depends on how things turned out.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No, I disagree.

We both disagree so it cancels out? Like multiplying negative numbers?

7 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Not how it works. There's the implication that Storm's End, and the overlordship of the Stormlands can't remain royal domains/ titles. 

Under hereditary law, it becomes a case of natural succession. And it's never Robert's to an extent that he can do anything to or with it anyway.

That's the assumption we should make, if we were to take a look at what automatically disinherited certain people in lines of succession in real life.

Where is this implication? GRRM has said Robert could have kept SE if he wanted, or given it to someone else:

Quote

Stannis always resented being given Dragonstone while Renly got Storm’s End, and took that as a slight… but it’s not necessarily true that Robert meant it that way. The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother’s status as heir (which he was, until Joff’s birth a few years later). Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm’s End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity.

 

If Robert 'had' to give it to anyone, it was Joffrey/Tommen, not Stannis.

Also, by convention Dragonstone goes to the heir, which Stannis was at the time, so I don't think Robert would then be obliged to give him Storm's End on top of that.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

We both disagree so it cancels out? Like multiplying negative numbers?

Maybe you could disagree to disagree? 

[Odej]

28 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) And yes. I 100% blame Aerys far more than Brandon. Rhaegar too. Lyanna? Maybe. It depends on how things turned out.

Although I agree that the rebellion was more to blame for Aerys and Rhaegar than anyone else, Brandon's attitude is something I find very stupid. His request for an explanation for his sister's apparent abduction is perfectly understandable. But arriving at RedKeep with half a dozen guys threatening to kill the crown prince, son of a wisely crazy king known for burning people alive is not the wisest of ideas. Even though he was absolutely right.

It's something that makes me roll my eyes as much as Ned did telling Cersei he knows about her and Jaime in the first book. Did they have good reasons? Absolutely! Were they smart? No. This is a recurring problem with the Starks, having good intentions but executing them foolishly.

[Daeron the Daring]

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Where is this implication? GRRM has said Robert could have kept SE if he wanted, or given it to someone else:

Wasn't familiar with the quote. But in a medieval society, it is insanely unthinkable to just give away lands and titles these big like it's nothing. But it's not the first time George does this, so it's on me.

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, by convention Dragonstone goes to the heir, which Stannis was at the time, so I don't think Robert would then be obliged to give him Storm's End on top of that.

But Dragonstone isn't a hereditary title.

It's like being a Dauphin in the Kingdom of France. Always goes to the heir, and it doesn't pass trough him.

Viserys abandoned that rule, and Robert too, altough it is much reasonable for Robert to not care too much about a Targaryen custom.

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

We both disagree so it cancels out? Like multiplying negative numbers?

Depends. Do they cancel each other out or not?

Edited September 12, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Lee-Sensei]

23 minutes ago, Odej said:

Although I agree that the rebellion was more to blame for Aerys and Rhaegar than anyone else, Brandon's attitude is something I find very stupid. His request for an explanation for his sister's apparent abduction is perfectly understandable. But arriving at RedKeep with half a dozen guys threatening to kill the crown prince, son of a wisely crazy king known for burning people alive is not the wisest of ideas. Even though he was absolutely right.

It's something that makes me roll my eyes as much as Ned did telling Cersei he knows about her and Jaime in the first book. Did they have good reasons? Absolutely! Were they smart? No. This is a recurring problem with the Starks, having good intentions but executing them foolishly.

I agree that he was stupid. I just think that his anger was justified.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

You're just wrong on this one though. Objectively wrong.

How well Stannis himself established 'an alliance' with House Florent through marriage you see when Lord Alester sides with fucking Renly.

11 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Or... more likely, Hoster wanted to marry his children to other Great Houses, because the Riverlands are hard to defend and having strong allies would have made his kingdom more secure? That seems much more likely to me.

What??? The Seven Kingdoms are a united Realm for 300 years! No outside enemy is threatening the Riverlands. Hoster doesn't need Tywin or Rickard as his son-in-law to ensure the Westermen or Northmen don't invade his lands! He is not a king!

For a River King this might have been a smart move but all Hoster Tully, Lord of Riverrun, gained from that was prestige.

11 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

The Starks aren't a backwater House as I see it. Neither are most of the families in the North. And I'm pretty sure that their family is considered more prestigious than the Tullys even though I like the Tullys. They were kings for thousands of years. The Tullys were never kings.

Rickard considered himself 'backwater' - which is why he had 'southron ambitions' according to Barbrey Dustin.

