The Fandom and Always Looking From a Male Perspective

[Nevets]

With regard to Cersei, I am unwilling to try and psychoanalyze someone who not only can't be examined, but isn't even real.  That's probably an exercise in futility.

I will say that I regard her as evil, cruel, narcissistic, and a malign influence on everyone around her.  The best response is to avoid her if you can and contain her if you can't avoid her.  Ugh!  I'll be happy when she's gone.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

For what it's worth, GRRM thinks the reader can question whether Cersei really loves her children. He also said Cersei has an 'almost sociopathic view of the world':

‘Game of Thrones’ Author George R.R. Martin: The Rolling Stone Interview – Rolling Stone

Yes, we cannot say for sure that she is a sociopath, but I think there is enough evidence that you could make a strong case for it. Because she repeatedly treats people who are supposed to be her friends with intense cruelty, and enjoys it. And she does this at a young age. She essentially tortures baby Tyrion when she is just seven years old, around the same time she decides to initiate the incestuous relationship with Jaime despite knowing it is very wrong, at only ten she is threatening to have people killed, flogged etc. and she either pushes her friend down a well or leaves her to die there... Even leaving aside all the horrible things she did as an adult, she seems to have no empathy or remorse. She treats people like disposable objects rather than actual human beings.

She also did not care for him to the degree that she slept with Jaime on their wedding day... Before Robert did anything.

He uses the word narcissist (which is what I am arguing for) in the same quote, which again…makes my point for me. 

6 hours ago, sifth said:

I view Cersei as possibly the worst mother in the series, who only views her children as an extension of herself. In the books Cersei doesn't even seem aware of Joff's true nature and just feels it's perfectly normal, whenever he does something evil. At least the show, made her more self aware of Joff's true nature. Plus in the books this is a woman perfectly fine with killing babies, so long as they were Robert's bastards. Not a whole lot of humanity in someone like that.

Okay this is exhausting. I don‘t even disagree with you all, but you are refusing to read what I am actually arguing. It’s seriously exhausting. How can I be more clear : Cersei is one of the worst people in the series. I agree. She is a horrible mother. I agree. I think you all are using the word sociopath wrong. I am arguing over WHICH personality disorder she has, NOT whether she is evil/a bad mother. Did you’ll know someone can love their children AND be a bad mother? 

Also Euron is a father. The worst parent in the series is obviously Euron. He rips the tongues out of his children’s head and treats them as slaves. Honestly, the fact that y’all keep saying just as evil, tells me we are not having the same conversation. I don’t think Cersei is as evil as others because she doesn’t specifically want to hurt others. She wants other things and she hurts others to get those things. I think Tywin, Ramsay, and Euron all get off on the pain of others. They WANT to hurt others and cause pain. Ramsay want it on an individual level. He likes torturing people. Like he really likes it. Euron likes it both on an individual level (I think he enjoys tormenting individuals very much) and also on a grand level, where he sees death and destruction as the goal rather than the unfortunate side effect.

Tywin, while on the surface appears similar to Cersei, I think underneath he is basically Euron. He also gets off on causing destruction + he wanta everyone to bow down to him just like Cersei does. Also, Tywin was perfectly fine with Joffrey dying. I want to point out this KEY difference. Tywin is okay with or even maybe actively likes Tyrion dying and Joffrey dying. Cersei doesn’t want her children to die. Maybe that seems too basic, but she actually cares whether they live or die. I think there is a scene toward the end of AFfC where it is clear she wants to see Tommen because she wants to see Tommen. If you want to make the argument that is merely because ahe wants to be loved…okay I guess. But at least she wants that. Tywin doesn’t give a shit. 

