The Death Toll of Stannis (Serious Discussion)

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Kal-L said:

That's why his ending was unsatisfactory to me, he was never forced to ponder on whether he reached too far. He died indirectly through Varys' hand without having ever humbled. The world learned that at the end of the day Tywin Lannister was just a man, but Tywin himself never learned.

Maybe that's because he was incapable of learning it?

[Kal-L]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Maybe that's because he was incapable of learning it?

Maybe he would have been incapable of it, but who knows ? No one ever forced him to. The Targaryens were too weak and incompetent to put him to his place so all Aerys could resort to was petty humiliations that he later paid for. Robert could have put a foot down to his ambitions and his entitlements by being the greater man he was expected to be, but in the end he was never that man (and Ned understood that far too late for his own good). The war of the 5 kings could have been that moment but sadly George decided otherwise. In the end, Tywin died thinking he was some godly figure and no one was there to prove him how wrong he was, no one was able to beat hard enough to force him to come at table begging for a truce. That's what I regret most, nobody ever putting down into his heads that lions weren't superior to others and there were others being just as strong and dangerous that weren't to mess with.

Sometimes I wonder if Rhaegar would have been daring enough to pull an "Aegon V" and send Tywin immediately to the Wall if his strategy had led to Aerys's death at Duskendale (which I'm certain was his goal).

Edited September 7, 2023 by Kal-L

[csuszka1948]

4 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I feel like GRRM made a huge mistake having Stannis know about the incest babies before Ned figures it out. It makes Stannis into a much more inconsistent character who, as it's been pointed out, sits on vital info which would have averted the war if only more people had known about it. 

GRRM needed Stannis to avoid the military coup in AGOT, but he also needed someone other than Ned to know about Cersei and Robert's kids. Picking Stannis might have made sense in the moment, but I don't think it works in hindsight.

What is the other option though? I haven't seen any good solution for this particular problem.

If Ned sends someone trusted to Stannis with the information, then Robb would almost certainly join him, and that details the story.

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

51 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

Maybe he would have been incapable of it, but who knows ? No one ever forced him to. The Targaryens were too weak and incompetent to put him to his place so all Aerys could resort to was petty humiliations that he later paid for. Robert could have put a foot down to his ambitions and his entitlements by being the greater man he was expected to be, but in the end he was never that man (and Ned understood that far too late for his own good). The war of the 5 kings could have been that moment but sadly George decided otherwise. In the end, Tywin died thinking he was some godly figure and no one was there to prove him how wrong he was, no one was able to beat hard enough to force him to come at table begging for a truce. That's what I regret most, nobody ever putting down into his heads that lions weren't superior to others and there were others being just as strong and dangerous that weren't to mess with.

Sometimes I wonder if Rhaegar would have been daring enough to pull an "Aegon V" and send Tywin immediately to the Wall if his strategy had led to Aerys's death at Duskendale (which I'm certain was his goal).

Maybe GRRM could have kept him around for Dany's invasion and his story could have ended by being eaten alive by a dragon while his son Tyrion watches him begging for mercy.  I generally find this kind of death horrifying, but Tywin would have actually deserved it.

That said, Tywin's death had to be an important moment in Tyrion's story, and it was perfect for it.

Edited September 7, 2023 by csuszka1948

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Kal-L said:

Maybe he would have been incapable of it, but who knows ? No one ever forced him to. The Targaryens were too weak and incompetent to put him to his place so all Aerys could resort to was petty humiliations that he later paid for. Robert could have put a foot down to his ambitions and his entitlements by being the greater man he was expected to be, but in the end he was never that man (and Ned understood that far too late for his own good). The war of the 5 kings could have been that moment but sadly George decided otherwise. In the end, Tywin died thinking he was some godly figure and no one was there to prove him how wrong he was, no one was able to beat hard enough to force him to come at table begging for a truce. That's what I regret most, nobody ever putting down into his heads that lions weren't superior to others and there were others being just as strong and dangerous that weren't to mess with.