11 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Where did I say that having good relations between these Houses was unimportant? Yes. Ned, Jon and Robert being friends was important, but marriages are to forge alliances.

You can forge an alliance with a marriage. But in a peaceful Realm you don't need 'political alliances' so much as good trade relations and good relations and friendships over all. Rickard, Hoster, and Robert had no reason for a political alliance but being closer together as the noble elite of the Realm was fine.

11 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

If your 14 year old sister was kidnapped by a 23 year old man (as Brandon saw it), what would you think?

Why should Brandon think she was kidnapped?

11 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

You still haven't answered why every other House marries their vassals instead of their sisters. Cersei is a unique case. Not having Robert's kids wasn't even in her interests and all of her children are going to die for it. Just like in the show. Alicent on the other hand, wasn't trying to replace the Targaryens with the Hightowers. She wanted her Targaryen son to inherit. That's not really the same thing.

For the last time: Men marrying outsider women isn't that big of a problem. But throwing your own daughters and sisters at ambitious and powerful men is potentially risky because those people could then get ideas that they could or should be king.

Robert and Viserys I are partially to blame for being eaten alive by their in-laws - they gave the relations of their wives powerful positions at court.

11 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Nah. Joffrey was a monster and if he'd been a better person, they probably wouldn't have killed him. I have sympathy for Joffrey. Having Cersei as a mother must have been hard, but he was cutting open pregnant cats as a toddler, which suggests that he was always broken to some extent. Possibly in part because of Jaime and Cersei's incest.

Now we are speculating. I imagine Gregor, his cronies, Ramsay, Euron, Roose, Vargo Hoat, the Bloody Mummers, Littlefinger, Darkstar, etc. are also all 'broken' because of some incest?

Joff certainly had issues and could have become a dangerous person ... but during the series he is just a kid who torments the daughter of a traitor. The cat incident is quite severe, but Joff never did something like that to a person.

And what is my point: He never harmed or hurt the poisonous Tyrells. They killed him! And then they pinned it on Sansa and Tyrion!

11 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

There are fair criticisms of Renly, but that's not it. Renly gets along with almost everyone. Even Jaime liked him iirc. Where as Cersei and Joffrey are almost universally hated. The best thing that people can say about them is that they're physically attractive. If Robert had married Queen Delena Florent and had Prince Edric Baratheon as his heir I'm certain that Renly would have got along wtih them. As you said, he had a gift for making friends, but Cersei isn't one of them. This isn't a Renly issue. This is a Cersei and Joffrey issue.

Sorry, no. Renly also has a duty to get along with his nephew and sister-in-law. It is not just their job to do that. Especially not since they are the queen and the future king not the king's baby brother. They outrank Renly, so they are entitled to arrogance and aloofness (to a point at least).

11 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Where am I getting that they're lunatics? From Cersei murdering her best friend as a child, having sex (implied) with her brother while her mother was still alive (she wasn't even 10) and trying to twist off Tyrion's penis in his crib as a baby. For Joffrey from cutting open pregnant cats. Why do you think they weren't mad?

That makes Cersei cruel and insidious and horny, but not a lunatic. Joff certainly has a sadist streak, to be sure, but that doesn't make him a lunatic, either.

Cersei and Jaime love each other as twin siblings and lovers, by the way. You might not agree that this is a healthy relationship, but being in love doesn't mean you are mad.

[Lee-Sensei]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How well Stannis himself established 'an alliance' with House Florent through marriage you see when Lord Alester sides with fucking Renly.

What??? The Seven Kingdoms are a united Realm for 300 years! No outside enemy is threatening the Riverlands. Hoster doesn't need Tywin or Rickard as his son-in-law to ensure the Westermen or Northmen don't invade his lands! He is not a king!

For a River King this might have been a smart move but all Hoster Tully, Lord of Riverrun, gained from that was prestige.

Rickard considered himself 'backwater' - which is why he had 'southron ambitions' according to Barbrey Dustin.

You can forge an alliance with a marriage. But in a peaceful Realm you don't need 'political alliances' so much as good trade relations and good relations and friendships over all. Rickard, Hoster, and Robert had no reason for a political alliance but being closer together as the noble elite of the Realm was fine.

Why should Brandon think she was kidnapped?

For the last time: Men marrying outsider women isn't that big of a problem. But throwing your own daughters and sisters at ambitious and powerful men is potentially risky because those people could then get ideas that they could or should be king.