So to summarize again : I think Cersei is a top 5 evil character in these books. I think she is naricisstic and gives 0 shits about 98% of the human population. HOWEVER, she does slightly care. She has some (if very small) empathy for a few people. For that matter, I think Tywin does, too. Tywin is my most hated character in the series, and I STILL don’t think he is a sociopath (honestly the word itself is vague and doesn’t even have on concrete or even accepted definition). However, and this is important, I do not think Cersei is AS EVIL as Ramsay, Euron, or even Tywin, as I don’t think she enjoys torture, she merely doesn’t care. She is indifferent to their feelings or the pain she causes. She doesn’t kill Robert’s bastards because she lieks killing, she merely wants to remove a threat to her children and cares less about their lives. Ramsay, Euron, and Tywin all ENJOY suffering and death and WANT to cause it. They get off on the pain and suffering of others. Ramsay could care less about the greater struggle or some greater goal, he just enjoys torturing Theon. Euron has no greater plan or importance to torture and kill Aeron, he juat likes making Aeron suffer. Finally, Tywin gained nothing through Elia Martell’s death, but she made his daughter look foolish, so he wanted her “punished”. Same for Tysha (and Tyrion). The punishment was obviously meant to humiliate and torture both parties, and Tywin liked it. 

Honestly though, all y’all, we fundamentally agree. Please stop arguing like I am disagreeing with you. I am not. I agree with on 99% of the details, just not the wording. We are arguing over semantics basically. 

 

One edit : She is 100% an abuser with Jaime. As someone who survived…several abusive relationships (my father and one ex). It’s complicated. One of the hardest parts to deal with…was that they did actually love me but that did not mean they didn’t abuse me. Both can be true. I think Cersei does love Jaime in a way, just super outlandishly self-centered in how she loves him. Maybe you could say she loved what he gave her…but I’d argue she loved the idea of him too (not the reality, Jaime is very different then how…all of his family perceives him). 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He uses the word narcissist (which is what I am arguing for) in the same quote, which again…makes my point for me. 

Okay this is exhausting. I don‘t even disagree with you all, but you are refusing to read what I am actually arguing. It’s seriously exhausting. How can I be more clear : Cersei is one of the worst people in the series. I agree. She is a horrible mother. I agree. I think you all are using the word sociopath wrong. I am arguing over WHICH personality disorder she has, NOT whether she is evil/a bad mother. Did you’ll know someone can love their children AND be a bad mother? 

Also Euron is a father. The worst parent in the series is obviously Euron. He rips the tongues out of his children’s head and treats them as slaves. Honestly, the fact that y’all keep saying just as evil, tells me we are not having the same conversation. I don’t think Cersei is as evil as others because she doesn’t specifically want to hurt others. She wants other things and she hurts others to get those things. I think Tywin, Ramsay, and Euron all get off on the pain of others. They WANT to hurt others and cause pain. Ramsay want it on an individual level. He likes torturing people. Like he really likes it. Euron likes it both on an individual level (I think he enjoys tormenting individuals very much) and also on a grand level, where he sees death and destruction as the goal rather than the unfortunate side effect.

Tywin, while on the surface appears similar to Cersei, I think underneath he is basically Euron. He also gets off on causing destruction + he wanta everyone to bow down to him just like Cersei does. Also, Tywin was perfectly fine with Joffrey dying. I want to point out this KEY difference. Tywin is okay with or even maybe actively likes Tyrion dying and Joffrey dying. Cersei doesn’t want her children to die. Maybe that seems too basic, but she actually cares whether they live or die. I think there is a scene toward the end of AFfC where it is clear she wants to see Tommen because she wants to see Tommen. If you want to make the argument that is merely because ahe wants to be loved…okay I guess. But at least she wants that. Tywin doesn’t give a shit. 

