The Fandom and Always Looking From a Male Perspective

[Fist of the Dragon]

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure why he should have to offer anything 'special'? On Dany's part this is mostly a physical relationship, so what she needs is Daario's looks and his physical body, him fucking her, basically, as she makes herself clear. It is not about anything larger or deeper than that. And it doesn't have to be.

In fact, Jon seems to also be more or less just a pretty exotic piece of meat for Ygritte. In that sense he is basically Ygritte's Daario. Their relationship is equally physical.

Yes, and did I object to this at all? Dario is what he is, standards are defined and he fulfills them for him. So they will never have any problems in bed. But in the first place, as an audience, one relationship is preferred over another, and my basis was not physics.

 

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Drogo had little to offer to Dany, actually. He never even took her seriously. He basically enjoyed her becoming a more active bought sex bunny, but that was it. He indulged her because she was supposed to give birth to the prophesied super Dothraki khal, not because he valued her opinions in their own right.

It has nothing to do with it. First of all, I didn't mention that the Drogo/Danny relationship is better than what Danny does with Dario in bed. Secondly, if Drogo was supposedly the best Kali that Dany could marry, then no distinction of such behavior can be considered for the behavior of other Dothraki (according to what we saw in the story). Now whether he loves his wife or not.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Fist of the Dragon

[csuszka1948]

7 hours ago, Fist of the Dragon said:

I don't think so. Even by today's standards, instead of being gay, the majority consider Dario's clothing and behavior to be a kind of hollow drum. Ever since I got acquainted with the song of Ice and Fire (I visited the site many times even 3 years before I joined this fandom and read the comments of many friends), I have explored many sites and fandoms related to this series. However, in most of these fandoms, the romantic relationship between the dragon queen and her flamboyant commander was considered attractive and in most cases was of little importance. And all this has nothing to do with Dario's cover or flirtations, which can be considered as homosexuality. In his relationship with Dany, he had nothing special to offer. None of the contradictions or elements that made Jon/Ygritte or Jaime/Cersei one of the most popular romances in the entire series were present in Dany/Dario. Not only was Daenerys and her thoughts instilling half of the apparent charm of this relationship to the audience, but even Dario himself actually has nothing special to offer. Whatever Drogo and his character (courage, loyalty, love, or even a little intelligence and tact) showed to the audience, he proved them in a way, but Dario either doesn't have these or he didn't prove them (at least for the reader). ). So that it even becomes suspicious for Daenerys herself at times.

 

I agree that their romance wasn't interesting and fraught with "the human heart in conflict with itself" like the Jon/Ygritte or Jaime/Cersei romance or Tyrion's relationship with Shae. Yes, Dany had to send Daario away when marrying Hizdahr, but the emotional effect of this is much smaller than the effect of Jon's betrayal of Ygritte, Shae's betrayal of Tyrion or Cersei's infidelity on Jaime.   

That said, Daario seemed to be pretty loyal to Dany. He (ironically the one advocating for war) made peace with the Lhazareen, warned Dany when she stopped holding court and was willing to give himself up as a hostage even after her marriage to Hizdahr.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 9/15/2023 at 5:39 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

For me, the bigger problem is that Daario’s appearance makes it hard to take him seriously as the cool bad boy he is supposed to be seen as.
I get that it’s a fantasy setting and many characters look fantasy-ish, but in the case of Daario it just doesn’t work. The cognitive dissonance is too big.

I think, although my experience is not unique, it is also not common, but I'm from the US originally but also lived the past decade and a half in East Asia. The difference in what is considered "attractive" may not be as obviously stark as those of Westeros or Essos are to us, but it is quite different. Maybe it is too personal, but I don't care that much, so I have a variety of traits directly considered unattractive by Western women/men, which were immediately considered attractive in East Asia : I'm very skinny, I have a thin face, I have a big nose and I have big eyes. I am quite feminine in my actions and attitudes, and I love dancing and being the center of attention in a club. In fact, as some mentioned above...Western women and men often think I'm gay. East Asian women and men though, do not. They very much see me as straight, and consider my flamboyance as attractive (in the women's case). The stark difference in my dating success between the two countries, and how people perceived me was .....a lot to take in. Even now, as I get older (and am in a lifetime partnership), there is still a difference in how people react to me. East Asian people upon seeing my partner clearly view her as "in my league", while as Western people will often say somethin glike "How'd you manage to date her?" or something suggesting she is way out of my league. Anyways, this was way off base, but to me, I guess from my own life experiences, I basically believe cultural standards can be so completely different, that I'll buy pretty much anything being called attractive in a book as long as it's not creepy. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 9/16/2023 at 3:04 AM, csuszka1948 said:

I agree that their romance wasn't interesting and fraught with "the human heart in conflict with itself" like the Jon/Ygritte or Jaime/Cersei romance or Tyrion's relationship with Shae. Yes, Dany had to send Daario away when marrying Hizdahr, but the emotional effect of this is much smaller than the effect of Jon's betrayal of Ygritte, Shae's betrayal of Tyrion or Cersei's infidelity on Jaime.   