Robert and Viserys I are partially to blame for being eaten alive by their in-laws - they gave the relations of their wives powerful positions at court.

Now we are speculating. I imagine Gregor, his cronies, Ramsay, Euron, Roose, Vargo Hoat, the Bloody Mummers, Littlefinger, Darkstar, etc. are also all 'broken' because of some incest?

Joff certainly had issues and could have become a dangerous person ... but during the series he is just a kid who torments the daughter of a traitor. The cat incident is quite severe, but Joff never did something like that to a person.

And what is my point: He never harmed or hurt the poisonous Tyrells. They killed him! And then they pinned it on Sansa and Tyrion!

Sorry, no. Renly also has a duty to get along with his nephew and sister-in-law. It is not just their job to do that. Especially not since they are the queen and the future king not the king's baby brother. They outrank Renly, so they are entitled to arrogance and aloofness (to a point at least).

That makes Cersei cruel and insidious and horny, but not a lunatic. Joff certainly has a sadist streak, to be sure, but that doesn't make him a lunatic, either.

Cersei and Jaime love each other as twin siblings and lovers, by the way. You might not agree that this is a healthy relationship, but being in love doesn't mean you are mad.

If you think that Marriages aren't at all about forming alliances in asoiaf, than we're just not reading the same story. I will point out how weird it is to criticize me for mentioning the STAB alliance and then talk about southron ambitions. Incest leading to madness sometimes is just how the story is written. If you take issue with that, go talk to George about it. Joffrey was already a dangerous person. Joffrey certainly shouldn't. He's a bastard. And Renly was the brother of the king. He's under no real obligation to get along with them. Not while Robert was alive. Joffrey and Cersei are the ones that struggle to form relationships. Not Renly. It was probably because they're toxic scumbags.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

If you think that Marriages aren't at all about forming alliances in asoiaf, than we're just not reading the same story.

Marriages can form alliances. Or not. They are a way to get brides for your sons and a means to get rid of daughters. Not every marriages forms an alliance and there was just no marriage alliance between any of the rebel houses at the time the Rebellion began.

4 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I will point out how weird it is to criticize me for mentioning the STAB alliance and then talk about southron ambitions.

Most people are imagining things when talking the 'southron ambitions'. Rickard had had enough of constantly marrying his own bannermen. He wanted to connect with powerful southron houses to gain more prestige and influence.

4 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Incest leading to madness sometimes is just how the story is written. If you take issue with that, go talk to George about it.

Nope, it isn't. There is no indication that incest leads to madness or sadism as there are more sadist and insane people in the story who don't have an incestuous background ... and there are many great or normal incestuous people in the story, not just historically but also with Gilly, Tommen, and Myrcella.

4 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Joffrey was already a dangerous person. Joffrey certainly shouldn't. He's a bastard.

What?! Joff is the acknowledged son of Robert Baratheon. He is his heir, no matter who his progenitor is, until such a time as Robert says something else. Are you really blaming the boy for the manner of his conception?!

4 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

And Renly was the brother of the king. He's under no real obligation to get along with them. Not while Robert was alive. Joffrey and Cersei are the ones that struggle to form relationships. Not Renly. It was probably because they're toxic scumbags.

Renly was an asshole, too. A treasonous scumbag who betrayed his eldest brother's memory, his wife, and his nephews and niece for personal gain. Not to mention his other brother and niece, too. 

[Lee-Sensei]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Marriages can form alliances. Or not. They are a way to get brides for your sons and a means to get rid of daughters. Not every marriages forms an alliance and there was just no marriage alliance between any of the rebel houses at the time the Rebellion began.

Most people are imagining things when talking the 'southron ambitions'. Rickard had had enough of constantly marrying his own bannermen. He wanted to connect with powerful southron houses to gain more prestige and influence.

Nope, it isn't. There is no indication that incest leads to madness or sadism as there are more sadist and insane people in the story who don't have an incestuous background ... and there are many great or normal incestuous people in the story, not just historically but also with Gilly, Tommen, and Myrcella.

What?! Joff is the acknowledged son of Robert Baratheon. He is his heir, no matter who his progenitor is, until such a time as Robert says something else. Are you really blaming the boy for the manner of his conception?!

Renly was an asshole, too. A treasonous scumbag who betrayed his eldest brother's memory, his wife, and his nephews and niece for personal gain. Not to mention his other brother and niece, too. 

Like I said, if you think that marriages aren't about forming alliances, than you and I are just reading different books.

