How would the fandom feel about a time jump during or after TWOW?

[Bendric Dayne]

6 hours ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

I think he´s already past the point where a time gap would make sense.

There´s some plotlines he just can´t stop right now.

Or can anyone imagine a line like "And after Aegon took Storms End he sat down in his reclining chair and sipped cocktails for 5 years before continuing his campaign."

I mean, I think he can write a few chapters to get some characters/plotlines to a place where a time jump makes sense. Like with your example, GRRM can establish in just one chapter that YG is setting up a siege in Storms End, leaving a few of his forces there for the siege, while taking the rest of his force to take more small castles in the Reach and Stormlands. We leave him there, and when we see him again, after the time jump, he's coming back to the siege of Storm's End when it's coming to an end because his forces have starved out the castle with the time that has passed. So he'll basically just negotiate a surrender of the castle. There they can establish which castles YG got a hold of during that time. Plus Arianne will likely ally Dorne with YG's cause. So in only 2 chapters, GRRM can establish how YG basically has control of the Reach (or parts of the Reach), the Stormlands, and Dorne; setting YG up for his conquest of KL in a way that shows he has formidable forces and power to do so. I'd prefer to get into more detail and see the battles and everything play out, but there just isn't enough space in the book for all of that. In the end, we're more interested in what YG will do in the overarching plot of the books (in other words, we want to see what he'll do in KL and how that will affect the other major players like Cersei, and Dany, and the rest of Westeros), so I'd prefer to have enough time for that part than for the set up, since there isn't enough space for both. Ideally, GRRM could spend as much time as he wants with each character and plotline, no matter how many books it takes, but to fit everything into only 2 books there might have to be compromises. 

[Alester Florent]

Honestly, I think while there is a fixation on GRRM's comments that he originally planned a time skip, the suggestion that we need a timeskip now is largely redundant because the events of AFfC and ADwD were, largely, the events that would have otherwise been skipped. We're now reaching the end of the long period of "skippable events" and back into more rapid progression of the plot. At least, I think so.

So at this point I don't believe a time skip would be necessary or desirable. Or that GRRM is considering one.

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Honestly, I think while there is a fixation on GRRM's comments that he originally planned a time skip, the suggestion that we need a timeskip now is largely redundant because the events of AFfC and ADwD were, largely, the events that would have otherwise been skipped. We're now reaching the end of the long period of "skippable events" and back into more rapid progression of the plot. At least, I think so.

So at this point I don't believe a time skip would be necessary or desirable. Or that GRRM is considering one.

Yes, but it also feels like TWOW would need to move at least at the pace AGOT did to have the story fit into a frame we are told we are getting.

The sample chapters don't indicate anything resembling that. In fact, we should expect a lengthy resolution of events that spen just a couple days. 

And frankly, not many plots feel like shrugging them off with almost nothing is adequate: Meereen, The Wall, King's Landing, Winterfell.

Not to mention George doesn't aim at adequate.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Bendric Dayne]

51 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Honestly, I think while there is a fixation on GRRM's comments that he originally planned a time skip, the suggestion that we need a timeskip now is largely redundant because the events of AFfC and ADwD were, largely, the events that would have otherwise been skipped. We're now reaching the end of the long period of "skippable events" and back into more rapid progression of the plot. At least, I think so.

So at this point I don't believe a time skip would be necessary or desirable. Or that GRRM is considering one.

I agree that a time jump now, is unnecessary, but I disagree that it would be redundant. A time jump could help the story out in a few ways. If done right, I think it would be desirable for how it would help the story. I prefer the story without a time jump, and hope that GRRM can finish the story without rushing through events. However, if he has to do one or the other, I prefer he does a time jump that skips over some details, so that we spend more time in the ending, as opposed to rushing through the rest of the story. 

Also, I don't think a time jump after ASOS would have skipped over the events of AFFC and ADWD. I think it would have just moved them over so they'd be after the time jump when some of the characters would be more grown up and experienced. GRRM ended up not doing it because some characters were not in a position in which a time jump would make sense and so he'd have to do too many flashbacks on the next books. And yeah that's still the case now, a lot of characters are not in a position in which a time jump makes sense, but a lot of characters are also in a position where GRRM would have to rush through events to end their stories. So he could spend the first half of TWOW getting characters to a place where a time jump makes sense, and the second half after the time jump. So characters like Dany would maybe have like 5 or 6 chapters in the first half of the book to get her to a place where a time jump makes sense, but characters like Sam or Arya would only have one chapter establishing how they are in training. After the time jump, they're all trained up and ready to go for the final act. It's not perfect, but it could work. 