That said, Daario seemed to be pretty loyal to Dany. He (ironically the one advocating for war) made peace with the Lhazareen, warned Dany when she stopped holding court and was willing to give himself up as a hostage even after her marriage to Hizdahr.

When laid out like this, I think it shows how people associate “bad boy” traits to surface appearances rather than actual behavior, which I think can reveal a lot. Anyways, Daario is essentially…a loyal nice guy when it comes down to his relationship with Dany lol. I probably shouldn’t keep telling stories, but I had one ex like rhat. She wore a lot of leather, drank a lot, and smoke. People called her a bad girl but she was super loyal, talked about marriage all the time, and loved quality time together. People should focus on the reality rather than appearences more eh?

[SeanF]

48 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

When laid out like this, I think it shows how people associate “bad boy” traits to surface appearances rather than actual behavior, which I think can reveal a lot. Anyways, Daario is essentially…a loyal nice guy when it comes down to his relationship with Dany lol. I probably shouldn’t keep telling stories, but I had one ex like rhat. She wore a lot of leather, drank a lot, and smoke. People called her a bad girl but she was super loyal, talked about marriage all the time, and loved quality time together. People should focus on the reality rather than appearences more eh?

That’s so.

Daario is in fact, correct that Dany needs to treat the slavers with utter ruthlessness.

[Daeron the Daring]

On 9/14/2023 at 1:04 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Here it looks like you are implying that all acts should be excused

I guess it's on me that I wasn't specific enough, and took it granted that the message comes through the way I intended.

I didn't mean to imply that acts/crimes should be disproportionately excused, but that Joffrey deserves to be treated according to his age just as well, like everyone else. 

On 9/14/2023 at 1:04 PM, Craving Peaches said:

You can excuse some acts for age and not others.

Well, if you mean that age should either be a severing or mitigating factor, then I agree.

On 9/14/2023 at 1:04 PM, Craving Peaches said:

In my opinion, at least where I live, Joffrey's age and background would probably be taken into account more when sentencing, rather than in deciding how accountable he was, because he is old enough to be considered criminally responsible (he is 13, you have to be 10 in England and Wales and 12 in Scotland).

Well, it's certainly new to me that people can be criminally charged at such young ages. I am somewhat familiar with the legal systems of a couple Eastern European countries, but when I mentioned that I would take role models from a couple developed countries, I was thinking more of Nordic countries than the UK (or God save, the US of A).

The problem is that Joffrey, in my opinion, is in fact villified too much. I laid down well enough (I think) why. We can disagree. 

But I am a hipocryte, I hate Joffrey too (as much as I can hate or love fictional characters. And it dwindles day to day. I am becoming more and more numb and indifferent to the story. It's time, and the only thing easing this is my sister having watched the show recently (I regularly drop book spoilers on her until she status reading them)). George did a good job. But I know there's a higher road, and it sounds really bad (because people hyperfocus on it, when you say it out loud), but Joffrey was a victim of many things, first and foremost her mother.

[Craving Peaches]

11 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I didn't mean to imply that acts/crimes should be disproportionately excused, but that Joffrey deserves to be treated according to his age just as well, like everyone else. 

Okay, I think I understand now. It can be hard to get things across over the internet sometimes.

11 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Well, it's certainly new to me that people can be criminally charged at such young ages.

It used to be 8(!) in Scotland but they increased it to 12 recently (I think UN recommends a higher age). Of course, people that young (at least nowadays in Scotland) have a special court process for children, they aren't subject to what an adult would be. However, in England, when two 10 year olds were charged with murder, they were put through the usual court routine...

11 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The problem is that Joffrey, in my opinion, is in fact villified too much. I laid down well enough (I think) why. We can disagree. 