You believe it was about prestige. I've seen no evidence of that and there are probably very few houses that were more prestigious than House Stark.

Take the incest one up with George.

I'm saying that Joffrey is now a well known bastard.

Renly was nowhere near as bad as Cersei and Joffrey. Compared to those two, he was a saint. Cersei was also planning on murdering Cersei and Robert's marriage was a farce anyways. They hated each other. That was well known and even beyond that, they didn't produce any children. Cersei's bastards aren't his nephews either.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Like I said, if you think that marriages aren't about forming alliances, than you and I are just reading different books.

You don't seem to understand the issue.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

You believe it was about prestige. I've seen no evidence of that and there are probably very few houses that were more prestigious than House Stark.

So Lord Rickard had no reason for 'southron ambitions' and there was no need for him to try to intermarry more frequently with great southern houses?

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Take the incest one up with George.

I don't have. George doesn't portray incest as something leading to the birth of 'monsters'.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I'm saying that Joffrey is now a well known bastard.

He isn't. Some evil uncle who everybody hates slandered him as a bastard. That's it.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Renly was nowhere near as bad as Cersei and Joffrey. Compared to those two, he was a saint. Cersei was also planning on murdering Cersei and Robert's marriage was a farce anyways. They hated each other. That was well known and even beyond that, they didn't produce any children. Cersei's bastards aren't his nephews either.

What kind of person are you, seriously? So innocent children aren't your nephews if your sister-in-law perhaps slept around? Would you call your own nephew 'bastard' if that was the case in your family? Are you aware of the fact that family is not only biological?

Renly had no clue that Cersei's children weren't fathered by Robert ... but even if he did they would still be his legal nephews and niece and that entitles them to being treated as such. That is also why Stannis is a despicable asshole. He was convinced that they were Jaime's children, never said anything to Robert, and then tried to steal the inheritance of his nephews and niece when the opportunity presented itself.

How a real family acts even in this shitty world we see with Corlys Velaryon not giving a damn that his grandsons weren't, perhaps, fathered by his son Laenor.

Renly was also an asshole who tried to pimp out Margaery to supplant Cersei as queen - a plot that was asshole behavior with the potential throw the Realm into a civil war. Because Tywin and Jaime and Cersei and perhaps even Joffrey would have serious issue with this 'replacement plan'.

Sure enough - on paper it is a nice idea to rid the court of Cersei and her kin ... but the Lannisters are the richest house in the Realm and the Crown is very much indebted to them. It would have been a huge mess to try that.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Lord Varys

[Daeron the Daring]

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei's bastards aren't his nephews either.

Which, I guess absolves him of the societal expectiations of being a nice and good person to anyone.

Is that how you behave with your 'alleged' cousins and relatives?

They gotta prove to you the relation first, to expect anything humane from you?

Allow me to go ahead and assume that's not the case.

[Alester Florent]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What??? The Seven Kingdoms are a united Realm for 300 years! No outside enemy is threatening the Riverlands. Hoster doesn't need Tywin or Rickard as his son-in-law to ensure the Westermen or Northmen don't invade his lands! He is not a king!

But civil wars do happen and the Riverlands are vulnerable when they do. In any case, having Stark support on his side when inter-regional matters are discussed at King's Landing is useful: a political, rather than military, alliance. He may also be a little intimidated by Tywin's reputation and what happened to the Reynes and Tarbecks. He wants to either get on Tywin's good side (hence the Jaime/Lysa proposal) or gain allies in case Tywin takes against him: preferably both. And while it's probably a bit early for any anti-Aerys muttering to be doing the rounds seriously (the betrothal is a couple of years before Duskendale, iirc) he may still see a benefit in hedging against future instability by acquiring powerful allies just in case. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Why should Brandon think she was kidnapped?

I’ve actually given this a little thought recently., given that people have pointed out there were likely witnesses to Lyanna’s “abduction” and have speculated on why Rickard went so apparently willingly. I think I have a sequence of events that makes sense of the various actions people take, without (to my knowledge) contradicting anything we know about the sequence of events. 

Lyanna is out riding with a small escort. Rhaegar intercepts her party with his own escort, probably including member(s) of the Kingsguard. Rhaegar asks Lyanna to come with him. There’s a momentarily awkward moment in which Lyanna’s escort are not sure whether they’re being threatened or not. Lyanna says ok and rides off with Rhaegar.