That man would never ever beg. He was sick with his bowels on the privy. There's no worse moment to feel little and shitty as when you have loose bowels and caught on the privy, and even in such a moment he's aggressive and arrogant.

[Lee-Sensei]

By this logic, Renly's responsible for all of the deaths, because he could have attacked the Lannisters right away instead of hosting tourneys.

@LongRider Cersei definitely considered the consequences of her actions. She just didn't care.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Arthur Peres]

Stannis could prevent the whole war of the five kings if he had just swallowed his pride and traveled to Winterfell either with Robert (like Renly did) or by himself.

Renly death is his fault but extending the war is Renly's fault.

Renly was the only party with enough strenght to finish the others, taking KL, and forcing peace on Robb on his terms with minimal concessions. Instead he took for granted the support of Dorne and Stannis, took a message of alliance from Robb and tried to send a threat, marched against his brother that was not a danger to him instead of the Lannisters and paid the price.

 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

5 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

What is the other option though? I haven't seen any good solution for this particular problem.

If Ned sends someone trusted to Stannis with the information, then Robb would almost certainly join him, and that details the story.

 

Ned sends Stannis a raven before confronting Cersei. 

[csuszka1948]

6 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Ned sends Stannis a raven before confronting Cersei. 

 

That still doesn't answer why Stannis doesn't make alliance with Robb. A raven from Ned is all the evidence he needs.

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Ned sends Stannis a raven before confronting Cersei. 

Who handles ravens in the red keep? Pycelle.

[Kal-L]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

That man would never ever beg. He was sick with his bowels on the privy. There's no worse moment to feel little and shitty as when you have loose bowels and caught on the privy, and even in such a moment he's aggressive and arrogant.

Probably, but unlike Aerys II, he was a rationale enough individual to know when his family was doomed. There are facts that can't be denied, being crushed on the battlefield, losing family members and being powerless against a foe are one of those.

His son as well thought that with a sword in hand he was god and he suffered terrible disillusion once he realized that (in his state) he couldn't do anything to Brienne, she was simply stronger than him.

At some point you can't stay in denial, facts come crashing down at your face whether you like it or not. Only Aerys II was too gone to understand that he was the king of a doomed line who would forever be remembered as the mad man who reached too far and miserably failed.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Kal-L said:

Probably, but unlike Aerys II, he was a rationale enough individual to know when his family was doomed. There are facts that can't be denied, being crushed on the battlefield, losing family members and being powerless against a foe are one of those.

His son as well thought that with a sword in hand he was god and he suffered terrible disillusion once he realized that (in his state) he couldn't do anything to Brienne, she was simply stronger than him.

At some point you can't stay in denial, facts come crashing down at your face whether you like it or not. Only Aerys II was too gone to understand that he was the king of a doomed line who would forever be remembered as the mad man who reached too far and miserably failed.

I think you're seeing this too much as a "rational learning curve".

The manner in which he doubles down with the war in the RL against Robb as well as the privy scene teach us two things:

• Tywin's life experience taught him that doubling down will make him "win"
• Tywin's instinctive response to threat even in his most vulnerable state is "fight"

The latter response is beyond anyone's control. Blood pressure lowers. Heart rate lowers. People with such a response will project an image of strength and health even while very sick in a hospital. They're also the cool minds amidst a crisis situation while everybody else is flailing around in panic mode. It's instinct. They'll feel the fear and grief and pain, later, when they're safe. That is if they are normal empathic people.

But Tywin is not a normal empathic person. He's basically someone with a chronic fight response because of his personality that goes way beyond instinct.

The point is that neither Tywin's personality or his instinct can ever allow him to be vulnerable or beg at any given moment, no matter how he actually feels inside. Even if he rationally knows he's lost everything, even if he knows he should beg, his instinct will not allow it. That's what we see on the privy. He would rather die than beg.