So to summarize again : I think Cersei is a top 5 evil character in these books. I think she is naricisstic and gives 0 shits about 98% of the human population. HOWEVER, she does slightly care. She has some (if very small) empathy for a few people. For that matter, I think Tywin does, too. Tywin is my most hated character in the series, and I STILL don’t think he is a sociopath (honestly the word itself is vague and doesn’t even have on concrete or even accepted definition). However, and this is important, I do not think Cersei is AS EVIL as Ramsay, Euron, or even Tywin, as I don’t think she enjoys torture, she merely doesn’t care. She is indifferent to their feelings or the pain she causes. She doesn’t kill Robert’s bastards because she lieks killing, she merely wants to remove a threat to her children and cares less about their lives. Ramsay, Euron, and Tywin all ENJOY suffering and death and WANT to cause it. They get off on the pain and suffering of others. Ramsay could care less about the greater struggle or some greater goal, he just enjoys torturing Theon. Euron has no greater plan or importance to torture and kill Aeron, he juat likes making Aeron suffer. Finally, Tywin gained nothing through Elia Martell’s death, but she made his daughter look foolish, so he wanted her “punished”. Same for Tysha (and Tyrion). The punishment was obviously meant to humiliate and torture both parties, and Tywin liked it. 

Honestly though, all y’all, we fundamentally agree. Please stop arguing like I am disagreeing with you. I am not. I agree with on 99% of the details, just not the wording. We are arguing over semantics basically. 

One edit : She is 100% an abuser with Jaime. As someone who survived…several abusive relationships (my father and one ex). It’s complicated. One of the hardest parts to deal with…was that they did actually love me but that did not mean they didn’t abuse me. Both can be true. I think Cersei does love Jaime in a way, just super outlandishly self-centered in how she loves him. Maybe you could say she loved what he gave her…but I’d argue she loved the idea of him too (not the reality, Jaime is very different then how…all of his family perceives him). 

Roberts bastard was the daughter of a whore. She was absolutely no threat to her children (who were created out of spite to steal the throne, because she's power hungry). If it had been Edric, you might have had a point (although that would still be monstrously evil). Barra was definitely not a threat to her. She just wanted to wipe out the entire family, because she's spiteful and malicious.

I definitely agree that Euron is a worse person though. Ramsay might be too. I don't think Tywin is necessarily. Tywin's just had more unchecked power, so he's been able to act on his cruelty in bigger ways.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Nevets]

I think of Tywin as a consummate Machiavellian.  He does what he thinks is necessary to accomplish his goal; a goal that is related to maintaining the power and prestige of his house, land or country.

His actions have a purpose.  We may not like the purpose, and his methods can be cruel and vindictive, but he does what he feels works best for the situation at hand .  If generosity works, he'll use that, but he is perfectly willing to be cruel.  But his cruelty isn't so heavy or widespread that he's regarded as a tyrant.  He doesn't generally go looking for trouble or someone to hurt, but mess with him or his house and watch out.

Don't get me wrong; I really do not like the guy.  Sometimes I even despise him.  But his actions always have a purpose and are rational, even if horrible.

[sifth]

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I definitely agree that Euron is a worse person though. Ramsay might be too. I don't think Tywin is necessarily. Tywin's just had more unchecked power, so he's been able to act on his cruelty in bigger ways.

Tywin is such a weird case. He's a horrible, horrible man, who's done some of the worst things in the series, but even then I can actually find one or two redeeming qualities about him. Like how he pardoned the River Lords, when Joff wanted to murder them all......................I know it doesn't come close when you think about all of the people he's directly and indirectly killed or his monstrous treatment of women, but at least a crumb of humanity exists in the man. Ramsay, Gregor and Euron by comparison have nothing; they're just monsters and people follow them, because the plot requires it.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

23 minutes ago, sifth said:

Tywin is such a weird case. He's a horrible, horrible man, who's done some of the worst things in the series, but even then I can actually find one or two redeeming qualities about him.

I don’t think Tywin has any redeeming qualities per se, but I find it hard to hate him because he is a “stoic badass” right up until Tyrion’s final chapter in ASOS.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Lee-Sensei]

50 minutes ago, sifth said:

Tywin is such a weird case. He's a horrible, horrible man, who's done some of the worst things in the series, but even then I can actually find one or two redeeming qualities about him. Like how he pardoned the River Lords, when Joff wanted to murder them all......................I know it doesn't come close when you think about all of the people he's directly and indirectly killed or his monstrous treatment of women, but at least a crumb of humanity exists in the man. Ramsay, Gregor and Euron by comparison have nothing; they're just monsters and people follow them, because the plot requires it.

