SaffronLady Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 18 hours ago, Nevets said: We are not in the 21st century post-industrial West anymore. Even within the post-industrial West, isn't it still problematic to promise to marry someone, and marry someone else without prior notice? Craving Peaches and Alester Florent 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: He was proven wrong and got cheated by the Starks. And then he not only cheats them back but also totally overcompensates for his slighted pride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted September 23, 2023 Author Share Posted September 23, 2023 20 hours ago, Nevets said: Martin has said in interviews that arranged marriages were standard procedure in medieval Europe, especially among the nobility. They were very rarely broken, and usually worked out fine, or no worse than any other. He wanted this story to reflect that fact. While the prominent marriages are mostly unhappy ones in this story, that's probably because they are more interesting to write and read about. I think, overall, most are pretty good. We just don't hear about them. I think Lyanna would have been regarded more as Rickard's chattel than Robert's as such. Historically, that has been the case with offspring. Similarly, Daenerys was Viserys's to dispose of as he wished. Within reason, of course. We also have a marriage 'for love' with Doran and Mellario which did not work out well. Kal-L 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 6 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: It wasn't so much trusting the Starks. The victims of Stark betrayals trusted the honor system. Oaths are near sacred in Westeros. Walder applied the higher standards of most houses to the Starks. Walder assumed that the Starks had the honor of the average family. He was proven wrong and got cheated by the Starks. Walder never saw an oath he would not violate, if the price was right. Murdering guests at a religious ceremony is a violation of all of Westeros’ most sacred laws and customs. Kal-L, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9, kissdbyfire and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted September 23, 2023 Author Share Posted September 23, 2023 4 hours ago, SaffronLady said: And then he not only cheats them back but also totally overcompensates for his slighted pride. To be honest, I think Walder is overcompensating for more than just his pride... Constantly boasts about how many children he has Boasts about deflowering his wife (even with his advanced age) Boasts about how many wives he's had Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 4 hours ago, SaffronLady said: And then he not only cheats them back but also totally overcompensates for his slighted pride. It’s not just morally despicable to murder guests at a wedding. The fact that a wedding is a religious ceremony makes the Freys into enemies of the Gods, an extremely dangerous situation for any family to find itself in. It means that no moral guilt attaches to anyone who slays members of that family, down to the last woman and child, nor would any guilt attach to any vassal who abandoned them. What they did was not just wicked, but utterly stupid, too. Terrorthatflapsinthenight9, Prince of the North and Kal-L 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 56 minutes ago, SeanF said: It’s not just morally despicable to murder guests at a wedding. The fact that a wedding is a religious ceremony makes the Freys into enemies of the Gods, an extremely dangerous situation for any family to find itself in. It means that no moral guilt attaches to anyone who slays members of that family, down to the last woman and child, nor would any guilt attach to any vassal who abandoned them. What they did was not just wicked, but utterly stupid, too. It would be karmic justice if Arya finishes them off, but from a "power to the people" perspective I really want the poor fellows branch of the Faith Militant to kill all the Freys. The obliteration of such a powerful house by the smallfolk would shock Westeros for quite some time, and because they are espoused by the Faith, I wonder what anyone without dragons could do about them. Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted September 25, 2023 Share Posted September 25, 2023 The geographical distance and mode of transportation isolated the Winterfell. People south of moat cailin knew next to nothing about the Starks. On what basis were they to evaluate the Starks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted September 25, 2023 Share Posted September 25, 2023 51 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said: mode of transportation Doesn't everyone in Westeros use horses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted September 26, 2023 Share Posted September 26, 2023 On 9/23/2023 at 2:32 AM, SaffronLady said: And then he not only cheats them back but also totally overcompensates for his slighted pride. There was more to it than that. Walder was also trying to save his own skin. The Stark ship was sinking because Robb and Catelyn were acting the fools. The Starks were sabotaging their own chances of surviving the war because they were not thinking with their heads. Mother and son upset important allies. It was a lost cause and Walder found a way to earn what you could call a pardon for his rebellion. He has to do something useful to earn forgiveness for the crime. Crushing the Starks was the key to receiving forgiveness from Joffrey. And boy, did he crush the Starks thoroughly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted September 26, 2023 Share Posted September 26, 2023 4 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: Walder was also trying to save his own skin. Well it is general consensus that Walder Frey is a selfish backstabber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted September 26, 2023 Share Posted September 26, 2023 3 minutes ago, SaffronLady said: Well it is general consensus that Walder Frey is a selfish backstabber. Ofcourse. It is also general consensus that Robb Stark is an oathbreaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted September 26, 2023 Share Posted September 26, 2023 2 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: Ofcourse. It is also general consensus that Robb Stark is an oathbreaker. A marriage pact not sworn to the gods ... doesn't count as an oath. Yes, Robb broke a marriage pact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted September 26, 2023 Share Posted September 26, 2023 3 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: Ofcourse. It is also general consensus that Robb Stark is an oathbreaker. What oath did he break? It’s all moot, anyway. Walder Frey has condemned his own family to death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted September 27, 2023 Share Posted September 27, 2023 Moot. Yeah. Moot for the young wolf who lost his head over Jeyne. There might be a way out for Walder’s family. Arya could die before she gets to the river lands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted September 27, 2023 Share Posted September 27, 2023 11 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Arya could die before she gets to the river lands. I do hope there's an easy way out for an entire family that are criminals in the eyes of gods and men, because that is exactly what Walder Frey's family is when he and his sons and grandsons killed so many guests under his own roof. Whether Arya exacts due justice is ... well, another thing entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 On 9/26/2023 at 3:09 AM, SaffronLady said: A marriage pact not sworn to the gods ... doesn't count as an oath. Yes, Robb broke a marriage pact. Robb broke an oath to Lord Walder. Lord Walder was true to his word and his family fought for Robb. Robb, a man whose honor is worth less than soiled toilet paper, just decided he wasn't going to do what he swore to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted September 29, 2023 Author Share Posted September 29, 2023 1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: Robb broke an oath to Lord Walder. Lord Walder was true to his word and his family fought for Robb. Robb, a man whose honor is worth less than soiled toilet paper, just decided he wasn't going to do what he swore to do. How you can type this with a straight face is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 8 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: Robb broke an oath to Lord Walder. If Walder wanted that accusation, he should have made Robb swear an oath. Which he didn't. 7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: How you can type this with a straight face is beyond me. A courageous assumption. For all we know he might enjoy trolling. kissdbyfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 On 9/25/2023 at 6:34 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Doesn't everyone in Westeros use horses? Ok, fair enough. I meant to say that travel was primitive and slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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