Lyanna’s escort ride back where they came from and, en route, they start to think about what people are going to ask them and why they let the lady under their protection ride off on her own with some guy, and become concerned that maybe they didn’t cover themselves in glory. They discuss what happened between themselves. By the time they reach their destination, they have convinced themselves and each other that the situation was in fact much more threatening than it was, that Rhaegar intended to kill them to seize Lyanna, and that she gave herself up to spare bloodshed.

This is the version of events that is told to the first friendly lord/knight/castellan/innkeeper they encounter. It is further embellished in the retelling. It finds its way to Brandon's ear, and he hears that his sister was violently abducted by the prince. In any case, even if Lyanna went willingly, that is – given Westerosi mores with regard to marriage - still an insult to the Starks that he considers can’t be left unchallenged. He immediately rides off to King’s Landing to confront Rhaegar or if not perhaps seek intervention from the king. 

After a fairly long and hard ride and probably not sleeping all that well due to anxiety and worrying about how his sister is being treated, a tired and emotional Brandon rides into the Red Keep shouting for Rhaegar to come out and answer to him for his actions. He may or may not directly threaten Rhaegar’s life and tell him to come out and die, or this might again be the addition of imaginative witnesses, in this case arresting officers who seize him and his party, realise they're going to have to explain to someone why they've just arrested the heirs to two lord paramountcies, and are looking to cover their backsides. 

Aerys sends off to Rickard telling him Brandon and his companions have been arrested and he needs to come south to deal with it. Rickard himself has an incomplete picture of events, but considers the whole thing is probably being blown out of proportion and he can sort it out. Unaware that he himself is effectively a traitor in the king’s eyes, he goes south with a small escort, prioritising speed of travel. On arrival at King’s Landing, he’s met at the gates by one of Aerys’s circle, perhaps the Hand or the Master of Laws, who tells him the full circumstances of Brandon’s arrest and that it’s Aerys’s intention to try both him and Brandon as traitors. Rickard realises it’s too late for him to run and summon more help, so says if he’s on trial for his life he’ll demand trial by combat. The courtier returns to the Red Keep and reports Rickard’s intentions. Aerys takes this as an admission of guilt and thinks up his “fire is my champion” scheme. When Rickard arrives shortly thereafter now armed for the trial by combat, Aerys is geared up to have him grabbed and subjected to the “trial by fire”.

Shortly afterwards, Aerys realises that he’s screwed up: the new lord of Winterfell isn’t going to be happy once he learns what’s happened to his father and brother, and Aerys has just executed all his potential hostages (except Lyanna, but she and Rhaegar are still MIA).. He’s also aware of what Brandon did when he learned about Lyanna’s absconding with Rhaegar and is worried Robert might react similarly, except this time pausing to recruit the Stormlords first. Fortunately, neither Ned nor Robert is at home and in a position to call their banners. He orders Jon Arryn to nip their potential uprising in the bud by seizing and executing them.

Ned and Robert, hanging out at the Eyrie, hear about all of this in a disjointed and confusing manner. Jon Arryn initially takes the view that Lyanna’s supposed abduction is a rumour and needs to be investigated, talking Robert out of a precipitate, Brandon-esque response. Then news dribbles in of Brandon’s arrest: eventually, Jon gets news of the executions/judicial murders of Rickard, Brandon and Elbert, and that Aerys has called for the heads of Ned and Robert, possibly all at the same time or separated only by a day or two. There's no longer any room for doubt: he is angry and upset himself about Elbert's death, he accepts that Aerys has lost the plot, and recognises that his choice is limited to “kill Ned and Bob” or “raise his banners” because if he lets them go Aerys will undoubtedly condemn him as a traitor too. Unwilling to do the former, he does the latter.

The news from King’s Landing about Rickard and Brandon (and Elbert) also puts the still-unresolved question of what happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna, in the absence of both the parties themselves and any alternative explanation doing the rounds, in the worst possible light. There’s no longer any reason for Robert not to assume the worst, and there’s no benefit in Ned or Jon trying to persuade him otherwise because a fired-up Robert is now much more useful than one moping about how his girlfriend has run off with another guy.

Cue rebellion.

This version of events may be a little too generous to Aerys and Brandon, but I think it is entirely plausible and doesn’t require anyone to be holding the idiot ball at any given moment beyond what could be reasonably expected at the time given the circumstances (and Aerys’s known mental state).