Tywin pardoned the Lords to be pragmatic, but you're right. It's kind of funny though. In ASOS, this is what Tywin says about pardoning your enemies.

Quote

"Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you."

Then in AFFC, Cersei says this.

Quote

Robert should have scoured the isles after Balon Greyjoy rose against him, Cersei thought. He smashed their fleet, burned their towns, and broke their castles, but when he had them on their knees he let them up again. He should have made another island of their skulls. That was what her father would have done, but Robert never had the stomach that a king requires if he hopes to keep peace in the realm.

Gregor did pardon the cook as I mentioned and is in constant pain. Ramsy has no real good deeds that I can think of, but he had a really shitty life. Euron has nothing though. Not only is he a monster, but he grew up as the son of one of the greatest Lords in Westeros and was sexually abusing and killing his own siblings from birth. The Greyjoys would have been better off if they'd really drowned him.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

But his actions always have a purpose and are rational, even if horrible.

This is the main difference I see between Tywin and Cersei. Cersei does not seem to really consider the consequences of her actions beyond perhaps the short-term gain they will bring her.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Gregor did pardon the cook as I mentioned and is in constant pain. Ramsy has no real good deeds that I can think of, but he had a really shitty life. Euron has nothing though. Not only is he a monster, but he grew up as the son of one of the greatest Lords in Westeros and was sexually abusing and killing his own siblings from birth. The Greyjoys would have been better off if they'd really drowned him.

Agree. Gregor clearly has something wrong with his pituitary gland and is addicted to opiates, Ramsay at least has a Freudian excuse of his father not being there for him when he was young or something, Euron has absolutely nothing.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think of Tywin as a consummate Machiavellian.  He does what he thinks is necessary to accomplish his goal; a goal that is related to maintaining the power and prestige of his house, land or country.

His actions have a purpose.  We may not like the purpose, and his methods can be cruel and vindictive, but he does what he feels works best for the situation at hand .  If generosity works, he'll use that, but he is perfectly willing to be cruel.  But his cruelty isn't so heavy or widespread that he's regarded as a tyrant.  He doesn't generally go looking for trouble or someone to hurt, but mess with him or his house and watch out.

Don't get me wrong; I really do not like the guy.  Sometimes I even despise him.  But his actions always have a purpose and are rational, even if horrible.

I think Tywin wants you (and everyone else) to think this, and I think he is full of shit. I am not saying his actions don't have purpose...but technically so do Cersei's (she just is not very...smart I guess...but she does have a purpose, it just...is a ridiculous purpose particularly in AFfC). I think he is just cruel though. I think he enjoys cruelty just like Gregor or Euron or Ramsay...the only difference is he also loves control. He essentially is obsessed with control. And part of that control is appearing to not like/enjoy the cruelty and violence he inflicts. 

Also, I don't think his actions are always rational. Like, really, seriously, is having a bunch of guards rape your son's wife rational. I'm sorry, it's not. Is parading your father's mistress around naked after he dies because you hate her rational? Again, no, it's not. Heck...is hating Tyrion rational? No, it's not. It's born completely of emotion, and in fact, an irritational set of emotions. Tywin is not rational all the time. He pretends to be. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

14 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think Tywin wants you (and everyone else) to think this, and I think he is full of shit.

I see what you did there.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

10 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Roberts bastard was the daughter of a whore. She was absolutely no threat to her children (who were created out of spite to steal the throne, because she's power hungry). If it had been Edric, you might have had a point (although that would still be monstrously evil). Barra was definitely not a threat to her. She just wanted to wipe out the entire family, because she's spiteful and malicious.

I definitely agree that Euron is a worse person though. Ramsay might be too. I don't think Tywin is necessarily. Tywin's just had more unchecked power, so he's been able to act on his cruelty in bigger ways.