Looking back at it, what would have made more sense, would have been for the time jump to have taken place after AFFC. Since a lot of characters were in a place where a time jump made sense after ASOS, and since AFFC already excludes half the characters, AFFC should have only had characters who needed to do stuff that got them to a place where a time jump made sense. Like basically, Cersei and Sam could stay the same in that book. Only with a time jump after the book, it is established that Sam spent 5 years training at the Citadel, and Cersei 5 years imprisoned by the Faith since Jaime abandoned her and no one can save her. Characters, like Jon, Dany, and Bran would not have been in the book, and would only have been in ADWD with everything essentially being the same, only now they are five years older with much more experience. 

In the end, I'm not advocating that we absolutely need or even should get a time jump in TWOW. We should get the best conclusion to the story possible. IMO the best conclusion does not have a time jump, and covers all the events at a reasonable pace, no matter how many books it takes. However, the best conclusion of the series in the space of only 2 books might include a time jump. Hopefully GRRM can finish the story without a time jump and without it feeling rushed in only 2 books but we'll have to wait and see. 

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

4 hours ago, Bendric Dayne said:

I mean, I think he can write a few chapters to get some characters/plotlines to a place where a time jump makes sense. Like with your example, GRRM can establish in just one chapter that YG is setting up a siege in Storms End, leaving a few of his forces there for the siege, while taking the rest of his force to take more small castles in the Reach and Stormlands. We leave him there, and when we see him again, after the time jump, he's coming back to the siege of Storm's End when it's coming to an end because his forces have starved out the castle with the time that has passed. So he'll basically just negotiate a surrender of the castle. There they can establish which castles YG got a hold of during that time. Plus Arianne will likely ally Dorne with YG's cause. So in only 2 chapters, GRRM can establish how YG basically has control of the Reach (or parts of the Reach), the Stormlands, and Dorne; setting YG up for his conquest of KL in a way that shows he has formidable forces and power to do so. I'd prefer to get into more detail and see the battles and everything play out, but there just isn't enough space in the book for all of that. In the end, we're more interested in what YG will do in the overarching plot of the books (in other words, we want to see what he'll do in KL and how that will affect the other major players like Cersei, and Dany, and the rest of Westeros), so I'd prefer to have enough time for that part than for the set up, since there isn't enough space for both. Ideally, GRRM could spend as much time as he wants with each character and plotline, no matter how many books it takes, but to fit everything into only 2 books there might have to be compromises. 

Maybe he could do it that way, but that was just one example.

What about Stannis, the Wildlings at the wall, Danys army, Brienne... ?

There´s no way to put all of these story strings into lockdown anymore.

[sifth]

I almost feel like a time jump is needed to get Dany to the west. It seems like a very far trip for her and honestly one she probably should have started on by now.

[hodortargaryen]

On 11/18/2023 at 6:35 AM, Ingelheim said:

Martin himself has said a few days ago that he has 1100 pages written, which is the same amount he mentioned in October of last year (https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/17wync0/spoilers_extended_grrm_mentions_winds_in_a/)

He isn't writing much these days, no matter how badly we would want him to.

He's also mentioned they are working on a lot of spin-offs with HBO. He seems to be far more focused on TV now than books.

We have to be realists, if we actually get Winds that will be an achievement in itself

I'm trying to find the update you mentioned from 'a few days ago.' Can you provide a link?

[Ingelheim]

28 minutes ago, hodortargaryen said:

I'm trying to find the update you mentioned from 'a few days ago.' Can you provide a link?

It was a month ago, not days, my bad. Still, he's not made much progress this year

https://streamable.com/vgir65

[Bendric Dayne]

4 hours ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

Maybe he could do it that way, but that was just one example.

What about Stannis, the Wildlings at the wall, Danys army, Brienne... ?

There´s no way to put all of these story strings into lockdown anymore.