But I am a hipocryte, I hate Joffrey too (as much as I can hate or love fictional characters. And it dwindles day to day. I am becoming more and more numb and indifferent to the story. It's time, and the only thing easing this is my sister having watched the show recently (I regularly drop book spoilers on her until she status reading them)). George did a good job. But I know there's a higher road, and it sounds really bad (because people hyperfocus on it, when you say it out loud), but Joffrey was a victim of many things, first and foremost her mother.

I think this all comes down to the nature vs nurture debate. There are things such as the cat incident which suggest to me that Joffrey did have something intrinsically 'wrong with him', but it is also clear that Cersei was an awful parent who imparted many bad 'lessons' onto Joffrey. Cersei, at the very least, exacerbated what was already there in a negative manner, by encouraging and rewarding Joffrey's bad behaviour. I think with a better parent Joffrey would not be so quick to act on whatever antisocial 'urges' he has, at least.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think this all comes down to the nature vs nurture debate. There are things such as the cat incident which suggest to me that Joffrey did have something intrinsically 'wrong with him', but it is also clear that Cersei was an awful parent who imparted many bad 'lessons' onto Joffrey. Cersei, at the very least, exacerbated what was already there in a negative manner, by encouraging and rewarding Joffrey's bad behaviour. I think with a better parent Joffrey would not be so quick to act on whatever antisocial 'urges' he has, at least.

That is actually quite a silly take in context as royal and noble parents are not modern parents who spend much time with their children. Joff's ugly behavior was fueled by the scum around him - people like the Hound - and not his own parents, father or mother. They would have mostly ignored him and his siblings.

These people do have lives, they don't define themselves by spending time with children. For that they have servants - septas, septons, maesters, grooms, knights, etc.

Of course, we can assume that Cersei did take an active interest when punishments came up - like after the cat incident. And both she and Robert would have gotten reports from the people they left their children with.

But the notion that Joff actually did spend much time with his mother or was particularly negatively influenced by her is actually not in the books.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But the notion that Joff actually did spend much time with his mother or was particularly negatively influenced by her is actually not in the books.

My impression is that Cersei doted on Joffrey and never held him accountable for anything, even the incident with the pregnant cat.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Okay, I think I understand now. It can be hard to get things across over the internet sometimes.

It used to be 8(!) in Scotland but they increased it to 12 recently (I think UN recommends a higher age). Of course, people that young (at least nowadays in Scotland) have a special court process for children, they aren't subject to what an adult would be. However, in England, when two 10 year olds were charged with murder, they were put through the usual court routine...

I think this all comes down to the nature vs nurture debate. There are things such as the cat incident which suggest to me that Joffrey did have something intrinsically 'wrong with him', but it is also clear that Cersei was an awful parent who imparted many bad 'lessons' onto Joffrey. Cersei, at the very least, exacerbated what was already there in a negative manner, by encouraging and rewarding Joffrey's bad behaviour. I think with a better parent Joffrey would not be so quick to act on whatever antisocial 'urges' he has, at least.

In Abingdon, in the 17th century, a boy of 9 was hanged, for setting fire to a barn.  The magistrate concluded he possessed "malice, cunning and intent."

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the notion that Joff actually did spend much time with his mother or was particularly negatively influenced by her is actually not in the books.

Yes it is.

We know Cersei has had a big influence on Joffrey because he takes all her words (of bad advice) to heart, and they have a similar (bad) personality.

Quote

You," his sister Cersei said in a tone that was equal parts disbelief and distaste.

"I can see where Joffrey learned his courtesies."

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Aye," her uncle said, "and from what I saw of Joffrey, you are as unfit a mother as you are a ruler."

Why would Kevan say this if Cersei just left Joffrey to be raised by servants?

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Cersei would say it was a lie. My sweet sister, the deceiver. He would need to find some way to winkle Tommen from her clutches before the boy became another Joffrey. 

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And Cersei … the golden child had grown into a vain, foolish, greedy woman. Left to rule, she would have ruined Tommen as she had Joffrey.

We also know Cersei forbade Robert from disciplining Joffrey, and that Joffrey was ignored by Robert, but we never see Cersei portrayed as ignoring Joffrey in the way Robert does.

I mean, Joffrey cries for his mother when he is hurt. Would someone ignored by their mother have that reaction?

Quote

Joffrey made a scared whimpery sound as he looked up at her. "No," he said, "don't hurt me. I'll tell my mother."

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He chopped down with his hand, a furious, angry gesture . . . and screeched in pain when his arm brushed against one of the sharp metal fangs that surrounded him. The bright crimson samite of his sleeve turned a darker shade of red as his blood soaked through it. "Mother!" he wailed.