I mean, honestly though do we have any quotes about it, I can't remember. However, I am reading Cersei's chapters in AFfC right now. I don't know what to tell you, but...she is paranoid about everything and everyone all the time. You are right, the bastards were no threat to her....but neither is Mace Tyrell (who she has accused of being a threat like 5 times in this chapter), Margerry Tyrell (who she goes on to try to destroy the life of later in this book), or Kevan Lannister (yes, she in her own mind suspects Kevan of betraying her). Like, I went ahead and did more research due to other comments here about personality disorder, and Cersei has essentially every symptom of paranoid personality disorder. You can say she wouldn't see Barra as a threat...but every single part of her own POV chapters...suggest she would. Unlike Tywin, we actually see into Cersei's mind...and I am 100% sure, even if she killed them partially to be vindicitive...it was also because she was paranoid and saw them as a threat. 

Also, Catelyn sees Jon as a threat, but doesn't she think Jon's mom is Wylla or ,...did she think she is Ashara Dayne, I honestly can't remember. Anyways, we also see her mind, and I don't think she is really paranoid at all...and she still sees Jon as a threat. People see their husband's bastards as threats, even if they aren't really. 

[Alester Florent]

17 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Also, Catelyn sees Jon as a threat, but doesn't she think Jon's mom is Wylla or ,...did she think she is Ashara Dayne, I honestly can't remember. Anyways, we also see her mind, and I don't think she is really paranoid at all...and she still sees Jon as a threat. People see their husband's bastards as threats, even if they aren't really. 

Jon is a potential threat because he has been raised as a son by Ned in his own household. Even though he may not be noble-born, he might as well have been because he's had that upbringing and is a Stark in all but name - and of course looks like a Stark in a way that her sons don't. And because he's older than Bran and Rickon, in the event something happens to Robb he's in a position to attempt to usurp their rightful inheritance, especially if Robb insists on treating him like an actual brother, as he does. A legitimised Jon and his descendants, something which Robb seems to want to make happen, is equally a potential threat to Robb's heirs, Blackfyre-style.

None of this applies to Gendry or Bella or Barra or any of Robert's unnamed bastards, because he hasn't acknowledged them and because they don't have the position or the contacts to challenge Joffrey or Tommen. 

Mya and Edric are another matter, because Robert was considering bringing Mya to court and openly acknowledging her. Even so, she is a girl, so not really a threat to Joff or Tommen per se (although if something happened to both of them, a married Mya could present a threat to Myrcella's inheritance). Edric is an actual acknowledged, noble-born son of similar age to Joffrey who could easily be legitimised and present an actual threat, especially since (as we and she know) Edric is actually Robert's son and Joff and Tommen aren't.

Of course it's not great for Cersei to have too many of Bob's acknowledged bastards running around in plain sight because of the family-resemblance issue and associated potential suspicion, which is another reason it's a problem for Bob to acknowledge Mya and bring her to court. But in addition to this, one might surmise that her threat directed at Mya was not just her usual paranoia, spite and cruelty, therefore, but also intended to shut down the possibility of Robert's bringing the rather more dangerous Edric to court. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Equilibrium]

Do I hate "Fans are (negative X) and some, I assume, are good people" threads. Firstly they are intrinsically bad, you don't even have to look at the argument and secondly they are factually incorrect as it is the case here. 

There is no such thing as fandom as you present it, in any group of people you will find wide range of opinions but those are the opinions of individuals that can be addressed as such. In my decades in fandom I don't recall a single individual who "read the books wrong" in the way you presented here, I'm not claiming that they do not exist but observational data of my representative sample points to the fact they are not a large percentage. Even if they were they would not be representative of fandom, even if such thing existed. 

 1) Some people here dislike Daenerys and will interpret everything pertaining to Daenerys in a negative way. Is it possible that some fraction of those people dislike Daenerys because she is female, yes, but I would argue against ascribing anyone that label based on the discourse on that topic alone.