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

But civil wars do happen and the Riverlands are vulnerable when they do. In any case, having Stark support on his side when inter-regional matters are discussed at King's Landing is useful: a political, rather than military, alliance. He may also be a little intimidated by Tywin's reputation and what happened to the Reynes and Tarbecks. He wants to either get on Tywin's good side (hence the Jaime/Lysa proposal) or gain allies in case Tywin takes against him: preferably both. And while it's probably a bit early for any anti-Aerys muttering to be doing the rounds seriously (the betrothal is a couple of years before Duskendale, iirc) he may still see a benefit in hedging against future instability by acquiring powerful allies just in case. 

Succession wars do happen but they are a rare thing indeed. And if you are a part of that depends on whether you or your lords declare for a side. If you stay neutral like the Tyrells did during the Dance you might get through the thing unscathed.

The notion that Hoster wanted great lords/heirs for his girls because he needed a political alliance to safeguard his domains is not indicated by the text ... nor is it very likely in context. Hoster would have fought with Tywin and Brynden, etc. on the Stepstones. The consideration of Jaime-Lysa may very well be something that came from that. Ditto, actually, with Cat-Brandon if Rickard was on the Stepstones, too. Which he may have been.

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I’ve actually given this a little thought recently., given that people have pointed out there were likely witnesses to Lyanna’s “abduction” and have speculated on why Rickard went so apparently willingly. I think I have a sequence of events that makes sense of the various actions people take, without (to my knowledge) contradicting anything we know about the sequence of events.

I think the key for the thing there is in TWoIaF and the fact that Yandel tells us there were two pre-Dance-like factions at court prior to and after Harrenhal - Aerys' party and Rhaegar's party.

Aerys and his people completely missed the fact that Robert and Brandon were angry over the Lyanna crowning thing - they thought it was some kind of obscure symbol of Stark-Rhaegar alliance.

So, obviously, Aerys would have thought Rhaegar taking Lyanna was the first step in a coordinated rebellion of Rhaegar and the Starks against him. When Brandon showed up he wouldn't have believed anything he said, demanding he, Brandon, tell Aerys everything about their rebellion and especially where Rhaegar was and what he was going to do.

And it would have been the same with Rickard. In fact, Rickard's own 'trial' only makes sense if Aerys viewed him as a traitor and rebel already. He hadn't done anything wrong at all.

Also, Aerys would only target Ned and Robert afterwards if he thought they were all part of Rhaegar's conspiracy because quite obviously it is overkill to target the new Lord of Winterfell as well as the completely unrelated Lord of Storm's End over a minor issue such as Brandon's threat.

That Aerys would have thought Rhaegar was the problem also fits well with the bumbling early response to Robert's Rebellion - Merryweather charging Stormlords with arresting Robert, etc. This makes sense if the royal court was still looking for Rhaegar thinking he was the one mounting a huge army in the North or the Reach or Dorne or wherever they thought he and Lyanna might be. Robert was just viewed as a side threat, as one of Rhaegar's rebel allies, not the main or only threat.

By the time Aerys makes Connington his new Hand they would have understood what was actually going on. But not before, I think.

The details of 'the abduction' is something we have to learn eventually ... but it seems clear to me that Brandon's own temper and character are what causes him to do what he does. There is no indication he and Lya were ever close nor is there any indication that Brandon was a particularly pleasant or nice person. His issue with Rhaegar courting Lyanna are his own, he has little to no justification for that.

Also, of course, we cannot rule that Brandon actually knew Lya's feelings for Rhaegar and what happened between them at Harrenhal. He may have had his petty reasons of disapproving of this.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 9/13/2023 at 12:49 AM, Lord Varys said:

You don't seem to understand the issue.

So Lord Rickard had no reason for 'southron ambitions' and there was no need for him to try to intermarry more frequently with great southern houses?

I don't have. George doesn't portray incest as something leading to the birth of 'monsters'.

He isn't. Some evil uncle who everybody hates slandered him as a bastard. That's it.

What kind of person are you, seriously? So innocent children aren't your nephews if your sister-in-law perhaps slept around? Would you call your own nephew 'bastard' if that was the case in your family? Are you aware of the fact that family is not only biological?

Renly had no clue that Cersei's children weren't fathered by Robert ... but even if he did they would still be his legal nephews and niece and that entitles them to being treated as such. That is also why Stannis is a despicable asshole. He was convinced that they were Jaime's children, never said anything to Robert, and then tried to steal the inheritance of his nephews and niece when the opportunity presented itself.

How a real family acts even in this shitty world we see with Corlys Velaryon not giving a damn that his grandsons weren't, perhaps, fathered by his son Laenor.

