The Incestuous Nature of the Targaryens is What Doomed Them

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

She was planning on murdering Stannis and Renly before Robert and any of his kids that she could get her hands on.

Do you have the quotes on this one, because I'm completely blanking on it.

[Craving Peaches]

17 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Do you have the quotes on this one, because I'm completely blanking on it.

Quote

Jon Arryn put Robert Baratheon in her bed, and before he died he'd begun sniffing about her and Jaime as well. Eddard Stark took up right where Arryn had left off; his meddling had forced her to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers. 

Cersei I, AFfC.

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

True dude.

Most of Cersei's problems could be solved if she had thought 2 steps ahead, anticipating reactions. For example, keeping one child by Robert, and after killing Robert, kill the boy for some reason that does not cause outrage, then put Joff on the throne. Ned and Stannis would have a hard time trying to react beforehand if they knew Cersei has bastards but unable to tell which - since she has one child that takes after Robert, maybe the other golden-haired children aren't all bastards from their POV.

That is just stupid. You don't get why Cersei didn't want to carry any of Robert's brats to term, do you? Because he raped her. Because he slept around. Because he humiliated her. Her victory as his wife is that he didn't get any children from her. And she won. Her fight wasn't with Robert's brothers or the Baratheon dynasty - it was with the fat asshead drunkard rapist. And she won that fight completely.

Also - she mastered the twincest. She won that battle, too. It didn't ruin her. Tommen is still king. And if he falls it is most likely not going to be because of twincest shit but because of Aegon's invasion.

12 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

If she was absolutely determined to get rid of Robert, why didn't she do it earlier?

She wasn't. She is not stupid. She herself says she wanted to deal with Robert's brothers first. Also, of course, it would be much better if Joff was of age when he became king. The chances that Stannis or Renly would try anything then is also very small. Joff was an impressive, handsome specimen. If he was safely married to a lady from a great house by then resistance to his rise to the throne would be effectively non-existent.

10 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Maybe she wanted to time her murders better? She was planning on murdering Stannis and Renly before Robert and any of his kids that she could get her hands on. Maybe she just didn't want all of the Baratheons to die around the same time.

That is just nonsense. There is no indication Cersei was ever on a crusade to murder all of Robert's filthy bastards nor is it confirmed she intended to murder Stannis or Renly. But even if she wanted to do the latter - their behavior shows she wouldn't have been wrong to off those ingrates, especially Renly.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Do you have the quotes on this one, because I'm completely blanking on it.

Considering it is a stretch to actually say Robert was murdered I'm kind of wondering how Cersei wanted to murder Stannis. Perhaps by way of putting too much salt into his salted water.

[Lee-Sensei]

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is just stupid. You don't get why Cersei didn't want to carry any of Robert's brats to term, do you? Because he raped her. Because he slept around. Because he humiliated her. Her victory as his wife is that he didn't get any children from her. And she won. Her fight wasn't with Robert's brothers or the Baratheon dynasty - it was with the fat asshead drunkard rapist. And she won that fight completely.

Also - she mastered the twincest. She won that battle, too. It didn't ruin her. Tommen is still king. And if he falls it is most likely not going to be because of twincest shit but because of Aegon's invasion.

She wasn't. She is not stupid. She herself says she wanted to deal with Robert's brothers first. Also, of course, it would be much better if Joff was of age when he became king. The chances that Stannis or Renly would try anything then is also very small. Joff was an impressive, handsome specimen. If he was safely married to a lady from a great house by then resistance to his rise to the throne would be effectively non-existent.

That is just nonsense. There is no indication Cersei was ever on a crusade to murder all of Robert's filthy bastards nor is it confirmed she intended to murder Stannis or Renly. But even if she wanted to do the latter - their behavior shows she wouldn't have been wrong to off those ingrates, especially Renly.

Lmao. Melara Heatherspoon was a bitch (not the 10 year old murderer). Mycah was peasant scum (not the woman that blamed Lollys for her rape and said septas were "wrinkled cunts" that were "praying for good rapings"). Robert's bastards are filthy (not the brother fucker). Stannis and Renly were ungrateful (not Cersei who spat in Ned's face when he tried to help save her bastards). What did Stannis and Renly have to be grateful for? When did Cersei ever do anything for them?