2) Again, considerable amount of people dislikes Sansa, I dislike Sansa very much while liking other female characters very much like Arya or Arianne. But I empathize, I really do which is part of why I dislike her chapters (I dislike her as a character too, but I dislike Cersei as a character and consider her chapters among the best in the series) Sansa's chapters have an issue of being both very traumatic and very boring, inconsequential even, pacing is off and all blame goes to GRRM, not me or any other fan. On the other hand even bigger proportion of people adores Tyrion, I am not one of those people, but they do, I doubt it's because he is male. Now take Venn diagram and it's bound to be some people who will have very biased view of Sansa Tyrion relationship because they both dislike Sansa and adore Tyrion.

3) Even though I've never encountered that particular argument, it's established that POVs are unreliable and as such you can't ascribe motivation for doubting the POV to sexism just because character is female and subject is rape. Particular subject is especially thorny because of several issues, but not to derail the conversation I will just point out that when that particular discussion was in the vogue, faction of Cersei stans was very obnoxious with Freudian excuses, so you might be "reading the posts wrong"

4) I honestly don't see the coherent argument here aside from rehashing previous three and some really tangential musings, but I highly doubt considerable number of people interpret the underlying message of ASOIAF as "people should just get in line with their society's codes of gendered actions" because a) it would be really hard to get the text to agree with that interpretation b) Large numbers of fans, I would dare to even say large percentages of fans love the characters of Arya, Brienne, Samwell just to name the few which most certainly don't "get in line with their society's codes of gendered actions"

Edited October 4, 2023 by Equilibrium

[Alester Florent]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I do wonder to what extent our perception of the characters and their actions is coloured by the world that GRRM has created. Westeros is highly patriarchal as a society, in which all the ostensibly important people are men, where masculine virtues are prized, and where taking actions, resolving problems and generally behaving properly tends to manifest in a fairly masculine way. And women are to an extent "locked out" of this course of action because of societal expectations. 

As a result, for women to have agency, they are much more likely to have to resort to unorthodox, "underhand" methods than are the male characters, which in turn affects the way we view them. Women who behave honourably and in the way their society expects make very boring and quite annoying characters, because we're frustrated about their (in)action and acceptance of the unsatisfactory society (Sansa being the prime example). On the other hand, women who outwardly accept societal norms while simultaneously working to subvert them in order to exercise their own agency draw our ire for, essentially, not playing fair (Cersei). Similarly, those who accept societal norms both outwardly and inwardly most of the time but occasionally take actions outside their prescribed wheelhouse without consulting the men (Cat). And then you have Daenerys and Arya who reject societal norms outwardly but still get criticism for not "playing fair" or behaving honourably in the way that they deal with enemies, because they don't have the physical strength or prowess to do so as one would expect of a man. 

The most consistently popular female POV, I think, is the one who approaches issues in the way that (Westerosi) society expects of a man, i.e. Brienne. In order to criticise Brienne one has to buy into Westerosi patriarchal principles openly and consciously as an analyst rather than just passively and subconsciously as a reader.

On the other hand it's much easier for a male character to be effective and have agency while staying in their lane. 

I'm not wholly convinced by this myself, I must admit. Tyrion is something of a fan-favourite character (albeit far from universally) and he is far from a typical Westerosi male. But there may be something in it, something which is inherent in the setting and the way the story is being told, and not necessarily just because the fanbase is inherently somewhat misogynist. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Equilibrium said:

Do I hate "Fans are (negative X) and some, I assume, are good people" threads. Firstly they are intrinsically bad, you don't even have to look at the argument and secondly they are factually incorrect as it is the case here. 

There is no such thing as fandom as you present it, in any group of people you will find wide range of opinions but those are the opinions of individuals that can be addressed as such. In my decades in fandom I don't recall a single individual who "read the books wrong" in the way you presented here, I'm not claiming that they do not exist but observational data of my representative sample points to the fact they are not a large percentage. Even if they were they would not be representative of fandom, even if such thing existed. 