...

Joff fell into his mother's arms.

We see during AGoT that Cersei is instructing Joffrey what to do with Sansa and so on. Yes, Joffrey doesn't always follow Cersei's advice, but he never ignores her. He often defers to her for advice on what to do:

Quote

Treason is treason," Pycelle replied at once.

Joffrey rocked restlessly on the throne. "Mother?"

Cersei Lannister considered Sansa thoughtfully. "If Lord Eddard were to confess his crime," she said at last, "we would know he had repented his folly."

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King Joffrey's face hardened. "My mother tells me that it isn't fitting that a king should strike his wife. Ser Meryn."

There's loads of other moments which indicate Joffrey and Cersei are close, e.g.:

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 Cersei Lannister and her son stood beside him. The queen had her hand on Joffrey's shoulder. 

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The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. 

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"Your brother defeated my uncle Jaime. My mother says it was treachery and deceit. She wept when she heard. Women are all weak, even her, though she pretends she isn't..."

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Cersei put a protective hand on her son's shoulder.

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A king had to be strong. Joffrey would have argued. He was never easy to cow. 

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 And there was Joff as well, her son, her firstborn, her beautiful bright boy with his golden curls and his sweet smile, he had such lovely lips, he …

Also, Renly wanting to separate Joffrey from Cersei further hints that Cersei is negatively influencing Joffrey.

There's also nothing to suggest Cersei left Joffrey to be raised by servants. We don't actually see that many noble children raised like this despite what you say. Ned raises all his children, for example. Hoster seems to have been hands on, as is Lysa, Randyl, etc. Yes, servants and tutors would have been educating Joffrey but that does not equate to him being raised by them. Look at the way Cersei refers to Joffrey. Now no one is saying that Cersei spent all the time a contemporary mother might, but to say she just left him to be raised by servants conflicts with what the text says or implies.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Joff's ugly behavior was fueled by the scum around him - people like the Hound - and not his own parents, father or mother.

And who exactly lets him keep the Hound around? His parents. Cersei assigned the Hound to Joffrey...

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

These people do have lives, they don't define themselves by spending time with children.

People can have lives and still spend time with their children, you know.

Your idea that Cersei had barely any/no negative influence on Joffrey is contradicted by the text.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is actually quite a silly take in context as royal and noble parents are not modern parents who spend much time with their children. Joff's ugly behavior was fueled by the scum around him - people like the Hound - and not his own parents, father or mother.

I don't think it's silly at all. In fact, I think @Craving Peaches is correct. Kids still pick up on the behaviors of their parents even when they're not around that often. Especially when they witness violence, be it verbally or visually. And we know of one time where Robert hit Joffrey. And we also get the idea that Joffrey idolized his father. He craved his attention, and while Robert did have the time to give him proper attention, he chose not to.

Quote

"Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn’t just talk."

Robert himself acknowledges that he failed in his fatherly role. Because despite having duties to the realm, he has a duty to his children. Every monarch does. And Robert was lazy when it came to his courtly/kingly duties. He handed the governing of the realm to Jon Arryn and his council. He definitely had time for his "children".

Quote

A half smile flickered across the queen’s face. "Robert's trueborn son and heir. Though Joff would cry whenever Robert picked him up. His Grace did not like that. His bastards had always gurgled at him happily, and sucked his finger when he put it in their little baseborn mouths. Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved."

So we have a boy who idolized an irresponsible, neglectful, alcoholic father who was physically abusive to Cersei. We have a boy who has an arrogant and vain mother who lets him get away with poor behavior. It's fair to say that negative influence came from other places, but I feel like George greatly holds Cersei and Robert responsible for how Joffrey turned out.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes it is.

We know Cersei has had a big influence on Joffrey because he takes all her words (of bad advice) to heart, and they have a similar (bad) personality.

Their personality is nothing alike. Cersei is a woman with a temper, Joffrey has sadistic tendencies and is a coward at heart. Cersei is no coward.

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

We also know Cersei forbade Robert from disciplining Joffrey, and that Joffrey was ignored by Robert, but we never see Cersei portrayed as ignoring Joffrey in the way Robert does.

So you think Robert actually beating his son bloody is a proper way to rear children? Cersei was right to defend her boy against the drunken brute. That said - they should have done something about the cat incident. But good luck with that.