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is just stupid. You don't get why Cersei didn't want to carry any of Robert's brats to term, do you? Because he raped her. Because he slept around. Because he humiliated her. Her victory as his wife is that he didn't get any children from her. And she won. Her fight wasn't with Robert's brothers or the Baratheon dynasty - it was with the fat asshead drunkard rapist. And she won that fight completely.

Also - she mastered the twincest. She won that battle, too. It didn't ruin her. Tommen is still king. And if he falls it is most likely not going to be because of twincest shit but because of Aegon's invasion.

Yes yes yes, how tragic her personal story is! Let's ignore all the pain and suffering happening across Westeros for another round of Cersei the Victorious. Curtain 1, The Marital Rapist.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication Cersei was ever on a crusade to murder all of Robert's filthy bastards

Yes there is since we see Cersei try to kill any she can get her hands on. She kills Barra, she kills the twins at Casterly Rock, she tries to kill Gendry and she threatens to kill Mya. Any of Robert's bastards within reach she tries to murder. Why are you ignoring the text?

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes there is since we see Cersei try to kill any she can get her hands on. She kills Barra, she kills the twins at Casterly Rock, she tries to kill Gendry and she threatens to kill Mya. Any of Robert's bastards within reach she tries to murder. Why are you ignoring the text?

The twins at Casterly Rock actually seem to be a Littlefinger invention. Nobody else ever mention that they and their mother even existed.

Barra and Gendry are caught up in Ned's and Jon's investigation ... so better safe than sorry. But she never cared about Edric nor Mya - she just didn't want any of them being at court.

21 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Yes yes yes, how tragic her personal story is! Let's ignore all the pain and suffering happening across Westeros for another round of Cersei the Victorious. Curtain 1, The Marital Rapist.

I don't give shit about Cersei. She is clearly a villain. The issue I have is with childish and simplistic interpretations like 'Cersei is a monster', 'Cersei only loves herself', 'Cersei views Jaime and her children as an extension of herself', 'Cersei is like Joffrey', etc.

That's just nonsense.

[Willam Stark]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't give shit about Cersei. She is clearly a villain. The issue I have is with childish and simplistic interpretations like 'Cersei is a monster', 'Cersei only loves herself', 'Cersei views Jaime and her children as an extension of herself', 'Cersei is like Joffrey', etc.

Well it does have sense, since it is supported by the text.

The fact that you can't stand Robert and think that Cersei has a free pass to do anything she wants because she has been abused is your problem, not ours. By the way, you should stop cursing at every post, it doesn't make them more relevant.

[Craving Peaches]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The issue I have is with childish and simplistic interpretations like 'Cersei is a monster', 'Cersei only loves herself', 'Cersei views Jaime and her children as an extension of herself', 'Cersei is like Joffrey', etc.

Well take that issue up with the text (and by extension the author) since the text is what supports these interpretations.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Willam Stark said:

Well it does have sense, since it is supported by the text.

I guess if you look at things with a simple mind then, yeah.

1 minute ago, Willam Stark said:

The fact that you can't stand Robert and think that Cersei has a free pass to do anything she wants because she has been abused is your problem, not ours.

I actually do like Robert and I enjoy reading him ridiculing Jaime and giving Cersei black eyes. Robert is one of my favorite characters in the books. But he is also a whoremongering drunkard asshole and a joke as a king. I can see both. And I don't actually like Cersei but her chapters in AFfC are really a great read.

And of course Cersei is justified in her actions. He hurt her and she hurt him back harder without him even realizing what happened. I mean, think about how she destroyed Robert. No proper heirs, no legacy, no dynasty ... and then she helped the moron to kill himself. It is quite brilliant, actually, if you view it as fight between two people - which is what it was.

By the silly standards of the Westerosi patriarchy Cersei was obliged to produce legitimate children. But she successfully spat on that. Why is that bad from her point of view or from the point of view of any woman in her position?