 1) Some people here dislike Daenerys and will interpret everything pertaining to Daenerys in a negative way. Is it possible that some fraction of those people dislike Daenerys because she is female, yes, but I would argue against ascribing anyone that label based on the discourse on that topic alone.

2) Again, considerable amount of people dislikes Sansa, I dislike Sansa very much while liking other female characters very much like Arya or Arianne. But I empathize, I really do which is part of why I dislike her chapters (I dislike her as a character too, but I dislike Cersei as a character and consider her chapters among the best in the series) Sansa's chapters have an issue of being both very traumatic and very boring, inconsequential even, pacing is off and all blame goes to GRRM, not me or any other fan. On the other hand even bigger proportion of people adores Tyrion, I am not one of those people, but they do, I doubt it's because he is male. Now take Venn diagram and it's bound to be some people who will have very biased view of Sansa Tyrion relationship because they both dislike Sansa and adore Tyrion.

3) Even though I've never encountered that particular argument, it's established that POVs are unreliable and as such you can't ascribe motivation for doubting the POV to sexism just because character is female and subject is rape. Particular subject is especially thorny because of several issues, but not to derail the conversation I will just point out that when that particular discussion was in the vogue, faction of Cersei stans was very obnoxious with Freudian excuses, so you might be "reading the posts wrong"

4) I honestly don't see the coherent argument here aside from rehashing previous three and some really tangential musings, but I highly doubt considerable number of people interpret the underlying message of ASOIAF as "people should just get in line with their society's codes of gendered actions" because a) it would be really hard to get the text to agree with that interpretation b) Large numbers of fans, I would dare to even say large percentages of fans love the characters of Arya, Brienne, Samwell just to name the few which most certainly don't "get in line with their society's codes of gendered actions"

You have badly misunderstood my intentions and thoughts. 

Edit : Also, I think this thread had some good conversations/takes/etc. So, in my opinion, my topic was a success. 

P.s. Also, if you took this personally.....ummm, it wasn't directed as you as I don't believe I've ever even interacted with you. But honestly, it wasn't directed at anyone here. I think the fandom on this site is actually quite progressive/nuanced in their takes, and the reddit ASOIAF community is honesty where I see the worse/more sexist takes. Not to say I have seen none of the things I talked about here...but firstly...as I said, I think most of it is unintentional, and secondly, calling out casual mysigony is not an attack bro. It's okay, none of us are perfect. I make mistakes all the time. Learning about how I might see something a wrong way is just a chance to grow. Finally...your first two points have almost nothing to do with what I talked about. I am not calling everyone who dislikes Daenerys, Cersei, or Sansa sexist, nor do I think they are. You just made up a strawman argument. Did you even read what I wrote? Your third point : Nope. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

I haven't read the whole thread, but I do wonder to what extent our perception of the characters and their actions is coloured by the world that GRRM has created. Westeros is highly patriarchal as a society, in which all the ostensibly important people are men, where masculine virtues are prized, and where taking actions, resolving problems and generally behaving properly tends to manifest in a fairly masculine way. And women are to an extent "locked out" of this course of action because of societal expectations. 

As a result, for women to have agency, they are much more likely to have to resort to unorthodox, "underhand" methods than are the male characters, which in turn affects the way we view them. Women who behave honourably and in the way their society expects make very boring and quite annoying characters, because we're frustrated about their (in)action and acceptance of the unsatisfactory society (Sansa being the prime example). On the other hand, women who outwardly accept societal norms while simultaneously working to subvert them in order to exercise their own agency draw our ire for, essentially, not playing fair (Cersei). Similarly, those who accept societal norms both outwardly and inwardly most of the time but occasionally take actions outside their prescribed wheelhouse without consulting the men (Cat). And then you have Daenerys and Arya who reject societal norms outwardly but still get criticism for not "playing fair" or behaving honourably in the way that they deal with enemies, because they don't have the physical strength or prowess to do so as one would expect of a man. 