The book never gives us a private scene with Joff and Cersei together, so it is huge stretch to assume she spend much time with him or had a good relationship with him. Yes, she takes his side, defends him ... but that doesn't mean they are close or spend much time together. In fact, with Joff it likely means the opposite and that Cersei doesn't really know the brat.

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I mean, Joffrey cries for his mother when he is hurt. Would someone ignored by their mother have that reaction?

He has a closer relationship with his mother than his father that is clear ... but, you know, his mother is the Queen Regent during the reign. She rules his name so it is kind of obvious he would defer to her most of the time. Especially since his dad is, you know, dead.

Joffrey and Cersei are a team by circumstances once he becomes king ... but there is no evidence Cersei hung around Joffrey all day while Robert was still alive. Of course, they are closer at Winterfell and during the journey, riding in the wheelhouse, etc. But in the Red Keep Joff does his own things, Tommen and Myrcella, too, just as Arya and Sansa do. Because their father has a life of his own and a rather taxing job. They see each other for meals, that's it.

We have to differentiate between Joffrey as king and the time before. And for the time before we have no confirmation for Cersei doting on Joffrey or fueling his bad tendencies.

In fact, Joff's role model clearly was his image of Robert. Him trying to impress Robert led to his scheme with the Valyrian steel dagger, for instance. Robert was the one who said somebody should kill Bran, not Cersei. Robert is also the one who teaches Joff the wrong lesson from the Mycah incident - 'You let a little girl disarm you!' That taught Joff that has to stand up and crush potential enemies, i.e. be even crueler than he was before.

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, Renly wanting to separate Joffrey from Cersei further hints that Cersei is negatively influencing Joffrey.

LOL, what? Renly wants to seize the government.

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

There's also nothing to suggest Cersei left Joffrey to be raised by servants. We don't actually see that many noble children raised like this despite what you say. Ned raises all his children, for example.

No, Ned is the Lord of Winterfell. The castlefolk raise his children. He and Cat are the lord father and the lady mother of the children - distant and comparatively cool. Yes, there are family moments, but Robb is the only one who spends real quality time with Ned - because he is the heir. The others spend more time with their septa, the maester, the master-at-arms, etc. Arya and Sansa do needlework with other girls under the supervision of a servant whilst their mother lives her own life.

And with royal children it would be more of the same.

Read the books - Tommen effectively doesn't feature in AFfC because Cersei doesn't spend much time with him. To be sure, it might be a bit different with Joff, but how little they see each other can be drawn from how easily the boy is manipulated by Littlefinger, Tyrion, etc. His mother has no tight leash on him at all.

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Hoster seems to have been hands on, as is Lysa, Randyl, etc.

Lysa is a madwoman, to be sure. Randyll grooms his heir, he doesn't spend time with children.

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, servants and tutors would have been educating Joffrey but that does not equate to him being raised by them. Look at the way Cersei refers to Joffrey. Now no one is saying that Cersei spent all the time a contemporary mother might, but to say she just left him to be raised by servants conflicts with what the text says or implies.

What I'm objecting to is that Joff could have possibly picked up many bad habits from Cersei because they didn't spend much time with each other ... and because Joff's bad habits have literally nothing to do with Cersei's. Cersei is not innately sadistic, doesn't drink much to impress little girls, doesn't enjoy the KG to beat up hostages (something Cersei was apparently never told anything about...), doesn't like to cut peasants to impress girls, doesn't cut up cats to check out the kittens inside, etc.

Joff is basically an asshole kid who knows he is momma's favorite and that she will always defend him. And he exploits that. That's it.

Cersei's own bad tendencies only come out after she started to rule in Joff's and Tommen's name. Earlier she lacked the power to do much.

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

And who exactly lets him keep the Hound around? His parents. Cersei assigned the Hound to Joffrey...

Sure enough - in that way she is to be blamed. But also Robert who would have had the final say in that matter. It is clear that Joff is surrounded by Lannister men who fuel is bad tendencies, for example at Winterfell.

32 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I don't think it's silly at all. In fact, I think @Craving Peaches is correct. Kids still pick up on the behaviors of their parents even when they're not around that often. Especially when they witness violence, be it verbally or visually. And we know of one time where Robert hit Joffrey. And we also get the idea that Joffrey idolized his father. He craved his attention, and Robert did have the time to give him proper attention, but he chose not to.

Most of Joff's bad tendencies come from the twisted image he has of Robert. For example, Robert teaching him to not allow little girls to disarm him, Robert teaching him that murdering crippled boys is a good thing because it puts them out of their misery, Robert's example of the victory at the Trident - which Joff admires - is also a glorious feast of gore and death.