Edited September 8, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Floki of the Ironborn]

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Who handles ravens in the red keep? Pycelle.

Pycelle wouldn't know what's in the message, and he wouldn't dare break the wax seal and read it if Ned watched him send the raven off. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

9 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

That still doesn't answer why Stannis doesn't make alliance with Robb. A raven from Ned is all the evidence he needs.

Robb declared himself king in the north. That changes everything in regards to what Ned or Stannis might have wanted or expected. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Pycelle wouldn't know what's in the message, and he wouldn't dare break the wax seal and read it if Ned watched him send the raven off. 

He doesn't need to read the message. It's enough for him to know it's meant for Dragonstone, and Ned must tell him that in order for Pycelle to pick the correct raven.

I also don't see why you would expect Ned to watch Pycelle pick a raven and see it off. He'd just write a letter, seal it and ask Pycelle to send it when Pycelle shuffles in to visit the Hand in his tower. Pycelle just nods and say he will make sure of it and take care of it. And that's the end of it.

Ned Stark never suspects Pycelle of being other than a maester doing his duty, just like Luwin.

[Alester Florent]

17 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Ned sends Stannis a raven before confronting Cersei. 

Does he? I thought he told Fat Tom to carry a letter in person. And then of course took Tom with him to confront Cersei, where he was killed.

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Does he? I thought he told Fat Tom to carry a letter in person. And then of course took Tom with him to confront Cersei, where he was killed.

Yes, I don't understand why GRRM wrote it this way.

The story would have made far more sense if the ship with Tom and the letter and with Arya and Sansa were meant to leave mid-day on the ship and Sansa running  genuinely changed matters (as GRRM alluded to it in one of his interviews*)

 

*he said that Sansa holds some responsibility for Ned's death and that what she told Cersei (the details of their leaving with ship) was relevant, but this contradicts the text. The whole thing about Sansa running to Cersei should either be left out (like in the show - it makes little sense that she would trust Cersei so much after she ordered Lady killed), or have a real effect on the story.

Edited September 8, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

3 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Robb declared himself king in the north. That changes everything in regards to what Ned or Stannis might have wanted or expected. 

1) Multiple months pass between Robert's death and Robb being crowned King of the North. If Stannis received a letter from Ned, he would almost certainly contact Robb before it happens. (Or you have to invent a side-plot as to why the letter takes months to arrive from KL to Dragonstone)

 

2) Even if Robb was declared KoN, evidence that Ned supported Stannis would be a huge relevation which would allow Robb to swear fealty to Stannis without totally angering his Bannermen. At the very least Stannis would send Davos or someone else to the Riverlands with Ned's letter and ask Robb to pledge fealty.

 

Generally, if the information that Ned supported Stannis' claim about the incest became public, Stannis' accusations about the incest would be much more widely believed in the realm.

[sifth]

5 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

1) Multiple months pass between Robert's death and Robb being crowned King of the North. If Stannis received a letter from Ned, he would almost certainly contact Robb before it happens. (Or you have to invent a side-plot as to why the letter takes months to arrive from KL to Dragonstone)

 

2) Even if Robb was declared KoN, evidence that Ned supported Stannis would be a huge relevation which would allow Robb to swear fealty to Stannis without totally angering his Bannermen. At the very least Stannis would send Davos or someone else to the Riverlands with Ned's letter and ask Robb to pledge fealty.

 

Generally, if the information that Ned supported Stannis' claim about the incest became public, Stannis' accusations about the incest would be much more widely believed in the realm.

In the show, Ned sends Stannis a letter, sharing his plans to make him king. In the novels, Ned only sends Stannis a letter, during his first few days as hand, saying he wishes to speak with him.

[csuszka1948]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

In the show, Ned sends Stannis a letter, sharing his plans to make him king. In the novels, Ned only sends Stannis a letter, during his first few days as hand, saying he wishes to speak with him.

 

Yes, it works well in the show, where just 2 episodes pass.

I think it wouldn't work so well in the books.