Try to imagine being a woman of Cersei's rank and birth and then imagine you are married to fucking Robert. And then tell me you want to pop out that man's brats and perhaps die in childbirth. Would you want to do that? Then you have no self respect.

What people also don't seem to understand is that Cersei's goal is never really 'to get away with fake heirs or the twincest' ... it is the satisfaction of doing it, the satisfaction that comes with fucking Robert her way. This is not a political plan, not a power grab (like fake Aegon would be) ... it is a big 'Fuck you!' to Robert and all the other men in Cersei's life who want to control her. It is also a 'Fuck you!' to her father who pushed her into this marriage. It is even a stab at House Lannister itself as the whole thing doesn't just destabilize the 'Baratheon dynasty'.

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well take that issue up with the text (and by extension the author) since the text is what supports these interpretations.

The author doesn't view his work in such trivial, simplistic ways. 

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The author doesn't view his work in such trivial, simplistic ways.

Quote

You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they’re her children? There’s certainly a great level of narcissism in Cersei. She has an almost sociopathic view of the world and civilization.

Source: ‘Game of Thrones’ Author George R.R. Martin: The Rolling Stone Interview – Rolling Stone

[SaffronLady]

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't give shit about Cersei. She is clearly a villain. The issue I have is with childish and simplistic interpretations like 'Cersei is a monster', 'Cersei only loves herself', 'Cersei views Jaime and her children as an extension of herself', 'Cersei is like Joffrey', etc.

That's just nonsense.

That's actually not if you ever bothered to search ice and fire, but you didn't, and it shows.

[Willam Stark]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Why is that bad from her point of view or from the point of view of any woman in her position?

It's bad because she is committing treason, put herself and especially her children at risk in doing so.

And unlike us, she doesn't know what's gonna happen in the future, don't use the plot to absolve her of her crimes.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Try to imagine being a woman of Cersei's rank and birth and then imagine you are married to fucking Robert. And then tell me you want to pop out that man's brats and perhaps die in childbirth. Would you want to do that? Then you have no self respect.

I would do my duty because I wouldn't be in a modern society, the standards are not the same and it's ludicrous to apply moderns standards to my situation.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What people also don't seem to understand is that Cersei's goal is never really 'to get away with fake heirs or the twincest' ... it is the satisfaction of doing it, the satisfaction that comes with fucking Robert her way. This is not a political plan, not a power grab (like fake Aegon would be) ... it is a big 'Fuck you!' to Robert and all the other men in Cersei's life who want to control her.

No it's not, she wants power, she wants to be queen, she wants to rule and she is narcissistic.

Fucking Robert is a mean to an end : Cersei's reign.

[Odej]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Source: ‘Game of Thrones’ Author George R.R. Martin: The Rolling Stone Interview – Rolling Stone

I don't think the guy is gonna take this as a argument. He said in another post anything Martin says out of the book is not canon. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Odej

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Are people seriously defending Cersei and her actions ?

[Craving Peaches]

40 minutes ago, Odej said:

I don't think the guy is gonna take this as a argument. He said in another post anything Martin says out of the book is not canon. 

But what is in the book doesn't support their argument either.

[Lee-Sensei]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes there is since we see Cersei try to kill any she can get her hands on. She kills Barra, she kills the twins at Casterly Rock, she tries to kill Gendry and she threatens to kill Mya. Any of Robert's bastards within reach she tries to murder. Why are you ignoring the text?

Because Cersei is the hero of her own story. Everyone that opposes her is ungrateful, a bitch, peasant scum or a filthy bastard.

[Willam Stark]

28 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Are people seriously defending Cersei and her actions ?

Well, I assumed boltons are sick was the only person to defend the poor Cersei, but Lord Varys joined the boat.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering it is a stretch to actually say Robert was murdered I'm kind of wondering how Cersei wanted to murder Stannis. Perhaps by way of putting too much salt into his salted water.

In any case, she should have dealt with Stannis before he permanently moved to Dragonstone.