It is easy to imagine that Joff executing Ned is something he thought Robert would also do in his place. Acting boldly, showing strength - as he tells Tywin when he stands up to the old man.

32 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

He himself acknowledges that he failed in his fatherly role. Because despite having duties to the realm, he has a duty to his children. Every monarch does.

Most historical and living monarchs would deny that. They have servants for this kind of thing still.

32 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

So we have a boy who idolized an irresponsible, neglectful, alcoholic father who was physically abusive to Cersei. We have a boy who has an arrogant and vain mother who lets him get away with poor behavior. It's fair to say that negative influence came from other places, but I feel like George greatly holds Cersei and Robert responsible for how Joffrey turned out.

It is actually wrong that Robert was physically abusive towards Cersei before AGoT when Jaime was away. He raped her sometimes at night ... but the children wouldn't have witnessed that. It is a big castle and they have their own apartments.

As we see with, for instance, the Sansa beating stuff - we yet don't know if Cersei was even told about this. The Hand, Tyrion, wasn't - he just witnessed it once and then put a stop to it. We have also no clue how often Cersei was told about incidents where Joff misbehaved in a small to medium manner. If I worked for her I'd not do it, knowing she wouldn't want to hear this. We see what pathetic lackeys are in their employ. The Hound, for instance, enjoys fueling Joff's bad traits at Winterfell. He would never be snitch to mommy or daddy. And many other servants and men-at-arms would act similarly.

Even as Queen Regent Cersei is almost the last court dignitary to learn of her own father's murder. That shows us how much she is touch with things at the peak of her power.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Their personality is nothing alike.

Then why do characters make numerous references to how similar they are?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

So you think Robert actually beating his son bloody is a proper way to rear children?

No. Why do you assume this? It just indicates that it was Cersei who had primary influence on Joffrey, not Robert.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And for the time before we have no confirmation for Cersei doting on Joffrey or fueling his bad tendencies.

Aside from the fact that multiple people think Cersei ruined Joffrey and that wouldn't be the sort of thing to happen within the few months he was King with Cersei as regent.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, what? Renly wants to seize the government.

LOL, the point is that Renly thinks Joffrey without Cersei is not going to act in the same manner, i.e. not an obvious psycho, so Renly/Ned/whomever actually has a chance to raise them well and to be biddable (or at least to not be a psycho). If Cersei wasn't enabling Joffrey's negative traits, Renly would not suggest trying to rule through him, he would want to get rid of him, because he'd be an uncontrollable sadist.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

He and Cat are the lord father and the lady mother of the children - distant and comparatively cool.

They are not though, that is nearly the opposite of what we see in the text. Ned goes out ridding with his sons, Catelyn comes to check on her daughters when they are with the Septa. Ned spends quite a lot of time with Sansa and Arya in King's Landing despite being Hand of the King. Catelyn spends lots of time with Robb.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The others spend more time with their septa, the maester, the master-at-arms, etc. Arya and Sansa do needlework with other girls under the supervision of a servant whilst their mother lives her own life.

Yes, the children  have other people around them, doesn't mean the parents spend barely any time with their own children.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Tommen effectively doesn't feature in AFfC because Cersei doesn't spend much time with him.

What? Tommen is featured plenty. Cersei is constantly comparing him unfavourably to Joffrey. Cersei doesn't spend all her time with him, sure, but she spends quite a lot - she goes on about how she needs to teach him to rule and stuff.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

... and because Joff's bad habits have literally nothing to do with Cersei's.

Okay, but people actually in-universe think otherwise.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei is not innately sadistic,

Strongly disagree here. She abused Tyrion when she was only seven, talks about having people flogged and leaves her friend to drown when she was only ten, has no qualms having people killed, tortured, mutilated etc. - in many cases she defaults to such methods.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

doesn't enjoy the KG to beat up hostages

Yeah, she goes a step further and just has them kill people she doesn't like.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

doesn't drink much to impress little girls,

She drinks heavily because she wants to.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei's own bad tendencies only come out after she started to rule in Joff's and Tommen's name.

Disagree due to all the bad things we are shown she did in childhood.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is clear that Joff is surrounded by Lannister men who fuel is bad tendencies, for example at Winterfell.

And who do you think assigned those Lannister men?