I mean, I could argue that wrapping up all of those storylines without rushing through them in just 2 books is just as hard or harder. And it's probably one of the main reasons why GRRM is struggling. I'm hoping that he can write the conclusion to the series without rushing through and without a time jump, but it's very difficult and a time jump is the better option if he has to do one of the two IMO. It isn't as good as actually writing all of the events that should happen in the last 2 books, but it could work. Maybe like this?:

I'm thinking a two year gap about halfway through Winds. The first half would be dedicated to getting some characters into positions where a time gap makes sense, or to wrapping up some character plotlines. The second half of the book kicks off the final act of the series with all characters already in place for their conclusions. 

Stannis- Depends on how much longer GRRM plans for him to be in the story. If he does not die in the battle of winter, then it could make sense for him to hide in Winterfell for two years while others think he's dead. Or if he wins the first battle but chooses not to lay siege on Winterfell he hides somewhere else, like White Harbor with his new allies: the Manderlys. Or GRRM dedicates more Stannis chapters to the beginning of the book in order to wrap up his story before the time jump if he doesn't have much else to do. 

Wildlings- A bit trickier to predict since it isn't clear what GRRM has planned for them. Maybe they take over the Night's Watch outraged by Jon's death. They keep Melissandre around since they know she's working with Mance. Jon is resurrected. They let the rest of the Wildlings north of the Wall pass through. Depending on the outcome of the battle with Stannis, they choose either to march south or stay in the Wall. If Stannis is in Winterfell Jon and the wildlings join forces with him there and stay there for the time gap. Or the snows force them to stay in the Wall for the duration of the time gap. It's not perfect, but to be fair a lot depends on the outcomes of Jon's and Stannis's stories which can both go a few different ways. 

Dany- (Probably the main reason a time gap would be beneficial). She gathers the Dothraki to her cause and returns to the aftermath of the Battle of Mereen. She meets Tyrion, Marwyn, and Victarion and makes deals with them in order to add them to her cause. Now with Victarion's fleet she declares her intentions to liberate the cities of Essos and to return to Westeros. The time gap happens. Her fleet is on her way to Westeros as she recalls the swift conquests of Yunkai, Astapoor, Lys, Pentos, and Volantis (maybe Braavos as well), and how easy they were with her dragons. This way she can already be on her way to Westeros by the start of the second half of TWOW. 

Brienne- This one is tricky, but either she and Jaime get imprisoned for two years while the brotherhood plots how they'll use Jaime to blackmail the Lannisters/Freys. Or she and Jaime escape the brotherhood and spend 2 years looking for Sansa. So after the gap, Brienne can recount how she and Jaime searched here and there, followed this clue and that clue, but have not found her yet. Maybe now they are following one last clue without any real hope of finding her, and this ends up being the one that leads to Sansa. 

I'll still concede to your point and say that it isn't perfect, but idk maybe it could work. How much does it fix? It's hard to tell. Maybe when we get the book, if events are rushed, we'll have our answer. Hopefully not though. 

[Bendric Dayne]

3 hours ago, sifth said:

I almost feel like a time jump is needed to get Dany to the west. It seems like a very far trip for her and honestly one she probably should have started on by now.

Yeah Dany is what prompted me to ask this question. Some other characters are far from where they have to be for the final act, but at least one can guess that the next thing they'll do once they finish what they are doing is to take steps towards getting there. And those steps are not so much to think it's impossible to fit them in a reasonable number of chapters. But with Dany... Jesus. There's so much she has to do to get to Westeros, not to mention everything she is supposed to do once she gets there, and she's just messing around with vision quests in the Dothraki sea??? Like girl get your sh*t together and make your way to Westeros, what are you doing??

[Mithras]

A time jump after TWoW is not only possible but also necessary at this point.

[Aebram]

Maybe, instead of one big time jump, the story can use lots of little ones to cover the ground. There's already been quite a bit of that; many days or weeks often elapse between two consecutive chapters of a character's POV. And I'm reminded of that Bran chapter in Dance where "the moon was fat and full ... the moon was a crescent ... the moon was a black hole in the sky..." IIRC if you add them all up, there's about 2 months that pass during that one chapter.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Aebram

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Mithras said:

A time jump after TWoW is not only possible but also necessary at this point.

We have no idea at what point in the story TWoW will even end. This seems entirely premature.

[Mithras]

5 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

We have no idea at what point in the story TWoW will even end. This seems entirely premature.

TWoW should end in a way that makes such a time jump possible, just like ASoS was meant to be. If TWoW doesn't come out like that, the series would never be finished anyway.

[Craving Peaches]

We've waited so much longer already though so there could be no big time jump...