Renly was also an asshole who tried to pimp out Margaery to supplant Cersei as queen - a plot that was asshole behavior with the potential throw the Realm into a civil war. Because Tywin and Jaime and Cersei and perhaps even Joffrey would have serious issue with this 'replacement plan'.

Sure enough - on paper it is a nice idea to rid the court of Cersei and her kin ... but the Lannisters are the richest house in the Realm and the Crown is very much indebted to them. It would have been a huge mess to try that.

1) That's my line.

2) There was. To strengthen his house through alliances.

3) You do. I've already provided the quote.

4) Yes. 100%. If you're sister-in-law cheated on your brother and had kids with someone else (her brother), those aren't your relatives. Obviously. And there's no evidence that he treated them poorly. And no. Stannis wasn't trying to steal the inheritance of his "nephews and neice". They had no claim. The Lannsiters were trying to steal from his actual family.

5) Lmao. No. That's not how a real family acts. Almost no person in the real world would act like that and it's absolutely deranged to think that they should.

6) Good. The biggest mistake Robert and Jon Arryn ever made was making Cersei a queen. She should have been kept far away from the throne. Margaery is infinitely preferable. Not just because she's smarter, but because she seems to have a much stronger moral core.

7) According to the envoy from the Iron Bank, Robert's government regularly paid their debts. That's why they were always happy to lend him money. And once the incest is revealed, the debt wouldn't even be an issue.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 9/13/2023 at 3:36 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

Which, I guess absolves him of the societal expectiations of being a nice and good person to anyone.

Is that how you behave with your 'alleged' cousins and relatives?

They gotta prove to you the relation first, to expect anything humane from you?

Allow me to go ahead and assume that's not the case.

Is there any evidence that he wasn't nice to them, even though it's almost certain that Cersei wasn't nice to Renly.

Renly owes them nothing. Cersei's kids aren't his relatives and Cersei herself is a sister-in-law in a marriage between two people that hate each other. She was also planning on having him and Stannis murdered along with Robert and his real children. No. Renly didn't owe her anything.

Do you have evidence of Renly treating them poorly?

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) That's my line.

2) There was. To strengthen his house through alliances.

If we take that as a given, the Rickard was weak(er) before such marriage alliances and marrying his son to a Tully and his daughter to the Lord of Storm's End increased his prestige. Which is what I'm saying.

The guy didn't need 'alliances'. Nobody did, as it was a united Realm and they were all friends on paper. Not enemies.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) You do. I've already provided the quote.

You did not such thing.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) Yes. 100%. If you're sister-in-law cheated on your brother and had kids with someone else (her brother), those aren't your relatives. Obviously. And there's no evidence that he treated them poorly. And no. Stannis wasn't trying to steal the inheritance of his "nephews and neice". They had no claim. The Lannsiters were trying to steal from his actual family.

LOL, sorry, but that is quite despicable. There are stepchildren, adopted children, and in-laws in this world as well as in ours. They are all family even if there is no blood relation there. You have to be warped and twisted to only care about 'blood relations'.

Cersei's children are Robert's because they were born in wedlock and he recognized them as such. Stannis has no right to not treat them as his trueborn nephews and niece as he cannot have any proof in this world that they are not. And Renly is worse as 'not getting along with your sister-in-law' is no justification for wanting to be king.

The Lannisters as a house only defend the rights of King Joffrey and his siblings. Tyrion and Tywin don't know that Cersei's children aren't Robert's, either. And even when they suspecting they never get any proof, either. To them it matters that they are their relations.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) Lmao. No. That's not how a real family acts. Almost no person in the real world would act like that and it's absolutely deranged to think that they should.

That is just complete nonsense. There are families where people go to sperm donor to have children, where people have open marriages and raise children from different fathers or mothers. Not to mention the simple stepchildren thing.

Good and proper uncles would have ignored the rumors about Cersei and Jaime - or would never have come up with weird shit like that (what deranged mind actually imagines that his sister-in-law sleeps with her twin brother?!) - because they would not want to harm or hurt their nephews and niece.

But you and Stannis are obviously not capable of decent behavior.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

6) Good. The biggest mistake Robert and Jon Arryn ever made was making Cersei a queen. She should have been kept far away from the throne. Margaery is infinitely preferable. Not just because she's smarter, but because she seems to have a much stronger moral core.