Edited September 18, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The book never gives us a private scene with Joff and Cersei together, so it is huge stretch to assume she spend much time with him or had a good relationship with him.

You are just fishing for props by this point. How about you dig the books and find textual support that Joff was always a pawn, a power access tool, for Cersei? Or even that she doesn't give a damn about her son, watching him grow up distantly and nonchalantly?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

We know Cersei has had a big influence on Joffrey because he takes all her words (of bad advice) to heart, and they have a similar (bad) personality.

It also seems to me that Cersei was much more fond of Joffrey than Tommen, for whatever reason.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It also seems to me that Cersei was much more fond of Joffrey than Tommen, for whatever reason.

Yep, she thinks Tommen is meek and disappointing compared to Joffrey.

Quote

Tommen did as he was bid. His meekness troubled her. A king had to be strong. Joffrey would have argued. He was never easy to cow. 

Quote

Tommen considered that. "I . . . I used to go away inside sometimes," he confessed, "when Joffy . . ."

"Joffrey." Cersei stood over them, the wind whipping her skirts around her legs. "Your brother's name was Joffrey. He would never have shamed me so."

[Odej]

27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

They are not though, that is nearly the opposite of what we see in the text. Ned goes out ridding with his sons, Catelyn comes to check on her daughters when they are with the Septa. Ned spends quite a lot of time with Sansa and Arya in King's Landing despite being Hand of the King. Catelyn spends lots of time with Robb.

Catelyn remembers sometimes she would go to Sansa's room a night and brushed her hair instead let the job to Sansa's handmaid. This is a big thing for that society and is really cute too. Bran also remembers Ned telling him and his siblings stories.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Odej

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yep, she thinks Tommen is meek and disappointing compared to Joffrey.

I guess she tries to take after Tywin in that the only thing that matters is strength, regardless of one's moral compass.

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Then why do characters make numerous references to how similar they are?

They don't. They reference that Cersei is a bad influence on Joffrey ... which is true. But Joff is nothing like Cersei.

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

No. Why do you assume this? It just indicates that it was Cersei who had primary influence on Joffrey, not Robert.

I'd say Robert ignoring Joffrey had a bigger impact on him. Joff has no interest in emulating or impressing Cersei - he manipulates and exploits her because he knows he is her favorite. 

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Aside from the fact that multiple people think Cersei ruined Joffrey and that wouldn't be the sort of thing to happen within the few months he was King with Cersei as regent.

And those people are 'experts' on parenting? Tyrion and Kevan are no experts on those topics. It is classic misogyny to blame the mother for how her son or other children turned out.

And the notion that sweet and nice Tommen could ever be 'ruined' by Cersei is ludicrous. Kevan is most likely the most absent father and husband in the entire book series - his wife Dorna spends the entire series separate from him at Lannisport. His son Lancel was sent as a squire to court. Other sons were squires with other knights. None was with their father. Kevan cares for Lancel when he is injured, to be sure, but the person Kevan loves and lives for is Tywin, not his own family.

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

LOL, the point is that Renly thinks Joffrey without Cersei is not going to act in the same manner, i.e. not an obvious psycho, so Renly/Ned/whomever actually has a chance to raise them well and to be biddable (or at least to not be a psycho). If Cersei wasn't enabling Joffrey's negative traits, Renly would not suggest trying to rule through him, he would want to get rid of him, because he'd be an uncontrollable sadist.

That seems to be fantasy on your part. Renly wanted to control the royal children to run the government. Cersei is his and Ned's rival for the regency. He doesn't care about Cersei's influence on Joff, he wants to be who runs things.

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

They are not though, that is nearly the opposite of what we see in the text. Ned goes out ridding with his sons, Catelyn comes to check on her daughters when they are with the Septa. Ned spends quite a lot of time with Sansa and Arya in King's Landing despite being Hand of the King. Catelyn spends lots of time with Robb.

Ned eats with his daughters in KL and they have formal godswood rituals. And he has one deep talk with Arya, that's it. He ignores Sansa which is why she can betray him. He has no clue what's going on in her mind. Which he should and would if he was a father wanting to be close with his daughter.

Ned has one riding session with his sons in AGoT - to an execution. That is a lesson to noble children, not family time. 

It is also quite striking that Arya barely remembers or thinks about her mother in all her chapters.

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, the children  have other people around them, doesn't mean the parents spend barely any time with their own children.

Comparatively less than the people they hire and pay to deal with their children. Which inevitably means that they spend more time with them and thus have a larger influence on their personality development.