The most consistently popular female POV, I think, is the one who approaches issues in the way that (Westerosi) society expects of a man, i.e. Brienne. In order to criticise Brienne one has to buy into Westerosi patriarchal principles openly and consciously as an analyst rather than just passively and subconsciously as a reader.

On the other hand it's much easier for a male character to be effective and have agency while staying in their lane. 

I'm not wholly convinced by this myself, I must admit. Tyrion is something of a fan-favourite character (albeit far from universally) and he is far from a typical Westerosi male. But there may be something in it, something which is inherent in the setting and the way the story is being told, and not necessarily just because the fanbase is inherently somewhat misogynist. 

Honestly, this is exactly the kind of nuanced take that I loved about this thread. - @Equilibrium

Also, is Brienne popular? I always assumed she wasn't, but maybe either I was wrong, or it changed. She is my second favorite character, but I thought I was in a minority, lol. Yay, Brienne! 

[Alester Florent]

18 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestly, this is exactly the kind of nuanced take that I loved about this thread. - @Equilibrium

Also, is Brienne popular? I always assumed she wasn't, but maybe either I was wrong, or it changed. She is my second favorite character, but I thought I was in a minority, lol. Yay, Brienne! 

I don't actually know how "positively" popular Brienne is, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone expressing hate or negativity towards her, which makes her pretty much unique among major POVs...

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I don't actually know how "positively" popular Brienne is, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone expressing hate or negativity towards her, which makes her pretty much unique among major POVs...

I mean she is perfect. So, yeah. Lol, jk, but she is morally...very good. She is always trying to do the right thing, and she protects people from bad people. Just maybe hard to hate? Although we don't really talk about the Dunk and Egg books here, I would hasten to guess Ser Duncan the Tall would also get very little hate. The scene where he punches Aerion Targaryen...might be the most satisfying moment in these books for me. Like, these books repeatedly show is this horrible horrible unjust and unfair society, and everyone lets these horrible lords get away with horrible things, and then Duncan just punches Aerion, and of course, kicks him a bunch after that. I love it. So cathartic. 

[Equilibrium]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You have badly misunderstood my intentions and thoughts. 

Edit : Also, I think this thread had some good conversations/takes/etc. So, in my opinion, my topic was a success. 

P.s. Also, if you took this personally.....ummm, it wasn't directed as you as I don't believe I've ever even interacted with you. But honestly, it wasn't directed at anyone here. I think the fandom on this site is actually quite progressive/nuanced in their takes, and the reddit ASOIAF community is honesty where I see the worse/more sexist takes. Not to say I have seen none of the things I talked about here...but firstly...as I said, I think most of it is unintentional, and secondly, calling out casual mysigony is not an attack bro. It's okay, none of us are perfect. I make mistakes all the time. Learning about how I might see something a wrong way is just a chance to grow. Finally...your first two points have almost nothing to do with what I talked about. I am not calling everyone who dislikes Daenerys, Cersei, or Sansa sexist, nor do I think they are. You just made up a strawman argument. Did you even read what I wrote? Your third point : Nope. 

Why would I take it personally, I'm the top tier feminist here. As for the justification of the calling out I'm sure it just wins hearts and minds wherever you go, but I would advise next time you try and educate specific persons in regards to specific incidents.

I wouldn't consider this misspelled version of "The Some People on Reddit and Always Looking From a Male Perspective" to be a success either morally or instrumentally, among other things because it's here where we are all nice and progressive and not on Reddit where the rapscallions in question are so they will never get the chance to learn and grow.

Oh no, no, no, did you read what I wrote? I couldn't call that curt dismissal of yours a straw argument because it's not an argument. How you contorted my reply to your first two points to mean "you are calling everyone who dislikes a female character sexist" is truly beyond my reasoning capabilities and I don't say that often. And how you didn't address my really pertinent reply to your fourth point... haven't I earned at least another "Nope"?

 

[Alester Florent]

37 minutes ago, Equilibrium said:

Why would I take it personally, I'm the top tier feminist here.

Uhhh...

Seriously?