The biggest mistake Robert ever made was not to respect Cersei as his wife and queen and to repeatedly rape her. Margaery has no moral core at all. She participated in the murder of her husband at their wedding. She is rotten to the core. She is more outwardly nice, more controlled than Cersei ... but that is obviously part of her act.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

7) According to the envoy from the Iron Bank, Robert's government regularly paid their debts. That's why they were always happy to lend him money. And once the incest is revealed, the debt wouldn't even be an issue.

LOL, the debt to Casterly Rock wouldn't go away just because Robert had or wanted a new queen. How fucked up the treasury was you see simply from the fact that Cersei has to get rid of the debt to the Faith and still can't build new ships and continue to pay the Iron Bank. The notion that she insisted at the same time that the government she was running paid back herself as Lady of Casterly Rock is ridiculous.

[Alester Florent]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Good and proper uncles would have ignored the rumors about Cersei and Jaime - or would never have come up with weird shit like that (what deranged mind actually imagines that his sister-in-law sleeps with her twin brother?!) - because they would not want to harm or hurt their nephews and niece.

But you and Stannis are obviously not capable of decent behavior.

Uhhh, so Stannis finds out that his sister-in-law, the queen, has been having a longstanding affair with her twin brother, cuckolding the king, passing off the incest bastards as the true heirs to the throne, and somehow this is Stannis's fault?

Are you taking the mickey, or has your account been hijacked by that guy who posts defences of Cersei based on TVTropes? Because that's deranged.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Uhhh, so Stannis finds out that his sister-in-law, the queen, has been having a longstanding affair with her twin brother, cuckolding the king, passing off the incest bastards as the true heirs to the throne, and somehow this is Stannis's fault?

Are you taking the mickey, or has your account been hijacked by that guy who posts defences of Cersei based on TVTropes? Because that's deranged.

Stannis never found anything out. He has no proof and there is actually no indication the guy is led by anything other than his repressed ambition and jealousy of Robert's success and charisma.

His 'proof' is some book and the looks of some bastard nephews. That is nothing.

Is there any indication he heard Jaime or Cersei admitting anything? Like we have for Ned? No, there isn't.

I'm not sure if it intention or bad writing but the result of the way things are written is that the readers put their knowledge from Ned's and Jaime's and Cersei's POV chapters into Stannis' head when the guy has no access to that information. He has only his suspicions - and while we know he is right there he can't know that. He could be wrong especially because he has so far given us no reason why we should believe his little story. But the asshole still crowns himself and starts a war which can only conclude with the death of his two nephews and one niece, the deaths of his sister-in-law and the deaths of her father and her two brothers if Stannis was to win. Which he thankfully never will.

You can see how silly Stannis' case is by him actually openly declaring that Jaime is the father of the children. How can he know that for a fact? Jaime is Cersei's twin brother and incest is a vile sin. What makes him think that those twin siblings would sleep with each other and conceive three children to pass for Robert's? True enough - the children all look like Jaime ... but that could be because he and Cersei look alike. They actually look like both Jaime and Cersei.

Okay, Robert and Cersei didn't get along well, so perhaps Cersei did entertain a lover. But how outlandish is the idea that her lover would be her own twin brother?

That is something only a man with a twisted and deranged mind would come up with in that society ... or one who actually oversaw or overhead anything. But so far there is no indication that Stannis did overhear or oversee something. Therefore we can only blame his repressed ambition for his belief in that story/idea, not any non-existing evidence or proof. Stannis rebels against King Joffrey because he wants to believe he himself is 'the rightful king' but he cannot prove that he is. He might not even know for a fact that he is. Because even if he oversaw or overheard something Jaime or Cersei would have to have said openly and clearly that all three of Cersei's children were Jaime's or else he would have nothing. And how likely is it that they would say this clearly in a private conversation? Cersei having an affair with Jaime doesn't equal Jaime being the father of any of Cersei's children much less him being the father of all three of them.

It is also quite silly to assume that anyone at court but Jaime and Cersei and, perhaps, Varys actually knew about the twincest. It is an outlandish scenario and they were very careful and they happen to be twins who like each other very well ... so the last thing anyone would think is that they have sex or a romantic couple even if they are very affectionate in public. Robert himself never suspected anything, after all.

People are kind of confused about this because by the time the story starts the twincest story is already out to a point. Stannis told Jon and Jon started and investigation and suddenly died while doing that. Cersei and Jaime got spooked and careful court observers like Littlefinger and Pycelle noticed that. Not to mention that Littlefinger may have been told about Jon's investigation by Lysa, connecting the dots then and there when he decided that this would give Lysa the smokescreen to poison Jon herself.