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

What? Tommen is featured plenty. Cersei is constantly comparing him unfavourably to Joffrey. Cersei doesn't spend all her time with him, sure, but she spends quite a lot - she goes on about how she needs to teach him to rule and stuff.

No, Tommen is a footnote in her chapters. They go to the Great Sept together, they have meals together, and Cersei knocks him down when he bothers her with Tyrell nonsense. But he is not really a main character in her chapters. And why should he be? He is a child.

His absence is a sign how present Myrcella and Joffrey would have been in Cersei's earlier life. Sure enough, as Queen Regent she has even more to do ... but the job of a queen is also not easy and it doesn't include waking around and talking to preteen children. That is boring as hell.

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Okay, but people actually in-universe think otherwise.

Doesn't mean they are right.

I mean - sure, Cersei is not exactly the ideal regent for Joff. Robert is right there. But Cersei is not the reason Joff has sadistic tendencies. That's part of his nature, not the result of her parenting. In fact, Robert may have pushed this more as he beat up little Joffrey which could have traumatized him.

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Strongly disagree here. She abused Tyrion when she was only seven, talks about having people flogged and leaves her friend to drown when she was only ten, has no qualms having people killed, tortured, mutilated etc. - in many cases she defaults to such methods.

Tyrion was a monstrous child which murdered her mother. Tywin believes that, too, so it is no surprise that his daughter loathes the freak. It is actually quite surprising that Jaime likes him.

I'm not sure you understand how sadism works. Joff really likes to watch people suffering ... and he likes to hurt people himself, with his own hands. We see that with Mycah and with Sansa, etc.

Cersei doesn't enjoy violence in this manner. Not at all. If she did, she would join Qyburn in his dungeons, she would watch people getting flogged or mutilated, she would feel horny and satisfied after raping Taena ... but there is nothing there of that sort. She is just empty. And she doesn't want to think about what happened to Falyse or her servant.

Cersei is a product of Tywin - and Tywin is a stern lord who flogs and mutilates people. She emulates him in this regard, seeing it as a sign of strength.

Cersei also doesn't remember the (apparent) murder of Melara fondly - like a real sadist would.

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yeah, she goes a step further and just has them kill people she doesn't like.

People she views as a threat.

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

She drinks heavily because she wants to.

LOL, that happens in AFfC after she went through a lot. You guys don't get the structure of the story, do you? The Cersei of AFfC isn't the woman we meet in AGoT.

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

And who do you think assigned those Lannister men?

Cersei and Robert. But they are not those people and they don't spend as much time with their children. Also, Tommen and Myrcella would be surrounded by similar people and they turned out to be alright ... so the problem is more Joff's nature not his upbringing in any case. If Cersei was this super bad example/parent who wields a lot of influence over her children then Tommen and Myrcella should be rotten, too.

12 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

You are just fishing for props by this point. How about you dig the books and find textual support that Joff was always a pawn, a power access tool, for Cersei? Or even that she doesn't give a damn about her son, watching him grow up distantly and nonchalantly?

I never said Cersei wasn't invested in Joff at all. But it is quite clear that she doesn't really know her son, not truly. She seems to be honestly ignorant about his bad traits.

The notion that Cersei is (mainly) responsible for how Joff turned out is pretty much ludicrous. She would have had some influence, but not as much as people here claim she had.

12 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It also seems to me that Cersei was much more fond of Joffrey than Tommen, for whatever reason.

Joff is clearly her favorite child ... but that doesn't mean all that much in the larger context. He was the eldest, after all, the one who would be king one day.

12 hours ago, Odej said:

Catelyn remembers sometimes she would go to Sansa's room a night and brushed her hair instead let the job to Sansa's handmaid. This is a big thing for that society and is really cute too. Bran also remembers Ned telling him and his siblings stories.

Ned is no completely absent dad - but he is a noble father which means he spends little time with his children despite the fact they all live in the same castle. That is just a fact. And the concept of parenthood in this world is a medieval one, not a modern one.

Which means children are treated like little adults, there is no childhood the way modern children have it. I mean, the Starks embody that to a ridiculous degree with shit like having seven-year-olds watch their dad decapitate people and three-year-olds being told they won't be three forever.

Cat brushed Sansa's hair because she liked how beautiful it and that daughter was - I don't think that is cute at all but a an unpleasant sign of undeserved favoritism Cat is also guilty with in her feelings for Bran. Yes, parents have favorites, but that's nothing to celebrate.